General Exalted Thread

[horngeek]

What were we talking about?

@EarthScorpion, you seem to have a good grip of yourself, can you answer my question.

Click to shrink...

Ayesha Ura, I think her name was, used to be Chejop's lover, but cast that aside when she initiated into Celestial Sorcery as her Sacrifice.

 

[Ct613hulu]

I personally viewed it as being a bit more profound than simply losing a boyfriend. My interpretation is that her initiation into Celestial Sorcery involved recognizing that someone she deeply respected on a personal and professional level was responsible for a horrible tragedy that may not have been a necessary evil. This seems like it could be the start of a great conversation regarding the nature of the Usurpation and how it shaped Creation. Reducing that down to some kind of simple lovers quarrel seems like a very poor idea that lessens the story.

 

[horngeek]

I personally viewed it as being a bit more profound than simply losing a boyfriend. My interpretation is that her initiation into Celestial Sorcery involved recognizing that someone she deeply respected on a personal and professional level was responsible for a horrible tragedy that may not have been a necessary evil. This seems like it could be the start of a great conversation regarding the nature of the Usurpation and how it shaped Creation. Reducing that down to some kind of simple lovers quarrel seems like a very poor idea that lessens the story.

Click to shrink...

You're absolutely right- but I was on my phone and was quick about my post.

 

[Kaiya]

My read on it was that she recognized that it was distracting her too much from what she needed to do, and she needed to cast it aside if she was gonna accomplish greater things, so she chose to let her love of him go.

 

[Ct613hulu]

I really dislike this interpretation because it essentially states the central motivation for her career as a leader and fervent opposition to the status quo dominance of the Bronze Faction is her failed relationship with a man. This seems like a really bad idea that lessens the character and makes it harder to use her in a story about the relative merits of the Usurpation.

 

[Aaron Peori]

My read on it was that she recognized that it was distracting her too much from what she needed to do, and she needed to cast it aside if she was gonna accomplish greater things, so she chose to let her love of him go.

Click to shrink...

Also, you know, Chejop Kejak murdered her previous incarnation in cold blood just before the Usurpation to prevent him from opposing it and then tracked down his reincarnation and used mind control Charms to turn her into his obedient fuck slave and second in command and when she learned this she got kind of pissed.

That might have had something to do with it.

 

[Kaiya]

Also, you know, Chejop Kejak murdered her previous incarnation in cold blood just before the Usurpation to prevent him from opposing it and then tracked down his reincarnation and used mind control Charms to turn her into his obedient fuck slave and second in command and when she learned this she got kind of pissed.

That might have had something to do with it.

Click to shrink...

...really? Really, Exalted? Which book was this?

 

[notthepenguins]

Also, you know, Chejop Kejak murdered her previous incarnation in cold blood just before the Usurpation to prevent him from opposing it and then tracked down his reincarnation and used mind control Charms to turn her into his obedient fuck slave and second in command and when she learned this she got kind of pissed.

That might have had something to do with it.

Click to shrink...

...really? Really, Exalted? Which book was this?

Click to shrink...

The whole mind control stuff is not, to my knowledge, true. Can you cite that? Cause while Kejak is an asshole, it's not that kind of asshole.

 

[horngeek]

Also, you know, Chejop Kejak murdered her previous incarnation in cold blood just before the Usurpation to prevent him from opposing it and then tracked down his reincarnation and used mind control Charms to turn her into his obedient fuck slave and second in command and when she learned this she got kind of pissed.

That might have had something to do with it.

Click to shrink...

That's... not how the books describe it IIRC. If you've got a cite, I'd really like to hear it, although I can't check for myself right now.

 

[Kaiya]

The whole mind control stuff is not, to my knowledge, true. Can you cite that? Cause while Kejak is an asshole, it's not that kind of asshole.

Click to shrink...

I can totally believe it was printed, but yeah, I'd like a source. Some of the Exalted books got really screwed up, though. I don't doubt that someone might've put that in, thinking it was super edgy and mature.

/me glares at Aspect Book Wood and Compass: Underworld.

 

[Aaron Peori]

...really? Really, Exalted? Which book was this?

Click to shrink...

Manual of Exalted power Sidereals page 24

Article:

The first murders were of Sidereals who could not bend their will to the majority. Several Seers - including Tammuz Ushun - sought to flee what they saw as the Five-Score Felloweship own descent into madness and warn the Solar Exalted. None managed to do so.

page 40

Article:

Dreams troubled Ayesha Ura: dreams of the Great Prophecy, of the great arguments with the man who was now her lover, of the flight to warn the Solar Deliberative of what the Bronze Faction intended and the Dragon-Blooded cutting her down before she could speak. She often awoke in bed next to Kejak and simply stared at him, trying to overcome the hate she felt.

Eventually Kejak forces her to learn Celestial Circle Sorcery and at that point she throws off any lingering loyalty to him because Fuck Him.

 

[Chehrazad]

I don't see any "used magic to make her his loyal fuck slave" in those Peori.

 

[Roadie]

I don't see any "used magic to make her his loyal fuck slave" in those Peori.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, those quotes do suggest "deceptive jerkface", but not mind control.

