Crossed Bones
Lesser Dead
Dead by Violence


A pirate is killed while chasing after plunder, cut down by the Imperial Navy or betrayed by his fellows. His greed is so great that death has no hold on him. He desires treasures beyond measure, and there is no fortune in Lethe. He drags himself out of his shallow grave or claws his way ashore, and dead-but-dreaming-of-gold he sets sail once more.

Crossed bones are the ghosts of desperate, greedy men whose lives were stolen by violence. Deprived of that vital treasure, they seek their fortune after death, hoping through the accumulation of wealth to replace the life they lost. Their greed is such that they refuse to let go of material form, and so they quickly acquire skill in animating corpses - usually starting with their own. This protects them from the hateful sun and the befuddling moon, and their greed leads them to drape themselves in fine clothing and jewelry they steal. Crossed bones are dandies and are often found in rotting sea-coats bedecked with golden braid and fine silks. Still, they do not forget that wealth is born of violence and so hooks, cutlasses and boarding sabres are never far from hand.

Some crossed bones find others of their kind, manning vessels and forming ships of the dead. These hulks need no food and no water, and sail endlessly, taking slaves, plundering towns and attacking other vessels for treasure and repair parts alike. Others of these ghosts join with those among the living who feel the same greed in their hearts, and many of these ghosts can be found among the ranks of the ancestor-cultist pirates of the Weeping Fen. Others still leave Creation behind and take up their bloody trade on the Rivers of the Underworld. They are more than willing to serve as privateers for any power if suitably paid, for their greed drives them on and keeps them from sweet Lethe.

Necromancers call upon crossed bones to be sailors and to fight for them. They find it very easy to assume material form, able to inhabit fresh corpses and fleshless skeletons alike. Of a particular note, their greed makes them relatively trustworthy if unbound, for they will only betray their master if they are offered more money. Many a black-hearted captain has considered this a worthwhile deal, to get sailors who never sleep, never tire and cannot drown.
 
The issue I face with Abyssal animal transformation Charms is that while turning into a monstrous wolf or a swarm of scarabs is the sort of thing that Abyssal inspirations often do, it is not something suited to an Ability Charmset, because an Ability Charmset is focused on what you do rather how you do it. It might help to think of Ability Charms as feats and Attribute Charms as tools – broadly speaking, at least. The Attribute Charm won't usually be as direct, because it's not locked in to a single application – it's a tool which you use to enhance or enable a variety of actions. The Ability Charm will be narrower, but much more direct and therefore effective, because it's an act or achievement rather than a tool used to reach that achievement.

In practice the difference can be negligible, but the logic is clear. The Solar organizes her subordinates more efficiently, while the Alchemical has to make herself smarter so that she can organize her subordinates more efficiently.

Translating this into the Abyssal animal dilemma, we find that the Abyssal cannot just transform into an animal. That is a tool, which you use to accomplish a variety of aims such as stealth, travel, survival, tracking, combat gambits, and so on. Instead, the Abyssal can select a goal, and potential transform into an animal as part of reaching that goal. An Abyssal can absolutely explode into a flock of crows when struck and reappear elsewhere (Dodge), or collapse into a swarm of rats to crawl through the gaps in a door (Larceny), or take on a monstrous lupine form for a long trek over even the harshest and broken terrain (Survival).

That's a different issue than just "turning into an animal", though, which is what a Lunar might do.
 
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The issue I face with Abyssal animal transformation Charms is that while turning into a monstrous wolf or a swarm of scarabs is the sort of thing that Abyssal inspirations often do, it is not something suited to an Ability Charmset, because an Ability Charmset is focused on what you do rather how you do it. It might help to think of Ability Charms as feats and Attribute Charms as tools – broadly speaking, at least. The Attribute Charm won't usually be as direct, because it's not locked in to a single application – it's a tool which you use to enhance or enable a variety of actions. The Ability Charm will be narrower, but much more direct and therefore effective, because it's an act or achievement rather than a tool used to reach that achievement.

