My point wasn't that it was one of those two but neither (no roofies needed, not a decent relationship). Its certainly very questionable but also likely the outcome of making it so 100 people can only hope to socially interact with each other in any meaningful way as if same.

Given that they broke up, it probably wasn't a very nice relationship yes.

I get the Kejak's relation with Ayn isn't necessarily sex slavery. but its still a very high superior involved with a subordinate who he has waaay too much control for them to hope to begin to be equals on. Him pursuing the relationship out of transference and regret for his old friend makes his actions somewhat easier to empathize with, but doesn't change, older guy who's job it is to guide this girl who likely has access to her psych and destiny records and so on ends up in a relationship with him that awakens the spirit he sought reunion with but instead instilled bitter disdain and hatred.

I believe you mean Ayesha here, when you say Ayn it reminds me of Anys Syn, who is Chejop Kejak's second-in-command and who can probably fight him on an equal level for some time.

And we don't actually know why he sought that relationship in the first place, this is the thing:

I have never actually said that their relationship was like this, only that I used them like this at my table, you are completely free to do something else at your table.

Its also an excellent metaphor for Creation or the Solars or any of Kejak's chosen-by-him-their-opinion-may-be-taken-into-account charges. He's giving them the best he can allowing them to benefit from his wisdom and even loves them, intimately, but they remember and feels they are being held back, lied to, and were betrayed (see. end of Madoka Rebellion) Even if Kejak operates out of a very valid rational the means he chooses are corrupt and corrupting and so we should see that corruption not just make him, oddly, walking talking hypothetical benevolent shadow tyrant

Maybe they do.

Maybe Kejak really is drawback to the Sidereals, an old and wicked man who would rather cage the wonders of Creatio than give it a second chance at glory, an obsolete relic of another age, whose relevance fades with his youth and whom Creation really is better off without.

But whether he is actually corrupt or not is up to personal interpretation and desire for the setting and not explicit as written.
 
But whether he is actually corrupt or not is up to personal interpretation and desire for the setting and not explicit as written.
Well corrupt in that specific manner anyway. All Sidereals are corrupt according to their job descriptions as they aren't supposed to by playing Civilization 5 with creation. Good intentions or not the stuff both factions get up to is mostly against the rules.
 
Saying that demonstrates a rather fundamental misunderstanding of what the station of Sacrifice involves, honestly. It could have been the most wonderful, glorious thing-

But it was holding her back in some way. So, she abandoned it.

I keep forgetting that she sacrificed it damnit.

Well corrupt in that specific manner anyway. All Sidereals are corrupt according to their job descriptions as they aren't supposed to by playing Civilization 5 with creation. Good intentions or not the stuff both factions get up to is mostly against the rules.

Bronze and Gold: "Shut up, we're justified! :anger:"
 
Well corrupt in that specific manner anyway. All Sidereals are corrupt according to their job descriptions as they aren't supposed to by playing Civilization 5 with creation. Good intentions or not the stuff both factions get up to is mostly against the rules.

Yes, but when you think about it, it's not like rules set by gods are really legitimate, right? :V
 
Chejop Kejak/Sidreals in general in regards to Creation or the Incarne with the Games of Divinity... "I'll get around to fixing Creation right away, but just let me make one more turn."
 
Yes, but when you think about it, it's not like rules set by gods are really legitimate, right? :V

Behold my flawless logic:

I, Joe Sidereal can use Terminal Sanction to relieve a god of it's job.

You generally have to be higher rank than an employee to relieve them of their job.

Thus I must be higher rank than every god I can use Terminal Sanction on.

Behold! :V
 
Behold my flawless logic:

I, Joe Sidereal can use Terminal Sanction to relieve a god of it's job.

You generally have to be higher rank than an employee to relieve them of their job.

Thus I must be higher rank than every god I can use Terminal Sanction on.

Behold! :V

My logic is also flawless:

Any god is basically putty in the hands of a socially-specced akuma of Cecelyne.

Gods can be akuma.

Yu Shan is a bureaucratic hellhole that requires extreme social skill to rise to the top of.

Therefore all important gods must be suspected as being akuma.

If there's even a 1% chance that Heaven is being run by an akuma, we must treat it as if it's a 100% chance.

Therefore gods should not be allowed to run things.

After all, they're a species of middle managers.

Therefore we need to put someone in charge who isn't a god.

An experienced candidate is better than an inexperienced candidate

The only candidates with experience at running Heaven who aren't gods are the Yozis.

