General Exalted Thread

[The Laurent]

Though you know, isn't the Realm currently undergoing a crisis? It could be easy enough to say 'They just discovered it >100 years ago, and only were just got started on the oppression before the whole 'we might be in a civil war' thing led to the loosening of grips and now large parts of the West that were actually starting to come under the boothell of the Realm have already broken away, and if Civil War happens, they'll lose everything they have.'

...I mean, what good does it do to the narrative to have even more space where the Realm gets to paint random territory?

 

[LastChronicler]

No, it's a perfectly illustrative example. Yes, kendo just deals with the sword. I only learned the sword. I cannot use a spear, nor can I use nunchaku, and a kusari-gama is right out. This means they are separate skills, and a traditional warrior's curriculum teaches these separate skills. I am just learning one skill out of the set of skills that would otherwise be taught to some Sengoku samurai or whatever, he does this for his day job and I don't.

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Except this is a misleading example, because there is in fact carry-over between training with separate weapons. Just because it's not precisely evenly weighted (the benefits of training with the aforementioned kusari-gama will obviously not translate well to sword and buckler) does not mean it does not exist. Though on that note, something like the kusari-gama or a nunchaku are probably more likely to be represented in 3E at least as a martial art weapon than a standard melee one, owing to their unusual nature.

Even if we ignore the fact that any warrior from a medieval/ancient period is overwhelmingly more likely to have trained with multiple weapons than a single one, this is a very reasonable justification for folding the use of spear, sword, etc into one ability beyond just reducing it to something like 'lol, game design'.

My point is, in Exalted this is not the case. If I learn how to use a sword by putting XP into Melee, I can use a spear, I can use nunchaku, I can use two kusari-gama at the same time, it doesn't matter what I pick up, my omni-skill carries the whole lot. If there exist broad, all-encompassing omni-skills in the system, then, there should not exist narrow, limited singular skills such as my kendo, or Dodge. That would be dumb. All skills should be roughly equally broad - you are being charged the same amount of XP to get them.

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'Some abilities are broader than others and the imbalance isn't entirely fair' is a separate issue to what I was pointing out.

 

[Chehrazad]

I believe this argument has already been had before (it migrated to the martial arts thread, where you can easily find it), but I don't quite agree. In pretty much any authentic traditional weapon system dating back to a time in which it was used, the training was holistic in nature, covering multiple weapons, rather than being hyperspecialised in one.

Kendo is a terrible example to be using, because like Olympic sport fencing it's divorced from it's combat roots; if you actually look at traditional Kenjutsu systems, they tend to cover instruction in more than just the Katana. To take another example, many of the principles of Liechtenauer's longsword teachings overlap with the spear.

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Hello.

I practice baguazhang as well as Lichtenauer's teachings.

I know how to fight with my hands as well as a pair of deer-horn knives (that I love very much wheee), I know the spear (kinda) and I know the langschwert as well as shorter blades.

I have practiced both for six years of my life.

This makes for five weapons, as well as a bunch of extra weapons that I partially know (such as staves).

 

[LastChronicler]

Hello.

I practice baguazhang as well as Lichtenauer's teachings.

I know how to fight with my hands as well as a pair of deer-horn knives (that I love very much wheee), I know the spear (kinda) and I know the langschwert as well as shorter blades.

I have practiced both for six years of my life.

This makes for five weapons, as well as a bunch of extra weapons that I partially know (such as staves).

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That's nice.

 

[azoicennead]

'Some abilities are broader than others and the imbalance isn't entirely fair' is a separate issue to what I was pointing out.

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What you pointed out is only relevant because of that imbalance.
Like, it came up entirely because of that imbalance.

 

[LastChronicler]

What you pointed out is only relevant because of that imbalance.
Like, it came up entirely because of that imbalance.

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My specific comments on @Jon Chung's personal opinion towards his martial arts experience however, does not therefore automatically mean that I'm opposed to the idea of Athletics and Dodge (for example) being folded together, does it?

 

[Chehrazad]

That's nice.

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The point I was trying to make, is that most fighting systems aren't as hollistic as you say, though they certainly are rather wide in some cases.

