And I have no respect at all for any argument which begins with "But Lunars have a monopoly on combat shapeshifting because they're werewolves and Garou form is theirs!". I rewrote all of Lunars to yank them out of that prison. It results in very stupid things, like ascribing any character who shapeshifts as being a Lunar, and commits the terminal sin of conflating aesthetic with thematics. It locks Lunars into a combat paradigm which forces them to turn into a half-man-half-beast hybrid, all because of "muh oWoD" legacy code.

Honestly outside of Solars whose themes are basically: 1. Human Excellence, 2. Perfection, 3. GOLDEN ATOMIC SUNFIRE basically every splat can have some combat shapeshifting stuff.

Abyssals and Infernals are pretty obvious. Alchemicals have the transformers aesthetic and variable weapons/tools are common as fuck in the sci-fi they get inspired from. Sidereals have such weird charms that a charm which lets them take other forms would not be so weird. Even Dragonbloods could have some sort of "I turn into a dragon made out of fire/etc" as a charm somewhere in some tree. Maybe a Brotherhood of DBs can turn into Dragon Voltron or someshit as a War charm. :V

But because the Lunar shtick becomes "shapeshifting" this becomes limiting as fuck, and I think it's also a good lesson as to why strong, clearly defined niches are good for all sorts-not just the splat.
 
Sorry. so... celestial martial arts imitate things like tigers, or fire, right?

What about stuff like yozis/ neverborn/ gods/ fae?

Eeeeh... sort of? Sure, there's Tiger, Mantis and Snake styles, but Dreaming Pearl Courtesan isn't so clearly defined as 'imitating' something.

Infernal Monster Style is a pretty 'Malfeas' Martial Art, so that is a valid design space, though.

----

Also, crap, now I'm considering that Alchemical Quest a lot more seriously. I'll get something up in a bit, I suspect.
 
Eeeeh... sort of? Sure, there's Tiger, Mantis and Snake styles, but Dreaming Pearl Courtesan isn't so clearly defined as 'imitating' something.

Infernal Monster Style is a pretty 'Malfeas' Martial Art, so that is a valid design space, though.

----

Also, crap, now I'm considering that Alchemical Quest a lot more seriously. I'll get something up in a bit, I suspect.
Is that only learnable by infernals and celestials taught by infernals?
 
And so you aren't chained by the Solar Charm structure, because that's what Mirror does.

When it's a case of the Charms doing the same type of thing, and the ones using them are altered Solars, then Mirror's copying of Charm structure makes sense. Training Charms have little reason to use a different Charm tree structure outside of 'Oh, these aren't Solars,' even though a core part of Abyssal fluff is that they are, in fact, twisted Solars, who sometimes use twisted Solar Charms. When you are copying a piece of a Charm set entirely, with minor mechanics differences on a Charm-by-Charm basis, then Mirror makes sense.

I want to see Mirror for direct equivalent Charm trees and sections of Charm trees like the training and basic 'cores' of Charm trees, things that have no particular need for a different layout from the Solar version because they do the same thing in a slightly different way. And if you give Abyssals some sort of bizarre nonsense, Solars should already have or get a variety of tangentially-related thing.

But Lunars have a monopoly on combat shapeshifting

No, it's that due to being the splat for shapeshifters they should be the best at it, if only by being more flexible. The Abyssal version should all be focused on the nightmarish monstrosity able and willing to kill entire cities, with little to no capacity outside of that. Except maybe turning into mist or a moving shadow. Those should be Necromancy things, though. Remember, Necromancy isn't just for making the dead come up to serve you or messing with ghosts, it's supposed to be a death-and-entropy focused counterpart to Sorcery. So, all those bizarre effects that have nothing to do with anything Solars or canon Abyssals have should be considered as a Necromancy option.

They don't get to stop the Chosen of Death turning into horrible killing monsters that look like hungry ghosts, shadows covered in eyes, giant vampire bats and big spectral hounds.

I'm fine with that, as long as it's objectively worse than the Lunar equivalent at doing some of the same things and gets access to some weird tricks that the Lunar version doesn't that make it more useful in different things. It should be less versatile and capable of the Lunar playstyle support, because it's being used by a dedicated murder monster.

And, separated from the rest, I reiterate: If an effect you want these Abyssals to have doesn't fit with the core of 'death, decay and entropy' thematics, consider sticking it in Necromancy. Remember, a lot of things Vampires do in a lot of settings comes from learning dark magic. As does literally everything every form of lich in every setting ever can pull. And Necromancy is lacking in the bullshit hax of Sorcery, even though the two are meant to be counterparts. Seriously, most of this stuff you people are suggesting fits in with Necromancy as Sorcery for murderbeasts, soul binders and other nasty magic archetypes.
 
Is that only learnable by infernals and celestials taught by infernals?

It's the Infernal Exalted 'Hero' Style. In 2e, each Exalted type has its own Martial Arts tree that's instinctively learnable by that Exalted, but can also be taught to other types. Infernal Monster (or any other Hero Style) can be taught by anyone who knows it, not just Infernal Exalted (and Infernal Exalted in that statement includes Akuma, not just the Green Sun Princes).

