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General Exalted Thread

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Sanctaphrax said:
Sure they can. Alexander the Great's empire imploded way faster and harder than the Realm when he died. The Realm has had way more time to strengthen itself than his empire did, but it also had the same ruler for seven hundred years. If anything, I'd expect her to be more of a lynchpin than Alexander was.



I don't think so. She can lose some battles, make concessions, run into financial problems...as long as she stays on the throne for multiple centuries and keeps Sidereal backing, she'll end up with a ridiculous level of authority.



Pretty sure you mean this post from EarthScorpion.

If that's Solar-y, then ES actually made her more Solar.

I don't really see that kind of attitude as a Solar thing though.
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Hrm, not having a dog in this race, I think that one interesting way to portray things is Mistborn style. One of the implications I loved in the first book of that series, just stated offhand, is that the Lord Ruler has actually experimented with different (probably all oppressive) government types. That the current style, which I think involved large landholding nobles and etc, is just the most recent permutation of his rule, in which the thing held in common is, well, him.

So if she's ruled seven-hundred years, for all we know historians divide the Imperial government into 'periods' as institutions she set up in the first years of her reign outlive their use and are destroyed by her later in her reign because she lives long enough that she can tinker if she wants, as long as the end result still has her at the top.
 
Omicron said:
@Fenrir555 is wrong, so what? I'm not particularly interested in which specific position you're arguing against, "The Empress is written as a Solar ololol" is still a stupid argument, and it's still a lead-in for @EarthScorpion to explain why his custom setting is objectively better and makes more sense than canon, and to receive his 517th round of congratulatory backpat.
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So your defense of your post is that it wasn't a mistake, but that you were intentionally debating in bad faith? That you wanted to make a point, so you made a strawman to help make it stronger?

How does that make you or your point look better?
 
Sanctaphrax said:
I don't think so. She can lose some battles, make concessions, run into financial problems...as long as she stays on the throne for multiple centuries and keeps Sidereal backing, she'll end up with a ridiculous level of authority.
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Basically, I think the essential objection here to the "Empress has set the Realm up to fall apart without her" issue is summarised thusly:

a) Is there an adequate explanation for why tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded in the Realm have been totally fine, for centuries, with the fact that if the Empress is ever assassinated or when she dies of old age their world-spanning superpower will promptly implode within a decade?

b) If not, is there an adequate explanation as to how tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded who are also Exalted with Excellencies and similar dicepools for political savviness have failed to notice this fact for centuries or, having noticed, have told nobody and failed to spread the information far and wide?

c) If the answer is "because Sidereals", is there an adequate justification for why a group of Celestial Exalts who have as their primary interest the safeguarding of Creation are not only totally fine with their main tool for doing so imploding should a single Dragonblood die of old age or be assassinated, but are in fact actively spending considerable effort supporting this state of affairs to the detriment of other tasks?

d) If other Dragonblooded have noticed and have spread the information and haven't been silenced by Sidereal death squads, how the fuck has the Empress managed to cling to power without being forced to bomb most of the Blessed Isle to rubble with the Realm Defence Grid, given that she is only Empress so long as the tens of thousands of Realm Dragonblooded actually do what she says, instead of - for instance - ganking her and setting up a ruling Deliberative?
 
Aleph said:
Basically, I think the essential objection here to the "Empress has set the Realm up to fall apart without her" issue is summarised thusly:

a) Is there an adequate explanation for why tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded in the Realm have been totally fine, for centuries, with the fact that if the Empress is ever assassinated or when she dies of old age their world-spanning superpower will promptly implode within a decade?

b) If not, is there an adequate explanation as to how tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded who are also Exalted with Excellencies and similar dicepools for political savviness have failed to notice this fact for centuries or, having noticed, have told nobody and failed to spread the information far and wide?
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Don't forget that the manner in which it's set up this way deliberately limits the power of any other person or organization in the Realm. It's not Realm patriots that should have a problem. It's anyone interested in a institution's power, or their own houses power.
 
Broken quote box there, @Cosar. And I'm assuming most Realm Dragonblooded are a mix of both - sincere belief in the Realm while also wanting to advance their own and their House's position in it.
 
Personally, in terms of the whole "Realm is collapsing because Empress went bye-bye" thing, I actually sorta justify it from a magical standpoint.