But on another note, deer-horn knives are wonderful and I want a fighting style that uses them, so I wrote this:

Eight Trigram Palm Style
Practitioners of this Style learn to move in circles and are distinctive for their meditative practices conducted through walking in circles, palms towards the center. Practitioners of this Style makes use of circular movements and open palm strikes in order to both deflect and defeat the attacks of opponents. When those who walk the Eight Trigram Path go to war, they wield the deadly weapons known as deer-horn knives or crescent moon knives, that easily shear through armor as well as flesh.
1: +1 to meditate when done through circle-walking.
2: +1 Dodge pool to dodge through circular movements.
3: +1 damage when using deer-horn knives.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Though you know, isn't the Realm currently undergoing a crisis? It could be easy enough to say 'They just discovered it >100 years ago, and only were just got started on the oppression before the whole 'we might be in a civil war' thing led to the loosening of grips and now large parts of the West that were actually starting to come under the boothell of the Realm have already broken away, and if Civil War happens, they'll lose everything they have.'

...I mean, what good does it do to the narrative to have even more space where the Realm gets to paint random territory?

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Yes. Okay.

So, care to address what was happening in the previous 650 years when there was no Realm force projection in the area and any Celestial who Exalted in the West was free to run around with absolutely nothing to stop their characteristic snowballing pattern?

See, the thing is, "small, resource-rich islands" are literally the worst at resisting aggressive, mercantile, naval-based imperial powers. I point you to exhibit A - "Recorded history". If the East is the most Realm-proof Direction (with large land groups, and united hostile Dragonblooded powers), then the West is the most Realm-susceptible Direction [1].

The Near West should be a Direction of colonial governors ruling over conquered populations, local despots fully aware that the orders that matter come from the "merchant port", Realm-ethnic colonies closer to the Realm, and the like. You should be able to populate the West by looking at the history of Indonesia and the South China Sea, and of the Caribbean and a bit of the Southern US and Brazil - and of the North Sea, in the North-West [2]. And that mandates much more useful land.

Then the Far West becomes more Micronesia - and then turns into the Chaos Wastes once you fix the Wyld by giving it quasi-static terrain and real locations that mean players can engage with it and GMs don't have to make everything up wholesale.

[1] Meanwhile, the Realm is held out of the far North by the climate and logistic problems but dominates the more temperate regions, and the South has come to accommodations with the Realm, maintaining a degree of independence and their lords pay their tribute to the Realm but maintain a lot of self-rule.

[2] Vikings and the Hanseatic League, ahoy.

 

[Broken25]

or pin the present in Creation into a very narrow period of history (maybe 100 years), where the Realm has discovered the resource of the West and has started exploiting them, but hasn't gone full British Empire on this and started painting the small islands on the map pink - or scarlet, as it would be in this case.

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I have absolutely no problem with this.

The Near West should be a Direction of colonial governors ruling over conquered populations, local despots fully aware that the orders that matter come from the "merchant port", Realm-ethnic colonies closer to the Realm, and the like.

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And this is different from any satrapy in the inner sea coast because?

Like, there is already an atlantic size ocean between the Blessed isle and the main continent.

I don't need more space to put brazil or India or Java or wharever large colonial nation in the map. There is already a load of places to put them.

 

[LastChronicler]

The point I was trying to make, is that most fighting systems aren't as hollistic as you say, though they certainly are rather wide in some cases.

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At no point did I say it's all-or-nothing. I essentially quoted a post where someone laughed at the idea of experience with a sword translating to experience with a spear and pointed out that... well, yes, that kind of is the case.

It's true that the simplified nature of the game mechanics takes it further than is perhaps sensible, but... who cares?

But on another note, deer-horn knives are wonderful and I want a fighting style that uses them, so I wrote this:

Eight Trigram Palm Style
Practitioners of this Style learn to move in circles and are distinctive for their meditative practices conducted through walking in circles, palms towards the center. Practitioners of this Style makes use of circular movements and open palm strikes in order to both deflect and defeat the attacks of opponents. When those who walk the Eight Trigram Path go to war, they wield the deadly weapons known as deer-horn knives or crescent moon knives, that easily shear through armor as well as flesh.
1: +1 to meditate when done through circle-walking.
2: +1 Dodge pool to dodge through circular movements.
3: +1 damage when using deer-horn knives.

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Cool stuff. I remember trying to write a Baguazhang MA style for 3E when it came out, but I was never all that happy with it.

 

[Jon Chung]

My specific comments on @Jon Chung's personal opinion towards his martial arts experience however, does not therefore automatically mean that I'm opposed to the idea of Athletics and Dodge (for example) being folded together, does it?

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At no point did I say it's all-or-nothing. I essentially quoted a post where someone basically laughed at the idea of experience with a sword translating to experience with a spear and pointed out that... well, yes, that kind of is the case.

