Brought here from the World of Darkness thread for irrelevance:

Well, since you already tagged him...

I probably want to write an essay about how the Exalted had fallen.

Of course, I'll do this after reading the all the books.

If by fallen you mean in the transition from Creation to the World of Darkness, there's no real point. It was a kinda cool gimmick that doesn't really have much relevance to actual campaigns or potential stories.
 
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Brought here from the World of Darkness thread for irrelevance:

QUOTE="Accelerator, post: 7644729, member: 14282"]Well, since you already tagged him...

I probably want to write an essay about how the Exalted had fallen.

Of course, I'll do this after reading the all the books.

If by fallen you mean in the transition from Creation to the World of Darkness, there's no real point. It was a kinda cool gimmick that doesn't really have much relevance to actual campaigns or potential stories.[/QUOTE]
quote broken.

yeah, its a cool gimmick. That's good enough.
 
yeah, its a cool gimmick. That's good enough.

Not really, no. Because even the bits where they line up, they're bits of the early 1e Exalted setting. Things have diverged significantly since then. The Autochthonia of oMage is no longer really connected to the Autochthonia of Exalted. There are 13 Deathlords because lol 13 clans, but the Deathlords don't line up to the Antediluvians well at all. The Sidereals devised for Exalted: the Sidereals are perhaps the least Mage-like splat (in fact, bluntly a lot of Mages are actually better Solars because oMages have very strong "I do human things but better than you" whenever they use covert magic).

(For example, Jamelia from Panopticon Quest squats right in the middle of the Night caste archetype space, is good at all the Night caste abilities, and plays as a far better "human hero" than the Solar Charmset really allows)
 
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1st. As someone who cannot comprehend the damnable crunch, how good are the Alchemicals at the whole 'crafting' thing? Can they bring things to first age level when they come into creation?
This is a complicated question, because what little has been done to Give Alchemicals a measure of Craft in 2e misses the majority of their themes entirely in the process and tries talking out both sides of its face about "Alchemicals aren't using Autochthon's Charms or themes" yet "... but because they're the Chosen of Autochthon clearly they have the best Craft ever so there."

So on the one hand, they got written to be mechanically superior to Solars within a few Charm purchases in every reasonable way, sometimes deliberately breaking their own Charm framework to do it, and the various upgrades to those purchases making them the most powerful single-crafter teams you could think of hammering out Artifact 5s with rapid-iteration autosuccesses and little more effort than having the raw materials available.

On the other hand, this isn't how they're supposed to Work. Rather than being a humanoid assembly line punching out warships in an afternoon, the ideal Alchemical should be a creature of logistics and workforce-management, capable of guiding several teams at once in the construction of multiple major projects designed to fit together and establish infrastructure bases. They're closer to designer-engineers than blacksmiths, because the force of their potency relies on dumbing-down complex magical technologies into basic units which even mortals can readily assemble and utilize without essence-use. They foster environments where craft is possible by the everyman by the measure of scope, rather than the exceptional man in terms of raw power, and therefore when you can assume an increased baseline of technological proficiency, you can gradually build atop that to better things, instead of hinging every effort on one-off miracles.

That said, could they reestablish the First Age? Not for a long while even in the best case, because the First Age was in many ways more than Autochthonia is. Part of the reason that Autochthonia is so advanced is because they live in a world which demands innovation or death on its own terms, so they have hyper-specialized their society to thrive in the context that survival is easier in a niche, even though large chunks of it are now failing as they can no longer keep such a breakneck pace anymore. The ways they have specialized aren't necessarily as adaptable to Creation as one would hope, because dragon lines within the earth are not tappable essence conduits, produce fields do not simply pour food into storage silos as a form of nutrient slurry, rivers are not ideal sewage runoff, and stone or brick make poor building materials when your understanding of architecture relies on riveted steel girders, water pumps and cable-driven freight elevators.

Any organized Alchemical "uplift" effort would need to build the adapters for those technologies first to meet the primitive state of Creation halfway, the treatment plants, the smelting refineries, the agriculture necessary to feed the manpower requirements, the basic assembly of tools to make the technologies they know how to make. Its a factory worker being given a coal-forge and tasked with making a modern day sports car, with zero knowledge of the interim steps which were never part of her job or knowledge base to begin with, having not been relevant to the process of "making cars" for generations.

By way of comparison, the Autochthonian method of manufacturing requires a basis of this kind of industry, and trying to arrange something similar for the limited access to things like large equipment, steady workforce and metal resources would look like this in Creation for quite a long time.

