I've actually been trying to think of how to slot Hallownest into Creation.I am however, one hundred percent sure that the Charms I'll be posting soon are because I've been playing Hollow Knight.
General Exalted Thread
Touch of Sepia
Artisan of the Vital Tincture
- Location
- Connecticut
Theme creep - that's all the pole of Wood. Leave the Dragonbloods something.
If you are everything, then you are nothing. I've seen for a decade, hard core solar players claim that every great person is a Solar. No one is a Solar, anyone can be a Solar - the thing is the themes of Sol Invictus and the charms that such essence allows. Order, Law, Stasis - then people want to give them winds/water/fire/earth and the powers of Mr. Universe besides. Bend reality (Raksha) and control Time (Sacheverell). When you can do everything - you are nothing. Nothing has meaning.
See, I see drama and a shipwreck as a great story. The Odyssey is huge on those and all the stories that come out of them. A worse story is:
1) huge storm
2) handwave perfect - what a non-threat that storm or any storm *yawn*
3) continue to next destination with no threat what so ever
I mean from my experience - most ST's do suck. Other than games I've run - my luck has placed me in the hands of ST's who killed the game within 3 months. However, the rules as written makes it hard to run the game, hard to find players with a like-way of playing, and hard for people to actually try to play or adapt themselves to those demands. I feel 75% of the people I see on forums have never played the game - they just jump through the mind experiment of the game.
Good literature involves threats, rising tempo and believability (suspense of disbelief). The issue is that sometimes writers captured this and sometimes they did not (looking at you Perfect, talking about making scores of Essence shields and factory manses, wtf.)
That is the problem of a work made by so many writers with different visions. Players pick what vision they like from a plethora and run with it. So writers looked at the themes and told cool stories of challenges and failures (the comic, the death of the newborn solar and the endless and almost pointless struggles of the Alchemicals, the tragedy of Marama's Fell) and others spoke to the mechanics (Mass produced artifacts, self-automated manses, and anything involving Mnemon).
Storytelling is literature given breath - there is good literature and bad literature...needless to say the same goes for breath.
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So it's more mechanically tight than the prior one and thus will cause flamewars as people who enjoyed the gonzo action of the prior editions dislike the more sedate default assumptions of this version?
More like Born Killer Mastery. Or Bourne Killer Mastery.
If you use a pen with this charm, and you defeat someone wielding a sword using it, do you get to say "the pen is mightier than the sword?"
This doesn't have Weapon-In-All-Things Mastery as a prerequisite, and honestly it could have its word count cut down significantly by removing the Obvious keyword and rephrasing it as so:
"This charm enhances a specific mundane or improvised weapon carried by the Solar, allowing the Solar to treat it as its closest equivalent 1-3 dot orichalcum artifact weapon. While this charm is active, the Solar owns the weapon, and the weapon is as durable as an artifact. When the weapon is readied in combat, the charm becomes Obvious."
notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
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This isn't theme creep, man. This is a little bit of overlap.
The things you're complaining about bear... literally no resemblance to the post you're quoting.
You're right - it's deliberate that they're not prerequisites. They're down thematically different paths. A player would usually only want to buy one of them, because one of them is about weaponising everything you find and the other is about turning one weapon into something competitive with artefacts. The former is a whirl of destruction turning everything in a tea house into a weapon; the latter is the swordsman master who kills a man with a bokken because his mind is like a blade and so everything is a sword in his hands. The former has to break the weapons so you always have to be picking up new things; the latter can't break the weapons or it's useless for its purpose.
And it does have to be Obvious, I'm afraid - the bokken you're carrying is drawn with speed lines and it whistles as it cuts the air. Once you're in battle, it's clear to everyone that you're carrying a magical murder-tool, or else it's too good as an assassination thing and too obviously superior to Glorious Solar Sabre.
See the wording-the Charm is not Obvious, but becomes Obvious once the weapon is readied. This is because saying "the charm becomes Obvious when" (5 words) is less wordy than "the Obvious keyword does not apply unless" (7 words) or "the Obvious keyword only applies when" (6 words).
I have no idea, but since it sounds like an excellent plan and I want to see it in action I'm just going to give it a bump.
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- Denmark
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Ah yes, the primary Dragon-Blooded player in the thread - who often shares stories of his Dragon-Blooded games or talks about how great Dragon-Blooded are - does not leave the Dragon-Blooded anything; I can see your argument, yes. I do in fact, want to give the Dragon-Blooded something (hint: it doesn't involve being work teams), but I sure as hell also want the Solars to have something to actually do, which includes themes that actually fit them instead of being randomly stapled on with no thought to implication or purpose. This shit has been core to the Solars since day one of the gameline dude; you can't go 'theme creep' when that shit started in the First Edition core - Solars have been shooting glorious sunfire from their blades and conjuring forth mystical blades of sunlight since First Edition.