Therefore we should put the Yozis in charge of Heaven to avoid the risk of a Cecelynian akuma.

FLAWLESS. LOGIC.
 
..,also, I just saw the Infernal Id rules for Kerisgame, and, well...

*has ideas*

Like I've said before, while overall I like 3e better, if someone ever ran an Infernals game featuring @EarthScorpion And @Aleph's homebrew, I'd at least give it a try, because the Pantheon rules are freaking sweet.
 
..,also, I just saw the Infernal Id rules for Kerisgame, and, well...

*has ideas*

Like I've said before, while overall I like 3e better, if someone ever ran an Infernals game featuring @EarthScorpion And @Aleph's homebrew, I'd at least give it a try, because the Pantheon rules are freaking sweet.

I'm very tempted, but time is a precious resource to me.

Also, I live in Denmark and you live in Australia, so the time zones would be all kind of fucked.
 
..,also, I just saw the Infernal Id rules for Kerisgame, and, well...

*has ideas*

Like I've said before, while overall I like 3e better, if someone ever ran an Infernals game featuring @EarthScorpion And @Aleph's homebrew, I'd at least give it a try, because the Pantheon rules are freaking sweet.
I do wonder how well they would work in a 5 player game rather than a solo-game. The internal Pantheon looks like it will use up a lot of time and attention for every character.
 
Keris is a bit weird for giving them personalities before being able to externalise them. By intent, by the time they're characters, they'll be an external Pantheon (and you can try to convince your Circlemate to do something with you by bribing their curiosity).
 
Like I've said before, while overall I like 3e better, if someone ever ran an Infernals game featuring @EarthScorpion And @Aleph's homebrew, I'd at least give it a try, because the Pantheon rules are freaking sweet.

what's that you say, you reminded me to post something i've had sitting in the depths of my 62k word Exalted working document for a while?

(Yes, it's another example of me taking elements from the canon Devil Tiger tree and making them a) more PC accessible, b) more fitting, and c) IMO, more fun.)

An Usurpation Unnoticed
Cost:
-; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Titanic Heart Overweening

Some among the green sun princes may tire of the watcher imposed on them by jealous titans. Pity the unwoven coadjutor who finds themselves caught in such a position.

This charm may only be learned by a warlock with the Unwoven Coadjutor background rated at 0 dots. Upon learning this charm, a soul of the Infernal's choice devours their hated coadjutor and takes its place. Such an infusion of power elevates it to the position of a fetich. It becomes a Third Circle Demon and spawns seven Second Circle demons that may be manifested using this Charm's prerequisite or summoned by the Infernal using sorcery. The fetich can no longer manifest in the outside world, for men are more jealous than Primordials and hide their hearts within their chests.

The Infernal's Unwoven Coadjutor background is replaced by a Fetich background, which is mechanically identical and satisfies any requirements for Charms with the Unwoven keyword. The level of the Fetich background should be determined by the Infernal's relationship with their new inner heart. The Infernal's Urge is permanently set to the Motivation of their fetich, and the player and the ST should devise an appropriate Act of Villainy for the character. The Yozis and Unquestionable may no longer control the Infernal's Urge.

An alternate version of this Charm exists, which may only be learned by an Infernal with the Unwoven Coadjutor background rated at 5. If this version of the Charm is learned, the warlock instead shatters their beloved coadjutor's bonds to the Yozis and lets it suckle deep upon the terrible power of their Exaltation, elevating it to a fetich. The Charm is otherwise mechanically identical.
 
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An alternate version of this Charm exists, which may only be learned by an Infernal with the Unwoven Coadjutor background rated at 5. If this version of the Charm is learned, the warlock instead shatters their beloved coadjutor's bonds to the Yozis and lets it suckle deep upon the terrible power of their Exaltation, elevating it to a fetich. The Charm is otherwise mechanically identical.
KERISSSSSSSSS
 
So has anyone built the most broken possible plain-jane unexalted mortal yet? Enlightened heroic mortal being the limit, assuming someone was born normal. 15 mote pool (if I recall correctly) to use for attunement.

Assume a disgusting number of backgrounds. Artifacts, hearthstones, etc. What's the limit?
 
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The Lovers is a pretty bad view of relationships, but the House of Serenity as a whole is more complex.
For the sake of argument I just checked up on this, and uh. That's generally not the case, most of them are still pretty dire and uttered detached from any emotional ties most people have on that general outlook.