Pretty much. That's why I suggested transitioning them to Attribute Exalted in the first place. Then you persuaded me that you need the hook of "how does this person's skills in life become a horror story for how they use them for revenge".

Hence, therefore, under the Ability paradigm of "Abyssal Ability Charms are an expression of how a revenant or monster in a horror story would use their skills from life", there are certainly are places for Ability transformations - but they're specifically for certain purposes:
  • The high Survival Abyssal is such a good tracker and knows the ways of nature so well that he becomes a big monstrous stalking animal when he's on the hunt - a Hound of the Baskervilles or man-eating leopard or another "there is no way you are escaping me - you are just my prey" form. These forms are the ones which mock the natural world, and cover the "Dracula becomes an oversized wolf or giant bat" thing, as well as the Hound of the Baskervilles - they can pass as a natural creature from a distance. That's all about knowing nature so well that when your revenge comes, you become a stalking beast that treats your foes as your prey.
  • By contrast, Brawl specifically has a monster form that's much more DTAS-alike, because it's basically an expression of "I am going to fucking murder you with my bare hands". It's "I am so dangerous unarmed that the human form cannot contain my lethality" - and so you get to make your own Alucard form of shadow and eyes or being a burning skeleton or Edward Scissorhands with claws for hands or whatever you feel is appropriate. This cannot pass as a natural creature, in any way. Of course, this basically exists to help you bring the unarmed fighter up to parity with the guy wielding a sword so large it weighs more than he does.
 
I'm making a setting with Green Sun Princes, and Red Moon Princesses.

Well, if you wanna do that, get the Sidereals and Dragonblooded in on it. Have it so that there's 100 of each type of Exalt, as the canon 300 of each got split 3 ways. Or keep the canon-ish ratio of 2-1-1 for the Creation, Hell and Underworld versions, leaving the end total at 150-75-75 for the numbers. Or throw in the Wyld to things twisting Exaltations, for a four-way. Maybe have the Neverborn twist Sidereal and Solar Exaltations, the Yozi twist Solar and Lunar Exaltations and the Raksha twist Lunar and Sidereal Exaltations, to keep the rulesets manageable, with a DB 'element' for each.

Of course, then you need to think up the names, and that's a pretty big issue, and the Charmsets are another pile of worms... Then again, the Mirror keyword was made for conversion ease, so you can use that for the shared 'core' of Charms on the Abyssal-alikes, and the Infernal-alikes can just straight up share some Charm trees.

Yes, I know people hate Mirror, but its existence as a setting element is important because it allows for sharing pieces of Charmsets across splats. Do a little refluffing, add some upside and downside over the original and you have a Charm that's ready to swap out after the 'Become a solar' part of the character's plotline. Or, here, it's just a way to make homebrewing up another Exalt type or four less crazy.
 
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Yes, I know people hate Mirror, but its existence as a setting element is important because it allows for sharing pieces of Charmsets across splats. Do a little refluffing, add some upside and downside over the original and you have a Charm that's ready to swap out after the 'Become a solar' part of the character's plotline. Or, here, it's just a way to make homebrewing up another Exalt type or four less crazy.


I think it is madness to want to cripple the Abyssal Charmset and its own distinctiveness just so it's easier to stop playing an Abyssal and start playing a Solar. I can think of few better ways to discourage people from playing Abyssals than to chain their Charmset to "their stuff works like Solar stuff! Look how easy it is to convert between the two".

At a systemic level, routine use of Mirror makes Solars and Abyssals play alike. The clue is in the name - by chaining the way Abyssals do things to the way Solars do things, you wind up with them looking nearly identical.

I detest Mirror because it is a lazy cognitive shortcut. Yes, many other splats have "a charm which works like the Solar version" - but that's just a way to mechanise a feature you've decided they already have. Only Abyssals labour under the burden of "most of your Charmset must map 1:1 to the Solar Charmset".