2nd. Also, what do the gods think of Autocthon? I know that the Solar exalted revere him, but what about those in Yu-shan?
By all accounts, the gods no doubt believe they are better off without him, and are afraid of his attentions and influence, because primordials of any stripe create a sense of uncertainty. Gaia is a known value to Yu-Shan, since she is "tamed" by her love of Luna and distant enough from the seats of power that she is largely a non-factor to happenings within Creation. Autochthon is a wildcard, because Yu-Shan has no hooks into his systems or loyalty because of shared history. Even an event like his reappearance could throw centuries of planning and scheming into disarray, as various ambitious gods see an opening for a sea-change in the status quo towards a more industrialized Creation, especially those who had First Age portfolios like Vanileth, the Shogun of Artificial Flight.

If Autochthon would start meddling in the affairs of Creation directly, it would cause a cascade of politicking the likes of which Yu-Shan hasn't seen in millennia.
 
Why is everyone so obsessed with 'restoring the First Age', anyway? Just a desire to "win" and "fix" Creation forever, rather than actually play the game and setting presented?
 
Why is everyone so obsessed with 'restoring the First Age', anyway? Just a desire to "win" and "fix" Creation forever, rather than actually play the game and setting presented?

Because everyone wants what they can't have.

When told about a shining supposed Utopia a thousand years ago, of course they'll try and recreate it.

When told about an awesome NPC splat, naturally there will be a hundred fan conversions.

When theres some awesome magic sword, naturally people will try and steal it etc.

Plus the First Age is commonly described as Magical Modern, and living in Modern times must be awesome for everyone else rather then living in sub bronze age conditions right?
 
Why is everyone so obsessed with 'restoring the First Age', anyway? Just a desire to "win" and "fix" Creation forever, rather than actually play the game and setting presented?
Because they think it was a golden age for all mankind with magi-technological wonder everywhere for even the common, while ignoring that the Deliberative thought non enlightened humans weren't fully aware, allowed the wyld to flood Creation and had a massive war game that killed millions because they were bored, altered the very fabric of reality so that anyone with enough effort could get the extremely dangerous power of terrestrial sorcery and wanted to allow universal access to the Adamant level and she did this with a rider on a completely unrelated bill in the Deliberative.
 
Why is everyone so obsessed with 'restoring the First Age', anyway? Just a desire to "win" and "fix" Creation forever, rather than actually play the game and setting presented?
Yes.
Because they think it was a golden age for all mankind with magi-technological wonder everywhere for even the common, while ignoring that the Deliberative thought non enlightened humans weren't fully aware, allowed the wyld to flood Creation and had a massive war game that killed millions because they were bored, altered the very fabric of reality so that anyone with enough effort could get the extremely dangerous power of terrestrial sorcery and wanted to allow universal access to the Adamant level and she did this with a rider on a completely unrelated bill in the Deliberative.
Because in the First Age, Creation was able to protect itself from shit like the Balorian Invasion and the Great Contagion.
 
A stray thought of some potential academic interest, but no particular importance:

I was thinking on how the primordial relate to the early universe and an an odd parallel occurred to me, not for the titans, but for the Unconquered Sun and the Law of Diminishment.

The very first stars were not like modern stars.

Hydrogen and Helium aren't great at losing heat compared to stellar metals like nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon. This meant that the very first stars, without metal in them at all, cooled and shrank to fusion conditions much slower and had far more time accumulate gas and debris from the void.

This meant, in effect, that when they finally lit off, they were much, much bigger. From what I've read, those first stars were brighter than many modern galaxies, which greatly contributed to the reionization of the universe.

It wouldn't last forever of course, eventually those first stars died and their corpses and all those new elements they created were loosed to the void, the heat shedding properties of their more metallic nature preventing such grand stars from ever forming again. In exchange, the universe received the building blocks all we know and love.*

Which, when you think about it, sounds a lot like a Sun god creating something of magnificent splendor, something that will allow the world as we know it to exist, and forever diminishing himself as a result.

*excepting explosions, which are simply a fundamental property of our universe. Put enough of any energy or thing in one place and it explodes. Even black holes can be just thought of as a really excellent explosion that have been time dilated by the director for slow motion goodness, cutting into normal time just as they finish.

...I pity the lot of Creation. I really do.
 
So, I managed to get a copy of Games of Divinity for Christmas, and just finished reading it through. While reading it, I saw a bunch of references to something called 'The Void' which, for the life of me, I could not figure out what it was referring to. So, what is it? Some sort of reference to the Neverborn? A Wyld thing? Some sort of 1st Edition thing that got removed later?
 
So, I managed to get a copy of Games of Divinity for Christmas, and just finished reading it through. While reading it, I saw a bunch of references to something called 'The Void' which, for the life of me, I could not figure out what it was referring to. So, what is it? Some sort of reference to the Neverborn? A Wyld thing? Some sort of 1st Edition thing that got removed later?
1e was still trying to establish itself and its lore as something distinct from the World of Darkness then, so most early references to "the void" are either metaphorical turns of phrase, references which are making direct correlations to what we now call "Oblivion" at the bottom of the Maw of the Void in the Underworld, or a combination of the two given how the early-Underworld was sort of a vague and transitory extension of what they wanted to retroactively apply from the Wraith books.