The Ewer is about fantasy, romanticism and the ideals of Love. Not love with a person, but becoming enamored towards the concept itself. Which can lead to obsession and destruction of any prize which was sought out purely in the name of unrealistic or impossible love. Its Romeo and Juliet, where the high-minded dreams of two misguided teens ends up destroying eachother. It associates this with things like doomed revolutionaries and incestuous couplings.

The Musician isn't really about relationships at all, but enjoying living it up like a rockstar hedonist. For what its worth though, its also the sign of homosexuality which shares associations with greed, excess, drug-use and extramarital pairings. Dang.

The Peacock is straight-up partner-as-resource, love of what you can take from relationships with people, rather than value of them as a human being. Its about familial bloodlines, breeding and marriages-of-alliance, creating (or forcing) bonds between people for personal gain and leveraging advantages by that partnership. Greed pops up again here, in addition to traps and distractions, procreation as a means of obtaining heirs, and necessity.

The Pillar is about institutions, enduring forces and groups/pairs with a shared love as much as it is properly about love and connections with people. As much as it associates this with stability and commonality, that isn't always a positive either. Stagnation and stasis are other forms of stability, and it makes a point to bring up lingering effects of bad parenting as well as the entrenched face of unjust authority into things. The only "good" partnership in this vein is where that shared love is explicitly nonsexual/asexual, like family, friends or a business partner with comparable goals.

Here is what we can take away from the House of Serenity: Dreams detached from the realities of love will collapse catastrophically. Love driven by lust and pleasure-seeking is inherently unequal and predatory. Same-sex coupling is a form of frivolous decadence. People are a sum of communal resources and social advantages to be made use of. And lastly, the only Pure love is the kind which doesn't include sex or intimacy whatsoever, but dedicated commitment towards something.

That's... pretty cynical across the board, even if it does acknowledge things like idealism, righteousness, caring and intimacy are possible.
 
Its Romeo and Juliet, where the high-minded dreams of two misguided teens ends up destroying eachother.
That is not what the play is about. I need a nap, so I'mma just quote somebody who claims to have a degree in this, and can weave enough rigorous analysis in that I believe them:
POINT THE SECOND: Romeo and Juliet's love affair didn't kill no-fucking-body.

THE FEUD killed four people (Mercrutio, Tybalt, Romeo and Juliet) and Paris being a fucking gross and uncompassionate selfrighteous dick killed two more.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT Mercrutio and Tybalt! The morning after the Capulet party, Tybalt wants to kill Romeo. He wants to kill him, not because of his cousin - as neither he nor anyone else has the FAINTEST IDEA that Romeo and Juliet are in love - but because Romeo showed up at the Capulet party the night before PERIOD.

One: Romeo didn't even want to go to the party. Mercrutio insisted (and insisted, and insisted) that they gate-crash in masks. Two, Capulet, Tybalt's uncle and the head of his family and THE GUY IN CHARGE basically told Tybalt to chill out, it's fine. Tybalt's devotion to The Feud is so intense that he's ignoring that because of the ~*insult*~ Romeo has done the Capulets. Three, the Prince just said YESTER-FUCKING-DAY that if he caught anyone feuding again he was going to kill them.

Remember the previous day? When Romeo didn't know Juliet from Eve nor she from Adam, but we opened the play with servants fantasizing about killing the other sides male servants and raping their female ones? Because of The Feud? Just checking.

Tybalt gives no fucks. Tybalt is going to avenge ~*his family's honour*~ by at the very least beating the shit out of if not killing Romeo.

And you know what Romeo does *because of his love for and romance with Juliet?*

He refuses to engage. He says no, Tybalt, I know you hate me but I don't hate you and I'm not going to pay attention to the insults you're slinging at me, I apologize for wrongs I've done, let's call it all fair. No, I'm still not gonna fight you even if you keep insulting me.

For love of Juliet, Romeo tries like crazy NOT TO FIGHT.

Mercrutio, on the other hand, either can't stand to see Romeo insulted or thinks because he's the Prince's nephew he's special and the no-brawling rule doesn't apply to him, pulls out his sword and starts to fight. It's IRONIC that in trying to stop Tybalt and Mercrutio, Romeo gets in the way of Mercrutio's parry and gets stabbed, but it's also Mercrutio's own damn fault. His "a plague o'both your houses" speech may be very quotable and thunderous, but it's also hypocritical as hell, considering how DELIGHTED he was to participate in their Feud for his own amusement right up till he got stabbed.

(Watch out for Shakespeare: he likes to do things like that.)