Way back when the Balorian Crusade were marching and shit was going south for everyone, the Sidereals were mentioned to have tied the threads of fate around the plucky band of Dragonblooded that entered the Realm Defense Grid. Of them, the Empress was the one who survived and attunted to it.

Fate itself was bent to give them the chance they needed in order to save Creation.

In this view, the Empress is a sort of lynchpin of a wide swath of the Loom of Fate. It was much like the breaking of the Mask. Major league dickery with the Loom with long reaching consequences that cannot be casually undone and that was really necessary at the time. It might also serve to explain why she's lived so long. The Loom itself was sustaining her.

With The Empress gone, things are unraveling and collapsing.
 
The Laurent said:
Hrm, not having a dog in this race, I think that one interesting way to portray things is Mistborn style. One of the implications I loved in the first book of that series, just stated offhand, is that the Lord Ruler has actually experimented with different (probably all oppressive) government types. That the current style, which I think involved large landholding nobles and etc, is just the most recent permutation of his rule, in which the thing held in common is, well, him.

So if she's ruled seven-hundred years, for all we know historians divide the Imperial government into 'periods' as institutions she set up in the first years of her reign outlive their use and are destroyed by her later in her reign because she lives long enough that she can tinker if she wants, as long as the end result still has her at the top.
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Well, the Lord Ruler could afford to do that because he was an invincible demigod who could have wiped out half his population if he'd wanted to. So if he felt like it he could decide "we're a constitutional monarchy now, I'll pretend to humour a Parliament to see if it makes things run smoother," and people would have to comply overnight. The Empress doesn't have quite the same power.

That said, I do find the idea of "institutional eras" of the Realm determined by important legislative changes introduced by the Empress to be an interesting one.


Cosar said:
So your defense of your post is that it wasn't a mistake, but that you were intentionally debating in bad faith? That you wanted to make a point, so you made a strawman to help make it stronger?

How does that make you or your point look better?
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No, and I am confused as to how you would read my post this way.
 
Aleph said:
Basically, I think the essential objection here to the "Empress has set the Realm up to fall apart without her" issue is summarised thusly:

a) Is there an adequate explanation for why tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded in the Realm have been totally fine, for centuries, with the fact that if the Empress is ever assassinated or when she dies of old age their world-spanning superpower will promptly implode within a decade?

b) If not, is there an adequate explanation as to how tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded who are also Exalted with Excellencies and similar dicepools for political savviness have failed to notice this fact for centuries or, having noticed, have told nobody and failed to spread the information far and wide?

c) If the answer is "because Sidereals", is there an adequate justification for why a group of Celestial Exalts who have as their primary interest the safeguarding of Creation are not only totally fine with their main tool for doing so imploding should a single Dragonblood die of old age or be assassinated, but are in fact actively spending considerable effort supporting this state of affairs to the detriment of other tasks?

d) If other Dragonblooded have noticed and have spread the information and haven't been silenced by Sidereal death squads, how the fuck has the Empress managed to cling to power without being forced to bomb most of the Blessed Isle to rubble with the Realm Defence Grid, given that she is only Empress so long as the tens of thousands of Realm Dragonblooded actually do what she says, instead of - for instance - ganking her and setting up a ruling Deliberative?
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I expect it was widely known that her death would be catastrophic. Not sure why you'd expect that to make her people want her dead - seems to me it should do the opposite.

Chances are, there were times when the Realm and the Sidereals were better prepared for her death. But as is often the case, the catastrophe came at a very inconvenient time.
 
Omicron said:
Well, the Lord Ruler could afford to do that because he was an invincible demigod who could have wiped out half his population if he'd wanted to. So if he felt like it he could decide "we're a constitutional monarchy now, I'll pretend to humour a Parliament to see if it makes things run smoother," and people would have to comply overnight. The Empress doesn't have quite the same power.

That said, I do find the idea of "institutional eras" of the Realm determined by important legislative changes introduced by the Empress to be an interesting one.