And once you discard that as being absolutely horrific for what it does to attempts to write an interesting-in-themselves Abyssal Charmset, the only reason Mirror exists is to try to save wordcount - and it doesn't do that very well. Mirror is no help at all when it comes to writing a new Charmset for a splat. Trust me, I've done it. Mirror Charms take up nearly the same wordcount as... well, take for example Glorious Cosmic Melodies from my Oramus Charmset.

Article:
GLORIOUS COSMIC MELODIES
Cost
: (10-Performance motes); Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisites: Madman's Insight

The Dragon Beyond the World can hear the dance of a least god upon the head of a pin - and the universal melodies the god unknowingly waltzes to. This Charm function as the Solar Charm All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight, save that it works with the Infernal's hearing rather than sight.

This Charm may be repurchased at Essence 3. While this Charm is active, Mad characters who hear his music gain the benefits of Glorious Cosmic Melodies as a Symphonic effect.


This doesn't have the Mirror keyword, and the net saving of that keyword on the Charm would be negligible. Here, I'll convert it to use Mirror.

Article:
GLORIOUS COSMIC MELODIES
Cost
: (10-Performance motes); Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Mirror (All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight)
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisites: Madman's Insight

The Dragon Beyond the World can hear the dance of a least god upon the head of a pin - and the universal melodies the god unknowingly waltzes to. Unlike its Mirror, this Charm works with the Infernal's hearing rather than sight.

This Charm may be repurchased at Essence 3. While this Charm is active, Mad characters who hear his music gain the benefits of Glorious Cosmic Melodies as a Symphonic effect.


The Mirror keyword is not an effective way of saving more than a handful of words per Charm, because you have to repeat all the charm header and add fluff.
 
@Aaron Peori I feel like, if you are going to go that route, you might as well go all in on it. Do away with any distinction between Exaltations other than Celestial and Terrestrial. Solars are just Celestials aspected towards The Unconqueered Sun, Sidereals are the same with the Maidens, and so on and so forth. Maybe this is the "blank slate" of Exaltation that Autochthon made, before the Incarnae flavored them towards themselves, and they just didn't get a chance to do that here? Or decided to leave the choice up to the individual Exalts?
 
Well, if you wanna do that, get the Sidereals and Dragonblooded in on it. Have it so that there's 100 of each type of Exalt, as the canon 300 of each got split 3 ways. Or keep the canon-ish ratio of 2-1-1 for the Creation, Hell and Underworld versions, leaving the end total at 150-75-75 for the numbers. Or throw in the Wyld to things twisting Exaltations, for a four-way. Maybe have the Neverborn twist Sidereal and Solar Exaltations, the Yozi twist Solar and Lunar Exaltations and the Raksha twist Lunar and Sidereal Exaltations, to keep the rulesets manageable, with a DB 'element' for each.

Of course, then you need to think up the names, and that's a pretty big issue, and the Charmsets are another pile of worms... Then again, the Mirror keyword was made for conversion ease, so you can use that for the shared 'core' of Charms on the Abyssal-alikes, and the Infernal-alikes can just straight up share some Charm trees.

Yes, I know people hate Mirror, but its existence as a setting element is important because it allows for sharing pieces of Charmsets across splats. Do a little refluffing, add some upside and downside over the original and you have a Charm that's ready to swap out after the 'Become a solar' part of the character's plotline. Or, here, it's just a way to make homebrewing up another Exalt type or four less crazy.
I'm mostly changing things so that first, during the Usurpation, most of the Lunar were ganked too. Second, the exaltation capture thing is worse at getting the Lunars then Solars. So when the Yozi bargain fir fifty of each, they get fewer Solars and more Lunars.
 
@Aaron Peori I feel like, if you are going to go that route, you might as well go all in on it. Do away with any distinction between Exaltations other than Celestial and Terrestrial. Solars are just Celestials aspected towards The Unconqueered Sun, Sidereals are the same with the Maidens, and so on and so forth. Maybe this is the "blank slate" of Exaltation that Autochthon made, before the Incarnae flavored them towards themselves, and they just didn't get a chance to do that here? Or decided to leave the choice up to the individual Exalts?