This, really, is the point of the entire prince's bloodline in this play: they every damn one of them think they can just sort of ignore or deal lightly with the Feud, and the Feud gets them.

So that's two for the Feud.

Then Juliet fakes her own death. Well, actually, after being told by her father she has no choice but to marry Paris whether she wants to or not, and RIGHT NOW, or he'll physically throw her out on the streets to starve to death or whore herself, she shows up in Friar Lawrence's cell saying "fix this or I will fucking kill myself."

And Friar Lawrence is a coward and fails her. Because here's the thing: she and Romeo are married. End of story. All Lawrence has to do to FORCE the Prince to get involved and give them protection (or for that matter the local bishops and even the pope) is walk out there and say "they're married, I witnessed it, we're done."

The thing is, this is entirely likely to get the FRIAR into a metric shittonne of trouble. So instead he concocts this huge complicated bullshit plan, and to the appearance of everyone except Lawrence and Juliet, she dies. Then Romeo thinks she's dead so he kills himself, then she finds him dead and kills HERSELF and wait why was this all a problem in the first place?

OH RIGHT, because of the Feud. (Otherwise frankly the Romeo/Juliet match is fucking AMAZING and would give both families the economic power to dominate Italy. Seriously they're idiots.)

Now, on his way in to kill himself Romeo also kills Paris and Paris' servant, in both cases in self-defense. They're there because despite Juliet rejecting him Paris basically feels a proprietary ownership of her DEAD BODY because her father promised him her living one. Basically.

Just think about that for a while. Think of how GROSS that is. Because it's really gross.

Those are the only two deaths you can sooooort of blame on the actual romance. I feel they're more appropriately blamed on patriarchy, but whatever makes you happy.

But. The point is: THIS PLAY IS ABOUT HOW THE FEUD KILLS PEOPLE. Like it literally tells us this in the prologue. "Two households, both alike in dignity/in fair Verona where we lay our scene/from ancient grudge break to new mutiny/where civil blood makes civil hands unclean." Aka "so these two idiot families start brawling and killing each other over an old grudge." The relevance of the children is not that they were in love: it's that they were BECAUSE of their parents DOOMED. That's what "star-crossed" means. It means "you are fucked". It means "fate says you can't have this." Their "misadventured, piteous overthrows" - aka their fucked up, incredibly sad efforts - "doth with their death bury their parents' strife."

This is a tragedy about how THEIR PARENTS STRIFE killed them. They're doomed from the start. And you know what Romeo and Juliet's romance - their "death-marked love", which is to say "the love that will get THEM killed" - ACTUALLY FUCKING DOES?

It saves Verona.

"The fearful passage of their death-marked love/and the continuance of their parents' rage/WHICH BUT THEIR CHILDREN'S END, NAUGHT COULD REMOVE/is now the two-hours' traffic of our stage."

Again, translating for those who need it: this really sad and fear-inducing story of their totally fucking doomed romance, and how NOTHING BUT THEM DYING would make their parents stop fighting, is what we're going to show you in the next two hours."

People were already dying from the feud. They were being injured. Property was being damaged. Brawls were spreading out and killing innocent bystanders. *The Montagues and Capulets were effectively having a gang war.* What Romeo and Juliet did was *make it stop*. Except that everyone involved, the Prince included, had their heads so far up their asses that nothing but their children killing THEMSELVES because of THE PARENTS' ACTIONS (or in the Prince's case two of his relatives getting killed along the way) could make them realize oh shit, this is not good, and make peace.

The Prince reiterates this in his closing remarks, in case anyone missed it, even blaming himself: "and I, for winking at your discords, too have lost a brace of kinsmen."

Modern readers should actually hone in on this pretty well, because we're still doing this shit. The publicized suicides of queer kids, of girls who were raped, of trans kids - notice how there are all these things a lot of society was fucking ignoring until those happened?

(And actually killing yourself explicitly to bring attention to the wrongs and abuses being done to you that you cannot escape was a cultural norm even then, and can be found behind a ton of ghost stories and revenge stories. Shakespeare knew what he was doing.)

POINT THE THIRD: let's talk about Romeo and Rosalind vs Romeo and Juliet.

Some context: Shakespeare is not a boy band. Shakespeare is Fall Out Boy. NEVER take anything he's saying at surface level. His most famous cycle of sonnets is actually a super bleak charting of the failure of love between an older and younger man that sort of devolves into this sordid triangle between Narrator, Golden Youth and Dark Lady, and that whole "my mistress' eyes" sonnet is nowhere near as complimentary or appearance-positive as people seem to think it is. (The Narrator - who is a character in his own right - is tearing down other women, not elevating his mistress.)