 

[Kaiya]

It suggests that she's remembering her past life more than anything, I think...?

 

[horngeek]

Manual of Exalted power Sidereals page 24

Article:

The first murders were of Sidereals who could not bend their will to the majority. Several Seers - including Tammuz Ushun - sought to flee what they saw as the Five-Score Felloweship own descent into madness and warn the Solar Exalted. None managed to do so.

page 40

Article:

Dreams troubled Ayesha Ura: dreams of the Great Prophecy, of the great arguments with the man who was now her lover, of the flight to warn the Solar Deliberative of what the Bronze Faction intended and the Dragon-Blooded cutting her down before she could speak. She often awoke in bed next to Kejak and simply stared at him, trying to overcome the hate she felt.

Eventually Kejak forces her to learn Celestial Circle Sorcery and at that point she throws off any lingering loyalty to him because Fuck Him.

Click to shrink...

There's no mind control mentioned there.

 

[Aaron Peori]

I don't see any "used magic to make her his loyal fuck slave" in those Peori.

Click to shrink...

It's never explicitly pointed out he did it with magic BUT:

"Of course it was years before Ayesha knew about this because the Chosen of the Maidens took her fromm her family when she was nine months old. Raised in Heaven and eventually Exalted as a Chosen of Journeys, Ayesha learned the traditions and causes of the Bronze Faction from the time she could talk. She quickly gained the notice of Chejop Kejak, who first became her mentor than her lover."

So Chejop kills her previous incarnation. Kidnaps her when she's nine months old, brainwashes her from the moment she can speak, quickly takes over her personal tutelage and then seduces her.

Whether he used Charms or just, you know, his insane Elder Dicepools and the fact he was her superior to try and force her to be his little Girl Friday is kind of beside the point. Considering Charms are like natural skill to Exalts, I see no reason for him not to have abused them.

 

[Ct613hulu]

Article:

Dreams troubled Ayesha Ura: dreams of the Great Prophecy, of the great arguments with the man who was now her lover, of the flight to warn the Solar Deliberative of what the Bronze Faction intended and the Dragon-Blooded cutting her down before she could speak. She often awoke in bed next to Kejak and simply stared at him, trying to overcome the hate she felt.

Eventually Kejak forces her to learn Celestial Circle Sorcery and at that point she throws off any lingering loyalty to him because Fuck Him.

Click to shrink...

I find this whole idea to be incredibly frustrating. Why can't the strong female leader of the Gold Faction simply be motivated by her perspective on the necessity and morality of the Usurpation rather than her failed relationship with a man? This seems like something that diminishes the character and her role as the champion of the Sidreals who oppose the Bronze Faction.

 

[Chehrazad]

I don't think it fits with Chejop Kejak as written.

Here we have a person, whose entire Motivation, his entire life's work is "Justify the sacrifices of the past."

Brainwashing someone to be his love slave doesn't exactly fit with that.

Also: You can like, derive any amount of arbitrary information from a text by "reading between the lines".

 

[Sanctaphrax]

The whole "banging your student" thing is morally dubious by modern standards. I think modern standards are correct in this case. And I can see why Aaron would object to the Sidereals "recruiting" babies.

But to describe the situation as Chejop magically brainwashing Ayesha into a sex slave is so misleading that it's almost offensive.

I'd expect to average Sidereal romance to be almost as messed up, given the circumstances of Sidereal life.

PS: Can someone pass my congratulations on to Xerxes, for finishing his read-through on the Onyx Path forum?

 

[Aaron Peori]

I find this whole idea to be incredibly frustrating. Why can't the strong female leader of the Gold Faction simply be motivated by her perspective on the necessity and morality of the Usurpation rather than her failed relationship with a man? This seems like something that diminishes the character and her role as the champion of the Sidreals who oppose the Bronze Faction.

Click to shrink...

I think it was supposed to be more of a point that Chejop Kejak is a hypocritical asshole than it was anything about Ayesha. He kidnaps and brainwashes her because it makes him feel better about himself.

I don't think it fits with Chejop Kejak as written.

Here we have a person, whose entire Motivation, his entire life's work is "Justify the sacrifices of the past."

Brainwashing someone to be his love slave doesn't exactly fit with that.

Also: You can like, derive any amount of arbitrary information from a text by "reading between the lines".

Click to shrink...

Chejop Kejak is Not A Nice Person. I don't think "Kidnaps nine month old, brainwashes her for her entire life, quickly becomes her mentor after she Exalts (note Sidereals tend to Exalt in the teens) and then seduces her" is reading between the lines to make him into kind of a scumbag.

Was Chejop Kejak potentially justified in the Usurpation? Maybe. Even probably.

Is he a nice person now? No, definitely not. Just like the Empress if he ever had good intentions a long time of being the ultimate power has drained most of what was ever good from him. I can totally see him doing exactly this (and more) to justify his own self-worth. After all, if Tammiz Ushun's reincarnation agrees with himm (after being brainwashed and seduced) he was totally right all along!