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It really isn't. You want to learn the spear, you actually need to train with a spear. You don't automatically get awesome spear skills if you learn the sword. If I picked up a yari I can stick people with the pointy end, with probably better footwork than the average guy. Do you actually think this necessarily translates into a single, unified, holistic skill? To me, that tells me it's even more subdivided.

Example. A bit further out, "knows how to use a light two-handed slashing sword" and "knows how to use a meteor hammer" are separate skills, yes? This seems reasonably straightforward and obvious as a thing. Nothing I learn about the proper way to cut dudes with a katana is going to help me with the meteor hammer, I think this is entirely self-evidently true.

So. The real world does not work like Exalted. Exalted lumps every weapon in the entire world into one skill for ease of gameplay. In Exalted, if I learn to use a katana, I learn to use a gladius and shield, a meteor hammer, a kusari-gama, an arming sword, a flamberge, a war hammer with a head the size of a Toyota, Zatoichi's canesword, Cloud Strife's Buster Sword and a half brick in a sock. All at once, with equal proficiency.

This somehow takes me just as much effort as it does to learn how to play dodgeball.

It's true that the simplified nature of the game mechanics takes it further than is perhaps sensible, but... who cares?

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The context is in discussing the existence of both extremely broad omni-skills like Melee, Athletics, Performance, Lore, Occult etc and narrow, "more realistic" skills like Dodge and Resistance in the same system, and why this is not a good state. What exactly is your argument, here?

 

[Broken25]

The context is in discussing the existence of both extremely broad omni-skills like Melee, Athletics, Performance, Lore, Occult etc and narrow, "more realistic" skills like Dodge and Resistance in the same system, and why this is not a good state. What exactly is your argument, here?

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Honestly, a mix of broad and narrow abilities isn't inherently a problem. What is a problem is a mix of highly useful vs less useful skills, which is somewhat different.

(Performance, for example, isn't really more useful that Presence, despite being a lot more broad).

The other problem, of course, is overlapping skills.

 

[Chehrazad]

At no point did I say it's all-or-nothing. I essentially quoted a post where someone basically laughed at the idea of experience with a sword translating to experience with a spear and pointed out that... well, yes, that kind of is the case.

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Well, it is the case in the sense that the dude who knows the sword will have pretty good footwork and know a bunch of other stuff. But he won't get instant hollistic knowledge about how spears work.

It's true that the simplified nature of the game mechanics takes it further than is perhaps sensible, but... who cares?

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I do!

We must have Abilities such as Kitchen Knife Stabbing (As opposed to Kitchen Knife Wielding or Kitchen Knife Forging).

Otherwise, my sense of realism will be broken.

Cool stuff. I remember trying to write a Baguazhang MA style for 3E when it came out, but I was never all that happy with it.

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Yes, baguazhang (or rather, the style I know) is mostly based on a lot of different forms, which possess a bunch of techniques associated with them such as The Lion Plays With The Ball when one is in Lion Form, or performing Dragon Descends Into The Water when one is in Dragon Form.

Basically, it really doesn't work as a Martial Arts Style in Exalted.

 

[Jon Chung]

Honestly, a mix of broad and narrow abilities isn't inherently a problem. What is a problem is a mix of highly useful vs less useful skills, which is somewhat different.

(Performance, for example, isn't really more useful that Presence, despite being a lot more broad).

The other problem, of course, is overlapping skills.

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Breadth is part of usefulness. If I can buy one skill and apply it to three situations, as opposed to buying three skills and applying them to three situations separately, I save a crapload of experience points I can use to buy more magic Exalted bullshit powers, which is what I want to spend my XP on anyway.

 

[Broken25]

Breadth is part of usefulness.

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Well, yeah, but it's not exactly the same.

Melee isn't really that much useful than Spears, or wharever. Not when the system doesn't really model difference between weapons. Like, of course there is some use if you are disarmed and you need to grab a improvised weapon, but that's a really edge case.

 

[Chehrazad]

Seriously though, look at this wonder:

Spoiler: Beauty

@Aleph! I wannt Keris to have some! I'm sure she'll love them!

They are top-level murder implements.

 

[Jon Chung]

Well, yeah, but it's not exactly the same.

Melee isn't really that much useful than Spears, or wharever. Not when the system doesn't really model difference between weapons. Like, of course there is some use if you are disarmed and you need to grab a improvised weapon, but that's a really edge case.