Nah, because Solar, Sidereals and Alchemicals all have distinct themes separate from 'gaining power via emulating specific principles'.

Solars have the breadth and depth of human excellence and leadership as their primary theme of their Charms. Sun theming is more a flavor or paint job than it is any focus of their actual Charms. Even Holy effects arise out of a very human conception of religious thought, you condemn that which is anathema to your society (ie Creation) rather than inherently evil.

Sidereals don't really emulate the Maidens directly either. You never get the impression they are learning Jupiter Charms. They are learning Charm based on astrological signs and the secrets of Fate. More importantly their Charms are linked to the constellation and the bureaucracy of Yu Shan and the way the Loom of Fate works. They don't transgress by making pacts with outside powers, they divine secrets of the laws of Creation and impose them and have tricks and exploits.

Alchemicals are driven by their need for infrastructure and community support. They can't exist without a small army of mortals dedicated to producing their spare parts and swapping in and out their Charms and providing maintenance and guidance. They don't steal Autocthon's power but are instead fruits of his genius.

Lunars, on the other hand, have always had that flavor of being the shapeshifting witches and tricksters, the people who steal animal forms to gain their powers and devour humans to gain their shape. I just pumped it up so that they steal their powers from the Principles invested by Primordials rather than just beasts or elementals. As for the Shinma themed ones... honestly, I just wanted a Celestial Tier opponent in the Fair Folk but also wanted it to be limited outside the ability of raksha to reproduce. Lunars fit the theme and I like the way chimeras became protean and it would allow a subset of Lunars to have illusions and glamour as a primary theme.
 
routine use of Mirror makes Solars and Abyssals play alike.
I'm saying use it for the things that have limited ways to implement the mechanics, and to use the idea behind it as a shortcut to making Charms. The keyword can be discarded, if wanted, but the idea behind it, taking Solar charms and adjusting them to fit Abyssals, is the thing I see for time saving.

Using the Mirror keyword would make it so that if you include the 'Become a Solar' option, it's less bookkeeping. Also, it makes it less insulting to have the rules text be 'Like this Charm, except for these one or two things." I want it to be used for the Charms that are, because of shared concepts, almost 1:1 anyways. Like training Charms, or basic Melee effects.
 
I'm saying use it for the things that have limited ways to implement the mechanics, and to use the idea behind it as a shortcut to making Charms. The keyword can be discarded, if wanted, but the idea behind it, taking Solar charms and adjusting them to fit Abyssals, is the thing I see for time saving.

Using the Mirror keyword would make it so that if you include the 'Become a Solar' option, it's less bookkeeping. Also, it makes it less insulting to have the rules text be 'Like this Charm, except for these one or two things." I want it to be used for the Charms that are, because of shared concepts, almost 1:1 anyways. Like training Charms, or basic Melee effects.
...If the splat isn't worth your time to invest in making them all new unique charms, is it really worth making at all?
 
...If the splat isn't worth your time to invest in making them all new unique charms, is it really worth making at all?
Why waste time and page space on the near-identical Charms when you can focus on making more new unique Carms? All of these would get new, unique Charms, but they would also share Charms or have Charms that are just 'Like X, except for this thing.' If the splat's fluff is that they are altered versions of existing Exalts, then they ought to have quite a bit of similarity in Charms.

For the 'Red Moon Princesses' situation, the Green Sun Princes would get some new, Solar based 'core' Charms, just simple things that don't fit any of the Yozi or fit the idea of 'warped Solar' so much better, mostly for the sake of justifying why the Lunar-based Infernals have altered versions of some of the Lunar Charms. In addition, the Lunar-based Infernals would share some of the Yozi Charm trees to lower the pressure on making trees for Yozi that fit Lunar-based Infernals more than Solar-based ones.
 
So in honor of halloween, does anyone want to get together (digitally) and try to bang out the monster!Abyssals idea that's been going around into something usable, like TAW?
 
I have just reread my posts and I'm still not entirely sure what you're referring to, so apparently it is.

Abyssals have one general thematic all in common: Death, and Being Cursed.