Which is why a lot of Sidereal Exalted know it, because someone picked it up from watching Gorol Thrice-Cursed fight IIRC.

This is, of course, all assuming canon 2e. 3e does away with Hero Styles, for example.
 
Sidereals have such weird charms that a charm which lets them take other forms would not be so weird

Actually, they've already got that in a Resplendent Destiny. The Resplendent Destiny of the Crow lets them turn into a raven, crow, or other corvid. It's just a thing that Sidereals can do, turning into corvids.

(The Crow also lets you get knowledge from dead bodies by eating their eyeballs)
 
Honestly outside of Solars whose themes are basically: 1. Human Excellence, 2. Perfection, 3. GOLDEN ATOMIC SUNFIRE basically every splat can have some combat shapeshifting stuff.

Abyssals and Infernals are pretty obvious. Alchemicals have the transformers aesthetic and variable weapons/tools are common as fuck in the sci-fi they get inspired from. Sidereals have such weird charms that a charm which lets them take other forms would not be so weird. Even Dragonbloods could have some sort of "I turn into a dragon made out of fire/etc" as a charm somewhere in some tree. Maybe a Brotherhood of DBs can turn into Dragon Voltron or someshit as a War charm. :V

But because the Lunar shtick becomes "shapeshifting" this becomes limiting as fuck, and I think it's also a good lesson as to why strong, clearly defined niches are good for all sorts-not just the splat.
I don't know; I think you can work on messing around with how transformations work to really give Lunar shapeshifting its own twist.

Abyssals are your werewolves, your vampires, your yetis; monsters of myth and legend. They become things which hunt and prey on people for their are death. This should be fairly specific in how it is used but lenient in the conditions that allow you to transform. If you're hunting someone, you can go all wolf. Escape in a cloud of bats or rats. That sort of thing
Infernals unleash their inner demon and change their outer form to represent that as it truly is. Hence why you get a sandstorm, a towering demonic visage, or other Final Form shenanigans. This is big scene stealer mode, not something that you just whip out to solve any problem unless your whole point is to go Loud.
Alchemicals are your Transformers and Zoids. They have very specific forms they can take which are super obvious to outsiders and probably very limited. You're not going to see all the creatures of the night than an Abyssal might have, but you're going to be closer to common use than an Infernal. If you need to get from A to B, turn into your big red truck form to move faster.

I don't really think that Solars should have transformation charms. They're the pinnacle of human excellence, not of anything else. Dragonbloods I can see some sort of partial transformation coupled with a Voltron like team transform being; encase your arm in rock to have a giant fuckoff stick or join forces with your allies to make a big elemental murdermachine. Sidereals should be limited to transforming into other people; it's a disguise for them rather than "Bitch I'm a tiger."

Which leaves us with plenty of room for Lunars. My take on Lunars these days is "those who change themselves to solve problems." So they get to be the Alex Mercers of Exalted, transforming freely into various shapes and sizes as the situation demands. You don't have a single Boss Mode transformation; you make your own as it fits the situation. A Solar is so skilled with a hammer that not only can he hammer in any nail in a single blow, but he can remove screws with it perfectly! While a Lunar just turns their hand into an Essence powered Philips-head screwdriver.
 
Abyssals are your werewolves

No, ax-crazy Lunars are your werewolves. Abyssals, though Necromancy, are your vampires taking a bestial form to hunt better or to intimidate.

Escape in a cloud of bats or rats

As with Abyssal-as-werewolf, that goes under 'Necromancy is Sorcery, but more emo.'

I don't really think that Solars should have transformation charms

Given the bullshit hax of canon Sorcery, it should be perfectly fine to have transformation Sorcery Charms.

WHY IS NOBODY THINKING OF PUTTING ALL THE NON-ZOMBIE-OR-VAMPIRE RELATED THINGS IN NECROMANCY!
 
You do realise turning into a cloud of bats of archetypal Vampire? So is turning into a giant Wolf (Dracula did it). And its not just Vamp-n-Zombie. It's horror movie. So hound of the Baskerville and Carrie too.
And those are stated to not be inherent to being a vampire, they are stated to be learned magic. So, Necromancy.
 
Eeeeh... sort of? Sure, there's Tiger, Mantis and Snake styles, but Dreaming Pearl Courtesan isn't so clearly defined as 'imitating' something.

Infernal Monster Style is a pretty 'Malfeas' Martial Art, so that is a valid design space, though.

----

Also, crap, now I'm considering that Alchemical Quest a lot more seriously. I'll get something up in a bit, I suspect.
So is it possible for a martial artist to, say, create a martial arts style based on, say, Isidoros? Or Adjoran the silent wind?
 
Because I don't think most of the people here like necromancy?

The entire point of Necromancy is that it's Sorcery keyed to the nonsense of the paradoxes the Underworld runs on.

Also, putting all that kind of stuff into one ability is a really bad idea. Look at Siderals and the whole 'you are stupid if you don't do martial arts'.

Necromancy and Sorcery need something that makes them more than 'Minion Making Methods 2&3' to make investing in them actually mean something. Sticking outside-splat overlap, wonky nonsense and other stuff that doesn't fit as part of one coherent splat into them makes them worthwhile.
 
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