No, and I am confused as to how you would read my post this way.
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Yeah. I mean, maybe she couldn't experiment quite as much, but she could try more or less decentralization, or establish an institution and when it started to turn sour, get rid of it. I mean, it'd be interesting if there was a sort of swinging movement in how centralized the Empire is that depended in part on her overall plans. More centralization early on as it is expanding, then decentralization to try to spread out the power to make it harder for any one group to gather up the reins, and then, maybe, centralization of power as part of a planned, like, redistricting/realignment of factions that never got completed because she died while she was holding onto more power than she was probably planning on keeping for the long-term.

I mean, it's possible. In real life people get cut off mid-plan by death, and it'd be the last thing an immortal empress would really expect.
 
The Laurent said:
Yeah. I mean, maybe she couldn't experiment quite as much, but she could try more or less decentralization, or establish an institution and when it started to turn sour, get rid of it. I mean, it'd be interesting if there was a sort of swinging movement in how centralized the Empire is that depended in part on her overall plans. More centralization early on as it is expanding, then decentralization to try to spread out the power to make it harder for any one group to gather up the reins, and then, maybe, centralization of power as part of a planned, like, redistricting/realignment of factions that never got completed because she died while she was holding onto more power than she was probably planning on keeping for the long-term.

I mean, it's possible. In real life people get cut off mid-plan by death, and it'd be the last thing an immortal empress would really expect.
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It's worth noting, too, that the Empress is not necessarily dead. She has vanished (she's vanished before, as well, though never for as long), but that leaves a number of options open that could tie in with - or otherwise conflict with - her plans.
 
Sanctaphrax said:
Pretty sure you mean this post from EarthScorpion.

If that's Solar-y, then ES actually made her more Solar.

I don't really see that kind of attitude as a Solar thing though.
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Oooh, thanks, that's the one. Ha, I remember liking the writing, so I'm not super surprised.

I guess it boils down to heroics to me. Any Exalt can Do-What's-Right, but trying to do the impossible because you have to to win looks sort of Solar to me, at least when its on the scale of ruling the world. Like, pushing to be the best because YOU winning is RIGHT NOW is super important b/c the issue is a matter of life and death for the world? Trying to pull that shit is the kind of thing that could get a mortal to Exalt as a Solar, right? If the Empress had been an enlightened mortal when she and her comrades broke into the Imperial Manse and activated it to save Creation, I'm pretty sure that act would have gotten her to Exalt as a Solar on the spot, if any of the Exaltations been available at the time.
Maybe I'm just not looking at the dickish stuff the Empress does closely enough.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you go by the in-universe pro-Empress/Realm propaganda, the Empress might as well BE a Solar. She's depicted as being the best thing ever for Creation, the best example of the truth of the Immaculate Philosophy and supremacy of the Dragons, toted as being the only one who could drive back the Balorian Crusade, etc etc.

Nervaqus987 said:
Way back when the Balorian Crusade were marching and shit was going south for everyone, the Sidereals were mentioned to have tied the threads of fate around the plucky band of Dragonblooded that entered the Realm Defense Grid. Of them, the Empress was the one who survived and attunted to it.
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Dang, where was that mentioned?

notthepenguins said:
It's worth noting, too, that the Empress is not necessarily dead. She has vanished (she's vanished before, as well, though never for as long), but that leaves a number of options open that could tie in with - or otherwise conflict with - her plans.
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Other than RotSE's going through the "married The Ebon Dragon" option, were there any alternatives that got explored decently in the books, or was it always left vague until the end of 2nd edition?

What are some good Empress' Disappearance scenarios from games people played? I bet people have some great ones.
 
RemoteScholar said:
Other than RotSE's going through the "married The Ebon Dragon" option, were there any alternatives that got explored decently in the books, or was it always left vague until the end of 2nd edition?

What are some good Empress' Disappearance scenarios from games people played? I bet people have some great ones.
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I seem to remember one happened-in-a-game idea that got brought up on the OPP forums at some point was one where at the end of each Age, a Maiden died/vanished/something and needed to be replaced, and she became the new Mars.

As far as explored alternatives, not really. It was left really vague and then lol RotSE.
 
Personally I assumed it isn't falling apart because the empress is gone so much as there isn't a large enough unifying factor.

Whether that be a leader or an outside threat forcing them to band together right now.

This way the realm being reliant on her is less weird and more a realpolitik scenario where the immortal God empress was just hadn't found a better solution.
 
Dream Logic said:
Personally I assumed it isn't falling apart because the empress is gone so much as there isn't a large enough unifying factor.