From this, a multitude of charm tree concepts can be derived: Killing and Hunting, the Dead and the Underworld, Madness and Dark Emotions (death of the mind or happiness), the Past (Time-that-has-died), Memories (remnants of the past), Stagnation and Stasis, Shadows and the Night (death of light and the day), causes of death such as Hunger, Strife, Plague and Pests, Animals associated with death (scavengers, man-eaters, animals of the night, poisonous animals, animals associated with bad luck), Curses, Ill Fate, and Bad Luck, Servitude and Slavery (death of freedom and the individual), Sacrifice and Power at a Price, Change (specifically, sweeping, revolutionary, and irreversible change with wide-ranging sideeffects that's a death of the present state just as much as burning it all down would be, to contrast the Lunar's more free-form back-and-forth change), Tranquility and Stillness (peaceful as a grave), and so on.

Additionally, Resonance provides either an incentive for them to go out and do stuff, or else a cause for stuff regularly happening around and to them.


From this, from the combination of how an Abyssal handles Resonance and which Charms he takes [1], you then can build individual thematics; The Cursed Hero trying to make the best of what happened to him despite all adversity, the Dark Avenger, the Unrepentant Murderer, the tranquil Boddishatva of Death, the Mindless Beast, the Pityful Maniac who sacrificed everything for power, etc.

[1]: For optimal results, make Charm Learning dependant on the Player's OoC decisions, with the IC Character possibly having less than perfect control over it.
I'm referring to the stuff you're saying in this post and your previous ones. Like, I mention stuff just being linked by a skin, and your response is "Where did I say that? All I'm saying is that the only thing linking them would be a broad, generic thing like death". Or you focus down on an overly specific example, like the idea that apparently "having melee charms" is a character concept in your mind, and one that your were worried wouldn't be supported for unspecified reasons.

The fact that you want each abyssal to be largely unique in thematics...it's going to be a cluttered mess that's largely unapproachable, or leave quite a lot to the individual tables to homebrew. Not to mention the issues with having multiple players all wanting to play different versions of abyssal. They don't have to be the same, but at the moment your argument seems less about Abyssals as a type of exalted and more for Abyssals to be a generic name for a group of different types of exalted, like using celestials or creation exalted.
 
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So in honor of halloween, does anyone want to get together (digitally) and try to bang out the monster!Abyssals idea that's been going around into something usable, like TAW?

Okay, I've got a discord and a google doc for the Monsters of Death Abyssals. Now all I need is someone (or someones) to work with.

I feel like putting out a general recruitment announcement like this runs into the complication that not everyone in the thread prefers the same mechanical framework for Exalted. EarthScorpion and Aleph have their hacks, a bunch of us like Ex3, you have your own rules rework you were working on a while back, and so on.
 
So in honor of halloween, does anyone want to get together (digitally) and try to bang out the monster!Abyssals idea that's been going around into something usable, like TAW?

"Bang out" doesn't exist as a concept for Charmsets. It took me on the order of a month to do Oramus, and that's one fifth of the size of a corebook Charmset.

Anyway, Abyssals are functional at the moment. Blandly functional about summarises them, as they're Solars with black eye shadow [1]. So really, it can be done a lot more progressively than other Charmsets, because you can swap out their Charm trees for non-Mirror ones.

[1] Not Black Ice Shadow - he's a Sidereal.
 
I feel like putting out a general recruitment announcement like this runs into the complication that not everyone in the thread prefers the same mechanical framework for Exalted. EarthScorpion and Aleph have their hacks, a bunch of us like Ex3, you have your own rules rework you were working on a while back, and so on.
For the purposes of this we'll be using 2.5, unless I get shouted down by everyone or something. People are then free to create a splinter group for Ex3, adapt it to their own hacks, or whatever.
I'd be interested. I need something to do for Novel Writing Month anyway.
Great! Feel free to hop on the Discord and google doc in my post above. Right now I'm still setting things up, and then I plan on starting to put forward some project basics, mostly stuff that we've discussed in thread already.