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Uh, yes, it does. The grand goremaul is considerably better than the regular daiklave, for example. Unless you are talking about 3E, and I am not interested enough in 3E to bother looking for how it does weapons.

Though, the 1E/2E meta where you pick Swords +3 and then never use anything other than a sword ever is one of the reasons I came up with the alternate specialty deal that turned into the Style system. It's such a waste to be able to wield every weapon in the world and only ever actually use one narrow subset, right?

 

[Revlid]

I have absolutely no problem with this.

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I do, which is that it's quite hard to justify the Realm just not knowing about the West, when they're the direct inheritors of a world-spanning state that absolutely included the West.

The Realm should have ancient maps, tax records, ocean charts, autobiographies – hell, the Scarlet Empress is technically from the Shogunate. Presumably she targeted raksha in the West with the Sword of Creation, too. Even without her, you've got things like bound demons or divine contacts or sorcerous scrying or Bronze Faction Sidereals which can very easily reveal "land in that direction, yo", not to mention the idea of it taking 500 years to discover the West when 20% of your ruling caste are amazing sailors and your navy is the best in the world.

If you want to do this, I'd advise something I rarely do, which is a New Plot Event. Namely, the use of the Realm Defence Grid in the West caused a total elemental shitstorm post-Contagion, which left the passage to the West essentially unnavigable in anything approaching safety up until about a century ago, when it finally and slowly started to die down. Call it the Typhon.

The Terrestrial Bureaucracy in the region is a post-apocalyptic mess ruled by raksha pirates and elemental thugs, the Storm Mothers have gone totally off-reservation and unionized for more storms, longer storms, and storm overtime, the Lintha use powerful demon vessels to move freely through the Typhon, which is how they've survived so long. The few little empires of the West cognizant of their likely fate watch nervously as the steadily-opening opportunities represented by the fading storm cause the Great Houses to chafe at the bit, with many of their disputed territory claims left unresolved at the time at the time of the Empress' disappearance, as further catalyst for political jockeying and internecine warfare.

You've got to do something like that, and then juice it for all the fun it's worth.

"It's really far away tho", doesn't cut it.

Meanwhile, the Realm is held out of the far North by the climate and logistic problems but dominates the more temperate regions, and the South has come to accommodations with the Realm, maintaining a degree of independence and their lords pay their tribute to the Realm but maintain a lot of self-rule.

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The deeper North and South are in an interesting position with regard to the Realm, because – like most real-world empires – their supply chains and long-term occupying capabilities look at endless tundra and scorching desert and say "haha, fuck no". On the other hand, stick a few Dragon-blooded with the right Survival Charms in there, and suddenly a march into Fucking Hotville or No Waterstan becomes damn near simple. So they can't keep the outer South or North in a headlock, but they can stab them with comparative ease – which is what they were expecting to do to the Bull, before he pulled like three whole other Solars out of his ass.

 

[EarthScorpion]

which is what they were expecting to do to the Bull, before he pulled like three whole other Solars out of his ass.

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Hmm. Humans can hide things inside bodily cavities, so presumably Solars can hide things really well in their cavities - even things most people would assume couldn't fit. They are legendarily good at hiding things on - or within - their person.

The Charm's probably in Larceny.

 

[LastChronicler]

It really isn't. You want to learn the spear, you actually need to train with a spear. You don't automatically get awesome spear skills if you learn the sword. If I picked up a yari I can stick people with the pointy end, with probably better footwork than the average guy. Do you actually think this necessarily translates into a single, unified, holistic skill?

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There is something of an assumption that your training would have entailed actually handling multiple weapons, yes. Hence why I mentioned how the warriors of ancient/feudal periods tended to do so, and it's actually 'I've only ever touched this one particular weapon' that is arguably the stranger proposition.

The context is in discussing the existence of both extremely broad omni-skills like Melee, Athletics, Performance, Lore, Occult etc and narrow, "more realistic" skills like Dodge and Resistance in the same system, and why this is not a good state. What exactly is your argument, here?

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I disagreed with the segment of the post in question that I quoted.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not in fact trying to push a particular agenda as to what parts of Exalted game design should and shouldn't be rewritten. My stance is that 'Yes, it's an over-simplification for the sake of gameplay, but there's something there to it that makes sense even besides that'.

Well, it is the case in the sense that the dude who knows the sword will have pretty good footwork and know a bunch of other stuff. But he won't get instant hollistic knowledge about how spears work.