See, now is the time where you will prove your assertions and find quotes and text which tell me that the themes of Solars are those of Order, Law and Stasis - you will back up your arguments with reason and logic and you will show me that I am in error and that your assertion is the correct one; I will respond to this with acceptance since you are clearly correct and I am in error. Either that or you will admit that these are homebrew Solar themes which you think fit better with the Solar Exalted and not actually something supported by the text, except for the sobriquet 'Lawgivers' - and even then, Dawn Castes are also called 'Spears of Morning' but that doesn't actually make them literal spears made out of morninglight (Charm idea get.
).I can see this; "Your best days are axiomatically behind you" is not really what I'm playing to experience.
I think I tend to run into it from the other direction, though - there's also a lot of, "Well, it doesn't matter if the character you have rules to play could possibly have opposed the Primordials, because that's not what we're playing." And that feels... lessening, or cheapening, in kind of the same way? Like, if the pitch is, "You are Zeus, and you threw down the Titans - but rules-wise, no, you're never going to be capable of anything on that scale," then the backstory is cheap heat. If the Primordials were beatable by a unified Exalted host, with great resources, in the span of a couple of years - okay, sure, I don't have the host or the resources or etc., but it should be possible to look at my trend-line and say, "Yeah, it makes sense that somebody like you could pull that off." To steal @Sanctaphrax 's example, if I'm still struggling with blood apes after a year of play, I feel like a chump by comparison to Supposed Past Me.
(I don't think I'm disagreeing with you here, just hitting it from a different perspective.)
Incidentally;
Thanks Aaron! It might have taken me a year and a half, but I wound up taking your advice for linking it to fatigue.
Thanks Aaron! It might have taken me a year and a half, but I wound up taking your advice for linking it to fatigue.
- Location
- England
How powerful was a newbie first age/primordial war celestial anyway minus equipment?
Was it the case that you were basically handed a bunch on infinity+1 weapons, resources and artefacts at chargen that made them that powerful?
Did they progress faster due to a much better training support system?
Could they pursue more optimised builds because they weren't forced to become more rounded just to survive?
At what point should it be reasonable to say that you (3rd age celestial) and your past life (1st age/primordial war celestial) are equals once more as individuals, and you can not smack around blood apes like your previous self at horrendous expense.
Like driving around a hyper car. The old you had cash and fuel to burn so the fact you had to refill the tank after every grocery trip (1st circle massacre) wasn't an issue. But the new, broker you can afford to bust it out for a big race (3rd circle throwdown), but anything less wouldn't justify the fuel cost, or the maintenance requirements.
But you still own the hypercar, and you are still the fastest around.
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The thing is that Exalted are designed to be able to beat eldritch abominations much better than hordes of mortals. Sure, they're superhuman at both, but all the Solars died to the Dragon Blooded (bar a few who ran away really fast). Blood Apes fall into the same category as Dragon Blooded: they are the kind of enemies that should be fought by numerous DBs, not lone Solars. Solars take an army of DBs and make them even better at stomping on hordes of Blood Apes and Lintha, but the DBs do most of the actual hacking and slashing.
A lone Solar should absolutely struggle against a dozen Blood Apes because being outnumbered is (partially) outside Solar design specs, in that Solar Exaltations were made to fight with backup where possible. They still do, and it's one of the few things that they can want to do and still fail at through no fault of their own.
As for killing the Titans, very few Exalted did that period. There were 20 something Primordials slain total. Not every Primordial war vet killed a Primordial. Most didn't. Every single one of them had the potential, and were designed to be able to if they had a chance, but most Celestials for 1500 years died to Dragon Blooded rather than to Primordials.
In short, if you're still struggling with blood apes after a year in game, get a tool better suited to the job, like a few dozen Dragon Blooded who think you're an awesome guy and that the Realm consists of total assholes. Have them fight the Blood Apes instead of you. You will see a marked improvement.
- Location
- my house
Thanks, I'm rather proud of that plan, especially for how well it fits into Oromus' themes. What could be more lovecraft then a enigmatic being called upon to teach profane truths ( the IO is a lie!) using blasphemous rituals? It will only get more effective once I start picking up some of the Endless Desert's wish granting charms.
Of course I'll tell all the Infernals how to contact me should they need a friend, or help with a project. If that builds an Intimacy of respected teacher towards me? All the better.
And all those little cults(growing larger the farther you get from the realm) are great starting areas for new Infernals to blood themselves in Creation while still giving them a support network. Helping grow a small community of Yozi worshippers I'm the border marches so they can start capturing Rahksha and putting their essence towards the reclamation's (my) ends is a great starter mission.
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- Location
- Spain
Suuuure.
Look, i think we should stop making this argument. Solar Exaltations were made to emulate clasic heroes, and everything else is just watsonian gibberish. So, let me ask; Would Eric struggle against a dozen lizardmen? Would Achilles? would Conan?
(Well, ok, maybe Conan would appear to have it hard, but that is window dressing and we both now it).
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Now, you could argue that a non-combat Solar may have trouble, (As, say a non-combat culture hero would). And that would be more sound (And, actually, correct rules wise). But that only means that the Solar needs to use other method to defeat the apes.