"Bang out" doesn't exist as a concept for Charmsets. It took me on the order of a month to do Oramus, and that's one fifth of the size of a corebook Charmset.

Anyway, Abyssals are functional at the moment. Blandly functional about summarises them, as they're Solars with black eye shadow [1]. So really, it can be done a lot more progressively than other Charmsets, because you can swap out their Charm trees for non-Mirror ones.
Well, I meant in the sense that I was planning on doing a writing jam over the next couple days if I got enough interest, mostly because it's Halloween and I'm getting in the spirit.

Tripleposting ftw

I've gone through and added the inspirations that I think we should use for each Ability. I'd appreciate if someone were to comment on my choices/come up with ideas for the ones that I don't have.
 
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swap out their Charm trees for non-Mirror ones

But what if we like having a Mirror charm tree or two? Like the training Charms in War. That is a place Mirror is helpful. Although I do think that several of the things being done would fit a lot better for a Lunar Abyssal equivalent. 'Turn into killer monster' is the entire thing of one of the Lunar archetypes. And you want to make Abyssals, a Solar based Exalt, better at it? I'm fine with Frankensteining, it kinda fits with Abyssals, but unless the ruleset for the setup is extremely limited or costs a lot more to have as you one thing than doing it as a Lunar, I don't want to see it.
 
But what if we like having a Mirror charm tree or two? Like the training Charms in War. That is a place Mirror is helpful.
I'm just going to point you at ES's previous point on this:
The Dragon Beyond the World can hear the dance of a least god upon the head of a pin - and the universal melodies the god unknowingly waltzes to. This Charm function as the Solar Charm All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight, save that it works with the Infernal's hearing rather than sight.
...
This doesn't have the Mirror keyword, and the net saving of that keyword on the Charm would be negligible. Here, I'll convert it to use Mirror.
You can have the helpful "not typing out the full text of an existing charm" benefit of Mirror charms by just saying "this functions the same as [charm x]" for important charms, while still easily retaining separate mechanics and flavor.
 
But what if we like having a Mirror charm tree or two? Like the training Charms in War. That is a place Mirror is helpful. Although I do think that several of the things being done would fit a lot better for a Lunar Abyssal equivalent. 'Turn into killer monster' is the entire thing of one of the Lunar archetypes. And you want to make Abyssals, a Solar based Exalt, better at it? I'm fine with Frankensteining, it kinda fits with Abyssals, but unless the ruleset for the setup is extremely limited or costs a lot more to have as you one thing than doing it as a Lunar, I don't want to see it.

... the way you write a Charm for a splat without using Mirror is you go and write the damn Charm. And so you aren't chained by the Solar Charm structure, because that's what Mirror does. It chains Abyssals so that their Charm trees must map to the Solar ones. Infernals don't need Mirror to have multiple-action charms. Sidereals don't need Mirror to have parry-boosting Charms. Dragonblooded don't need mirror to have "talk to people better" Charms. So Abyssals don't need Mirror to have training Charms.

I have no clue why you keep on going on about this. All the other splats borrow mechanics from each other just fine without needing a keyword which means you're less flexible at stealing mechanics from another splat to serve the interests of the one you're writing for.

And I have no respect at all for any argument which begins with "But Lunars have a monopoly on combat shapeshifting because they're werewolves and Garou form is theirs!". I rewrote all of Lunars to yank them out of that prison. It results in very stupid things, like ascribing any character who shapeshifts as being a Lunar, and commits the terminal sin of conflating aesthetic with thematics. It locks Lunars into a combat paradigm which forces them to turn into a half-man-half-beast hybrid, all because of "muh oWoD" legacy code.

Lunars are big boys and can stand on their own two feet. They don't get to stop the Chosen of Death turning into horrible killing monsters that look like hungry ghosts, shadows covered in eyes, giant vampire bats and big spectral hounds.
 
Shit, I just remembered the other thing I wanted to do with 2e.

Namely, Alchemical Exalted.

...hrm. Whether to make an Alchemical Quest or not...
 
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