So there was this guy named Petrarch, who popularized the sonnet to HIS format (in Italian) by writing a whole bunch of poems to Laura, who was unobtainable, not interested in him, and eventually dead. THIS BECAME THE FASHION: devoted love and adoration to this woman you couldn't have, who didn't want you, and perferrably died chaste so you could idealize her without fear she'd do something human. And Romeo is ABSOLUTELY being a Pining Petrarchan Lover with Rosalind. He's also writing cliche drivel so cliche it's MEANT to sound like cliche drivel, to a woman we never even see on-stage.

Then there's Juliet. And you know what the BIG difference is with Juliet?

Juliet is right there. She's *PARTICIPANT*. She is matching him passion for passion and lust for lust and, in poetic form, EVEN LINE FOR LINE. Their speech together COMBINES into sonnets - SHAKESPEAREAN sonnets, aka the form Shakespeare made up for himself because he thought Petrarch's wasn't as cool. And suddenly cliches are being thrown out. The cliche was the mistress being the moon: fuck it, Romeo says, Juliet is the SUN; the cliche was to swear by the moon, the stars, and Juliet says no don't do that, swear by YOU. They even get into blasphemy. Juliet is the OPPOSITE of a Petrarchan mistress: she is right there, she is SO right into Romeo right back, she's alive, and the more he encounters her and the more she's human and wanting and silly and joking the more he adores her. He loves her MORE after they've fucked, after Juliet is manifestly no longer the chaste unachievable idol.

Is it true love? Who knows. They're both babies, and it's a play: conventions of the theatre DO allow for people to fall in love at first sight. But whether it's love or just infatuation, the point is they're both right there, they're both feeling it equally and as partners, and Juliet gets to be a living participant with her own desires.

(Like seriously her wedding-night speech before she finds out Tybalt's dead is pretty damn sexy, guys.)

And whether or not it's love or infatuation the play and the text very clearly come together to indicate that what's between Juliet and Romeo is DIFFERENT than that crap with Rosalind.
SUMMARY: Romeo and Juliet is a stunningly rich play that is mostly about how feuds fuck people over badly and how if you have to wait until YOUR KIDS OFF THEMSELVES to figure that out you deserve to lose your children. Romeo and Juliet are victims of the feud and its mindless death-lust, not perpetrators of death on others. They're not supposed to be figures of ridicule OR representatives of True Love: they're supposed to make the audience go "oh BABIES, no, you're going to end so badly" and then be sad when they do.
 
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That is not what the play is about. I need a nap, so I'mma just quote somebody who claims to have a degree in this, and can weave enough rigorous analysis in that I believe them:
This is pretty good. Although the impression I got of the play back when I studied it in depth was that the older heads of both families were already tired of the feud, and that if Romeo and Juliet had opened up about their secret marriage it would have been the excuse they needed to put their differences aside - it was hothead youth like Tybalt who were the most invested in it.


Tybalt
Uncle, this is a Montague, our foe,
A villain that is hither come in spite,
To scorn at our solemnity this night.

Capulet
Young Romeo is it?

Tybalt
'Tis he, that villain Romeo.

Capulet
Content thee, gentle coz, let him alone;
He bears him like a portly gentleman;
And, to say truth, Verona brags of him
To be a virtuous and well-govern'd youth:
I would not for the wealth of all the town
Here in my house do him disparagement:
Therefore be patient, take no note of him:
It is my will, the which if thou respect,
Show a fair presence and put off these frowns,
And ill-beseeming semblance for a feast.
 
Hey, so recently I saw an Exalted thread on SB and I, in a fit of masochistic self-loathing, decided to respond, despite all the warning signs in the title.

After having a little back and forth, I decided I should probably ask this thread if I'm being unreasonable when I say that Solars shouldn't be able to become Devil Tigers and that Primordial Principle Emulation is a dumb Charm.

For your amusement.
 
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Hey, so recently I saw an Exalted thread on SB and I, in a fit of masochistic self-loathing, decided to respond, despite all the warning signs in the title.

After having a little back and forth, I decided I should probably ask this thread if I'm being unreasonable when I say that Solars shouldn't be able to become Devil Tigers and that Primordial Principle Emulation is a dumb Charm.

For your self-flagellation.

Stop right there.

Go meditate over the Dragons and cleanse your mind of this filthy heresy.
 
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