The Malfeans/Neverborn got a similar treatment as things began to gel more firmly with the Abyssals book release.
 
Something I'm asking after reading Ink monkeys ultimate collection.

Looking at the Daystar, and the Forge inside it, I read that the Forge uses shaping to create any tools a craftsman needs. But why not the materials too?
 
Something I'm asking after reading Ink monkeys ultimate collection.

Looking at the Daystar, and the Forge inside it, I read that the Forge uses shaping to create any tools a craftsman needs. But why not the materials too?
Because some things should still require miracles to attain
 
But the tool racks produce First-age level tools too.

It just seems weird, you know, that you can produce any tool but not any material.

Tool racks don't get depleted, so it could just have and endless array that had been tributed to the sun. Finding the square circles is for the party to do
 
But the tool racks produce First-age level tools too.

It just seems weird, you know, that you can produce any tool but not any material.
The tools are temporary and don't need to last forever just as long as they are needed to be used. The forge probably sustains them as long as they stay inside. If you make something out of things created by it you're creation probably has a risk of suffering critical existence failure. Also emulating the effect of tools inside of it is probably a lot easier than actually making the tools.
 
Gaarrrrggghhhh....

Fine then. Maybe it isn't that right....

Sadly you have run into the trap that many fall into, which I will refer to as the Trap of Sensibility.

It usually starts with the 'hey wouldn't it make sense if X' and then it escalates into something really stupid. Such as my magnum opus threadmark somewhere else in this thread that was younger me deciding that 'hey it would totally make sense if Oramus could do X' and then it escalated into a scene-long perfect with the hilarious Imperfection that it didn't work against Shaping. :V
 
Sadly you have run into the trap that many fall into, which I will refer to as the Trap of Sensibility.

It usually starts with the 'hey wouldn't it make sense if X' and then it escalates into something really stupid. Such as my magnum opus threadmark somewhere else in this thread that was younger me deciding that 'hey it would totally make sense if Oramus could do X' and then it escalated into a scene-long perfect with the hilarious Imperfection that it didn't work against Shaping. :V
Got a link?

Just to makes sure, what's the definition of shaping?
 
'Hello, I am craft-man, my day consists of sitting on my ass and pooping out dot-five Daiklaves for my automaton army I built in my invincible solar cave.'

'Yes, this is good game design.'

I'm going to come back to this and something I stated about Dual Magnus Prana. The base-level concept of 'introducing your wondrous work of artifice in-session rather than having to roll for it forever ahead of time playing a minigame tangentially related to the main game' is actually really good.

In a game like Exalted where it's more about the consequences of your actions than the process you take to get there, this is a fairly solid model. The problem is that it only exists in one charm (which has problems because it doesn't actually act like having a secret body double and has no counterplay) rather than being the default situation where an artifact-crafter introduces their game-changing artifact designed specifically to defeat a certain challenge when that challenge shows up, and the question being, rather than "how many doohickeys and how many sleepless nights were spent on it" "what, if any, flaws does this thing have or what complications will I later suffer as a result of spending time and effort on building this thing."
 
It's a threadmark literally called 'ManusDomine's magnum opus', courtesy of @Jemnite.

Just to makes sure, what's the definition of shaping?
Basically, when a Charm can effortlessly deprotagonize a character you slap on Shaping to give people an effective defense against it.

I'm going to come back to this and something I stated about Dual Magnus Prana. The base-level concept of 'introducing your wondrous work of artifice in-session rather than having to roll for it forever ahead of time playing a minigame tangentially related to the main game' is actually really good.

I totally agree; Vice Miracle Technique does something similar and allows you to go 'look what i made motherfuckers' and produce some magical bullshit as long as you have worked on something else, since you pull out a side project or some bullshit like that-

In a game like Exalted where it's more about the consequences of your actions than the process you take to get there, this is a fairly solid model. The problem is that it only exists in one charm (which has problems because it doesn't actually act like having a secret body double and has no counterplay) rather than being the default situation where an artifact-crafter introduces their game-changing artifact designed specifically to defeat a certain challenge when that challenge shows up, and the question being, rather than "how many doohickeys and how many sleepless nights were spent on it" "what, if any, flaws does this thing have or what complications will I later suffer as a result of spending time and effort on building this thing."
I agree with this summary; Dual Magnus Prana introduces gameplay that I am not interested in, and I feel the way it works incentivizes the wrong things and doesn't actually work as a body double Charm because you don't actually craft anything. Like even when going for a retroactive Craft system, there is no way for your enemies to see the clockwork gears subtly turn beneath your skin or notice your eyes trace reddish essence-mandalas and thus see through your disguise.

But I'm totally all for magical spooky secret body doubles constructed with ancient god-king magic so you can act safely outside the borders of Latveria[Placeholder kingdom nation].
 
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