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Yeah, but I feel like I covered that when I said "Just because it's not precisely evenly weighted (the benefits of training with the aforementioned kusari-gama will obviously not translate well to sword and buckler) does not mean it does not exist". But even then, Liechtenauer's Harnischfechten, (to take the only example with which I can say I have firsthand experience) teaches the longsword and spear interchangeably in the same section of the Recital; it's not like a totally separate system.

 

[Jon Chung]

There is something of an assumption that your training would have entailed actually handling multiple weapons, yes. Hence why I mentioned how the warriors of ancient/feudal periods tended to do so, and it's actually 'I've only ever touched this one particular weapon' that is arguably the stranger proposition.

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Yes, they know how to use multiple weapons. Because they learn multiple weapons, yes? Explicitly so. They train with all those weapons, and all of those skills together form the model of a competent warrior. They do not learn one weapon and magically acquire proficiency in all the other weapons in their school as a side effect, nor can you see the entire training process as a single indivisible mega-skill.

Because it's still possible to learn just one subskill. The hypothetical feudal samurai is simply not doing that. He's learning sword, spear, glaive, bow, unarmed grappling, unarmed striking, horsemanship, horse archery, etc, etc, these are all skills on their own. Some of the subskills he learns helps him learn other subskills faster than if he was starting from scratch, to be fair (eg, knowing kendo footwork helps naginata-do footwork, I assume knowing how to aim tsuki would help aim a spearpoint), but he needs to be proficient in all of these separate fields if he wants to do his job, and there are no two skills where there is enough overlap that he can go "I did X, I know Y, I don't have to specifically go train Y".

I, not being a samurai, just learned one sub-subskill, for fun. I cannot do his job, because it is the collection of all his wide and varied skills that enables that to happen. If this was a game system, there would be "Spear", "Sword", "Bow", etc all listed separately, with some kind of experience point cost discount on related skills with overlap if you already possess one of the set.

I disagreed with the segment of the post in question that I quoted.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not in fact trying to push a particular agenda as to what parts of Exalted game design should and shouldn't be rewritten. My stance is that 'Yes, it's an over-simplification for the sake of gameplay, but there's something there to it that makes sense even besides that'.

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Are you referring to the general idea of a broad over-skill, or specifically Exalted's implementation? If the former I agree, if the latter, tell me how I can use my knowledge of how to execute an overhand two-handed katana slash to help me spin the meteor hammer, please. Meteor hammers are cool.

 

[FaeGlade Plural]

Dragonblood-only expeditions are actually a pretty interesting type of force projection.

Consider what just a circle of experienced dragonbloods can do.
They can't hold territory of any sorts - but they can certainly beat any opposition without it's own supernatural backing. They should be able to beat any army of a tribe or small kingdom. Not that they'd have to engage in such direct conflict - they can just assassinate a ruler (either by fighting through the palace guard, or via stealth) and intimidate local gods into working against the locals to apply more measured force.

And with travel charms, or maybe bound demons (such as Agatae) , an expedition into the deep threshold shouldn't take that long. Maybe a year if you have to explore less well-mapped territory and are going after several targets. After all, your expedition members can easily live off the land, have the equivalent of radio and have little to fear from local fauna or weather.
Sending five experienced dragonbloods out for a year at a time isn't terribly much sacrifice for the Realm. Or at least it shouldn't be, with them having hundreds of dragonbloods and them living for 200+ years at least.

Such an expedition should be enough to get any locals to agree to most demands really, especially if you include social charms.
The question is thus what those demands are.


Well, paying a yearly tribute would necessitate some sort of trade network (or other means of transport). If one is present, it might easily be that the realm demands some form of tribute. Not even necessarily much, just enough to remind people of their allegiance and extract certain valuables from the region. Goods you might not get easily elsewhere are a good example of this - exotics take less volume, and justify the expense if this is the only source.
Jade deserves a special mention - the Realm is trying to maintain a monopoly on it, and while only a few regions will have any, I can easily imagine the Realm performing divinations on newly discovered jade mines in the threshold regularly and then sending out such an expedition to get at it.

A practice that is probably pretty common is that they demand that the local ruler swears allegiance to the realm, and that any future ruler will do the same. This can create interesting plots if a new ruler fails to do so - historically, the British empire had wars based just on that basis.

And let's not forget that the Realm has a religious agenda as well. Actually getting people to just follow the immaculate faith would require an actual presence, they'll have a too-strong interest in not doing so to get favors from local gods otherwise. However, what the Realm could want are local Immaculate temples. Most likely just with mortal monks - though they may have a retiring exalted monk every now and then, and might get founded by one. Those temples could then in turn demand tribute, at least enough to sustain themselves, and act as a nice local presence - for very little expense. All you really have to do is check on the region one a mortal generation or so, and take appropriate measures if the temple is gone.