Whether that be a leader or an outside threat forcing them to band together right now.

This way the realm being reliant on her is less weird and more a realpolitik scenario where the immortal God empress was just hadn't found a better solution.
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That can work. You can also do a situation where it's more of a standard succession crisis. Those happened pretty regularly, even in places with established successions. That doesn't require the Realm to be this weird super-absolute monarchy where everything relied on one person.
 
Cosar said:
You said that you don't care what the argument is, you're just attributing a certain argument to him and then responding to that. That's the definition of a strawman argument. How are you confused that people would take you at your word?
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Dial back the outrage about ten notches, man. All @Omicron said was that he was using the post as a jumping off point to what he wanted to discuss.
 
Aleph said:
Basically, I think the essential objection here to the "Empress has set the Realm up to fall apart without her" issue is summarised thusly:

a) Is there an adequate explanation for why tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded in the Realm have been totally fine, for centuries, with the fact that if the Empress is ever assassinated or when she dies of old age their world-spanning superpower will promptly implode within a decade?

b) If not, is there an adequate explanation as to how tens of thousands of other politically active Dragonblooded who are also Exalted with Excellencies and similar dicepools for political savviness have failed to notice this fact for centuries or, having noticed, have told nobody and failed to spread the information far and wide?

c) If the answer is "because Sidereals", is there an adequate justification for why a group of Celestial Exalts who have as their primary interest the safeguarding of Creation are not only totally fine with their main tool for doing so imploding should a single Dragonblood die of old age or be assassinated, but are in fact actively spending considerable effort supporting this state of affairs to the detriment of other tasks?

d) If other Dragonblooded have noticed and have spread the information and haven't been silenced by Sidereal death squads, how the fuck has the Empress managed to cling to power without being forced to bomb most of the Blessed Isle to rubble with the Realm Defence Grid, given that she is only Empress so long as the tens of thousands of Realm Dragonblooded actually do what she says, instead of - for instance - ganking her and setting up a ruling Deliberative?
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Every time I use this if-then-if-not-theb forking argument structure in the gundam thread everyone looks at me like i be crazy and say they can't understand.

How do you make it work? Please teach me Aleph-sensei.

...

that cape thing makes me want to do a hawaii-based exalted thing.
 
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you mean like the 80's beach shard? Where TUS is head life guard, the Solars are returning to become kings of the beach, the Realm is an adjourning hotel...
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
Reminding me yet again, why i cringe every time someone tries to explain Exalted in terms of Wuxia. While I like exalted martial arts, Wuxia has never been an appeal for me. I showed up for the animism and embodied metaphors and celestial bureaucracy.
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Going back a few pages for this, but yeah. Part of this is why I personally have such an adverse reaction to setting material which has no higher-order message or meaning behind it save aping the trappings of "being what Exalted is," and serves only the purpose of rote gap-filling rather than informing potential players about crazy shit they can then take away and read more about to make their games even Crazier. When the question of "why was this included?" simply results in "we wanted to establish a bad guy/fix a mechanics issue/write a Moorcock pastiche/reference a thing I like/make a set piece" it simply comes across as "oh, you're just writing an RPG then, I guess."

Like, an enormous element of how Autochthonia is presented relies on the fact it is a (often hamfisted) metaphor for Organized Religion in addition to being industrial dystopia, even down to using specific terminology like ministers, lectors, sodalities and clerics. Trying to recontextualize everything away from that as simply "awesome robot kung-fu communist adventures" and leaving the religious-theming as just a skin saps a lot of the energy and ambition out of the concept, and you're stuck with doing what 2e did, rehashing all the memes and "common knowledge" without actually improving or fleshing out the material, just making More of it.

Somewhere along the line people started taking Exalted as its own self-contained genre, and stopped trying to look at it as a sum of meaningful messages and themes to be added onto, rather than a list of internal justifications for tropes and pop culture references.
 
Bel said:
you mean like the 80's beach shard? Where TUS is head life guard, the Solars are returning to become kings of the beach, the Realm is an adjourning hotel...
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No I mean like Chief Kamehameha sacrificing people to the war god he is high priest of for blessings to conquer his neighbors, while trying to cage weapons out of the realm-flagged vessel that just "rediscovered" the island chain.

But tell me more about this beach shard.
 
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