It even makes sense why he forced her to go to Celestial Circle even though she didn't want to. He was testing her loyalty. She just decided to tell him to get bent because he pushed her too far.

 

[Chehrazad]

Is he a nice person now? No, definitely not. Just like the Empress if he ever had good intentions a long time of being the ultimate power has drained most of what was ever good from him. I can totally see him doing exactly this (and more) to justify his own self-worth. After all, if Tammiz Ushun's reincarnation agrees with himm (after being brainwashed and seduced) he was totally right all along!

Click to shrink...

Hmm, I'm not quite sure if I agree, though we agree on the fact that he's not a nice person.

I see him as a person, so ultimately focused on doing what is "right" and justifying the sacrifices that he made because he could only see them as the way forward that he has basically become an embodiment of the sunk cost fallacy, a person so dedicated to the justification of his sacrifice that he is no longer able to see that the return of the Solars might actually be a good thing.

I see his relationship to Ayesha Ura similarily to your view of it, but in a different light. Instead of "if Tammiz Ushun agrees with me now I'll have been right all along!", I see it more as a desperate attempt at reconnecting to his humanity, and a way of essentially making up to himself for what he did back then. A sort of apology if you will.

But, I can definitely see the appeal of your view, it drives the whole "not a nice person" in very efficiently.

PS: Can someone pass my congratulations on to Xerxes, for finishing his read-through on the Onyx Path forum?

Click to shrink...

I'll do it.

EDIT: The deed has been done.

 

[notanautomaton]

So, question. Should a character have their full complement of Attribute and Ability dots upon Exalting, or is it a good idea for them to gain dots due to the Exaltation. Like, could an average farmboy get a Lunar Exaltation and suddenly be super swole, or does this damage some theme or another?

 

[Darmani]

I find this whole idea to be incredibly frustrating. Why can't the strong female leader of the Gold Faction simply be motivated by her perspective on the necessity and morality of the Usurpation rather than her failed relationship with a man? This seems like something that diminishes the character and her role as the champion of the Sidreals who oppose the Bronze Faction.

Click to shrink...

Because Exalted is a soap opera at the heart of it all. There needs to be a powerful emotional connection between all foes and EVERYONE is fucking each other. Also it adds just that little bit of actual abuse by the Bronze as the very metaphysics of the setting more or less make them critical and neccessary more than the gods they ostensibly serve showing they've gone this abusive to the head being able to do this to an estwhile member means they aren't the neutral academics trying to save the venal superstitious with the limited tools nature has graced them with.

 

[DayDreamer]

So, question. Should a character have their full complement of Attribute and Ability dots upon Exalting, or is it a good idea for them to gain dots due to the Exaltation. Like, could an average farmboy get a Lunar Exaltation and suddenly be super swole, or does this damage some theme or another?

Click to shrink...

It should depend on the individual, and possibly the circumstances of the Exaltation. Farmboy Lunar who Exalts for resisting ten days of the Realm's torture should totally be able to be Strength 5/Athletics 5 off the bat, rip their chains off and then stomp over the entire compound. Farmboy Lunar who Exalts while dreaming (he had a super awesome dream) should have the option of having their character gradually bulk up over the course of months.

 

[Darmani]

Hmm, I'm not quite sure if I agree, though we agree on the fact that he's not a nice person.

I see him as a person, so ultimately focused on doing what is "right" and justifying the sacrifices that he made because he could only see them as the way forward that he has basically become an embodiment of the sunk cost fallacy, a person so dedicated to the justification of his sacrifice that he is no longer able to see that the return of the Solars might actually be a good thing.

I see his relationship to Ayesha Ura similarily to your view of it, but in a different light. Instead of "if Tammiz Ushun agrees with me now I'll have been right all along!", I see it more as a desperate attempt at reconnecting to his humanity, and a way of essentially making up to himself for what he did back then. A sort of apology if you will.

But, I can definitely see the appeal of your view, it drives the whole "not a nice person" in very efficiently.



I'll do it.

EDIT: The deed has been done.

Click to shrink...

What is it with villains being walking idealogical pure avatars and not people. One of the key lessons of exalted NO ONE IS LIKE THAT. The Titans and Gods are motivated by who gets to sit in the pleasure palace with the Crack-Box 364U Cancer and justified everything about that. The Solars figured they were so powerful every whim was holy and thus indulged in very flawed behavior when they could see each other going bananas and refused advice. Light many greats who have a hard time moving beyond their flaws because they aren't connected to basic acceptance or survival.

The Sidereals Know Best and HATE ceding control like many introverted super specialized academics and spies. And a so manipulative they stop being able to tolerate other people as fools. The Lunars are abused turned abuser turned those idiots who talk or live throwback lifestyles that make no sense to indulge in all the petty venality.

Kejak has a point. EVERYONE has a point. but he isn't just a guy who is the embodiment of the Bronze ideology. He's also a controlling knowitall who controls by power, lies, corruptiong, magic, and abuse and views himself as best and the rest as children. The man's ego is MASSIVE in every write-up its just he's not the typical blind idiot that's paired with.