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- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I will note that while 'bring more dudes' is an argument I am in great favour of as a Dragon-Blooded player, I'll also note that Solar thematics totally involve people who slew armies alone - Samson, Achilles and so on; Solars are classical heroes and should totally be able to take an army on - now if those dozen Blood Apes are The Leaden Guard of Ululaya - a throng of elite Blood Apes sworn to service under Ululaya, the Blood-Red Moon, who wear leaden armour to not stain the light of their radiant mistress and whose great clubs have broken the bones of hundred - your Solar should have a problem. But a dozen Blood Apes are nothing which should bother Invincible Sword Princess when she draws her blade.
On the counterpoint, the Dragon-Blooded are an army of TEN-THOUSAND HEROES and are thus worthy opponents for a Solar because a Sworn Brotherhood of Dragon-Blooded are also heroes and thus get to fight the Solar because they too are Exalted and they too were made to fight in the quarrels of the Gods.
(and if you put Blood Apes in the same category as Dragon-Blooded one more time, I'll strangle you.
)
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
In context, "polymorph you into cat" seems more appropriate than "strangle you"(and if you put Blood Apes in the same category as Dragon-Blooded one more time, I'll strangle you.
Well, yeah, a combat optimized character can snipe Blood Apes all day. That said, if you are a year into your story and you can't kill a few dozen Blood Apes, you probably aren't a combat optimized Solar, so you should get some dudes.
Ok, Blood Apes and Dragon Blooded are both in the category of "Things that could rip me apart in a fight."(and if you put Blood Apes in the same category as Dragon-Blooded one more time, I'll strangle you.
Is that better? It's about as specific. It's just that the difference is that I'm really far below them both, while a Solar is far enough above both of them that they probably need a numerical advantage.
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- Location
- England
Wouldn't there be an exponential curve of efficacy for exalts.
No amount of blood apes could slow down Sol Invictus if he decided that blood apes had personally offended him and needed to die, but a celestial circle has reasonable odds of pulling it of.
In the same way, at some point regular blood apes should stop being anything more than a speed bump to experienced exalts. Now citizens should always have the potential to be a threat because they have proven themselves by their status to not be mook #5, but to be opposition worthy of a name beyond their species.
Exalts scale with each other, so at no point should a solar not consider a DB a threat. One they may be able to reliably handle, but a threat to their lives none the less that could one day end it if their not careful.
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- Location
- Denmark
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- She/Her
See, this is actually funny because back in 1e an Essence 5 Dawn optimized for murder would struggle against a Sworn Brotherhood killsquad.
Of course back in 1e fights never ended either so take that with a grain of salt.
- Location
- my house
@EarthScorpion for TAW what characters in literature/myth did you draw inspiration from? I've always had trouble inderstanding what exactly what the Lunars are supposed to be, hindered no doubt by their poor handling in the books, so hearing your inspirations should hopefully clear this up
I dunno! I think there's an acceptable spectrum of answers there. But if that equipment/support/training/whatever makes so much of a difference that I'm basically never going to match him, then again, cheap heat. The premise of the game is being That Guy, reborn; I should, at some point, get to plausibly look like That Guy. The rules for +1 Infinity Swords and all the rest should be set to support that narrative.
Ok, well, I can tell you one problem you're going to run into immediately.
Oramus isn't built to make long-term stable, large-scale organisations. His Charmtech was built to enable a) secret cults of madmen consorting with forbidden lore and b) collective hysteria. In the case of a) you can winnow your cultists down to those strong-willed enough to remain functional when they're Mad. In the case of b), your assets are disposable and will self-destruct from their insanity and the way you use them. Oramus is kind of the Infernal alternative to Cecelyne as I built him, and as a result while Cecelyne builds long term stable cults as a state religion, Oramus builds secret cults of madmen and induces collective hysteria.
But within those constraints, I'd probably look to carrying out a sorcerous working or project to construct a "Hunter's Dream" or "Zamarkand". Naturally you'll need to kidnap people and force them to dream eternally as the hosts of the nightmare realm you're building for your cultists. Then you should be able to brand your cultists so they can enter your collective dream by meditating.
This will naturally have side effects and defects, not least because you shouldn't be allowed to easily implement cross-Creation communications.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
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Then surely how experienced he was when he did it doesn't really matter either? It's not really plausible for most players to reach high essence before the game ends. It seems this lends itself to an argument that anything an elder exalt does is cheap heat.
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Touch of Sepia
Artisan of the Vital Tincture
- Location
- Connecticut
What does growing plants have to do with making Hard-light weapons? The sun shoots sunbeams, solars shoot hold light - there was no argument there.
I gotta say this disassembling and intention misinterpretation of points is tiring.
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In so far as stapled on - Sol was not made to be Creations ruler. He is a failure in it - he is the most distant and distracted of all the Highest. In so far as perfection, he's hardly perfect either - or why would he crown the Solars? Why would he play favorites, show nepotism and sow the slow growing seeds of rebellion? He is flawed and as he is flawed perfection and rulership are not intrinsic to the essence of the Solars - it is explicitly stolen.
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