So the Realm shouldn't have a presence in most of the outer threshold - that is, not a continuous presence with military forces and dragonbloods.
But it should definitely be within it's reach and influenced by it. Even the farthest edges of Creation might have a yearly Realm-funded trader who takes most of their (local exotic) at a low price, and a small Immaculate monastery, and other such things. It won't be a constant or exacting thing, but it'll still matter.

Basically, it's gunboat diplomacy - just with potentially more subtlety (due to stealth and social charms) and possibly longer travel times.

And of course, a distant overlord that only asks and gives little in return is perfect for someone with supernatural power who actually is willing to stand up to them, and provide the locals with actual benefit - warnings about the Anathema be damned.

 

[Imrix]

...I mean, what good does it do to the narrative to have even more space where the Realm gets to paint random territory?

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And this is different from any satrapy in the inner sea coast because?

Like, there is already an atlantic size ocean between the Blessed isle and the main continent.

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The Realm is defined as an empire with its boot on the throat of the world. It should, by default, dominate the setting. We've already got the East as That Place The Realm Isn't Doing So Hot, why should the West be another one?

Like, if "there's an Atlantic size ocean between the Blessed Isle and the main continent" is seriously an obstacle (I assert it is not), then maybe there shouldn't be an Atlantic size ocean there. Redraw the map so the West starts with continents, then islands, then archipalagoes as you get further from the Blessed Isle. Put the massive ocean on the side that's actually closest to the Pole of Water.

 

[Revlid]

Look, learning Melee lets you wield all the melee weapons in the world. Knife, check. Sword, check. Spear, check. Halberd, check. Glaive, check. Chain whip, check. Seven section staff, check. Meteor hammer, check. Dual-wielding flails made of dead rats, check. Monowire whip, check. Whatever you want. If you can use it to hit people, you can use it with Melee. Cloud Strife is using the same ability Grand Goremaul Guy is using, which is the same ability Knife Girl is using, which is the same ability Zatoichi is using, which is... etc, etc.

Anyone who's ever actually done martial arts knows this is total bullshit (I'm a kendoka, ask me to use a spear, ha ha ha), but we throw it in anyway because abilities are allowed to be ridiculously, insanely broad to facilitate gameplay and reduce finicky stat tracking. If people want to start splitting out weightlifting from Athletics because most of it is gymnastics plus track and field, to be consistent you're going to have to split Melee into different weapon groups, Occult into different fields of occult knowledge, Lore into different academic specializations etc etc.

This is dumb, so go the other direction. The overly narrow ones (looking at you, Dodge) should rightly be eaten by the broad ones.

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It's worth noting an unspoken distinction that's been brought up by Stephen Lee Shearer on the WW forums in the past – namely, the line between Role Abilities and Function Abilities.

Dodge is a Function Ability. It does what it says on the tin. It is your skill at dodging stuff. You use it to dodge. The same is true of Melee, which – for all it covers a vast array of different weapons – amounts to "how good you are at hitting things with things you're holding onto". Also Awareness, which is all about using your senses to notice things, and says nothing else about you.

Sail is a Role Ability. It is not one discrete skill or goal, but a ream of different skills which are, in practical terms, totally unrelated. Tying knots and judging weather and catching the breeze and repairing hulls and commanding crews and testing depths and navigating maps and so on are all completely different and have nothing to do with each other, except that they are all skills needed by a [Sailor].

Similarly, Larceny is a Role Ability. Pickpocketing, lockpicking, escape artistry and sleight-of-hand could be argued to have enough of a practical link – small, precise, subtle movements – but disguise? Criminal contacts? Fencing goods and underworld lingo? Confidence schemes and hiding in plain sight? Planning a heist? Selling drugs and bribing guards? These things have no uniting link except that they're all needed by a [Criminal].

Given the consistent unsuitability of Function Abilities, I'd honestly rather make all of them into Role Abilities and boil down the number a touch. Most Ability Charms work just as well like that.

 

[SerbobIV]

Hmm. Humans can hide things inside bodily cavities, so presumably Solars can hide things really well in their cavities - even things most people would assume couldn't fit. They are legendarily good at hiding things on - or within - their person.

The Charm's probably in Larceny.

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They call it "elsewhere"