You use a magic spell to get yourself to the airport quickly, saying you do it by summoning a taxi. Do you have to:
1. Use a spell with the effect "I get to the airport?" (RBD)
2. Create a taxi out of thin air, driver included, to do it? (PBD)
If you want to hit someone without displaying overt magic and have them run over by a car, is it Forces (because it governs the laws of kinetic impact through which the damage is delivered), or Fate (because you are dealing the damage by making something coincidentally happen at the most convenient time)?
 
Oh, right. Yes, it lets you say to someone "I will not harm a hair on your head" and then they know you're being sincere about it. It's not only a vow, it's a statement about the world.

I mean, it doesn't stop you from stabbing them in the gut, or indeed doing anything to them that doesn't harm the hair on their head, but you weren't lying about that!
Amusingly, that is basically precisely what Red Truth is.

(Gold is "the above, except you're saying this within your own Mythos.")

This is, in fact, the old RBD vs PBD of oMage, back in a new form. VEE is a RBD because when you use the charm, it has a given effect regardless of route. A bound demon is a RBD, because it's process based, not results based. Just because you bound the demon doesn't mean you get the results you want, unless your sole goal was to bind Ligier to prove that you could.
I believe you mean PBD the second time, unless I'm very confused.
 
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If you want to hit someone without displaying overt magic and have them run over by a car, is it Forces (because it governs the laws of kinetic impact through which the damage is delivered), or Fate (because you are dealing the damage by making something coincidentally happen at the most convenient time)?
It feels logically like it's the second.
 
Amusingly, that is basically precisely what Red Truth is.

(Gold is "the above, except you're saying this within your own Mythos.")
Golden Truth would be a statement that anyone listening would be forced to recognize as true, and so they cannot act against it. You subject others to the same restrictions of Ancient and Firstborn. Should be pretty neat against raksha.
 
Golden Truth would be a statement that anyone listening would be forced to recognize as true, and so they cannot act against it. You subject others to the same restrictions of Ancient and Firstborn. Should be pretty neat against raksha.
Ennnh... That's not really how the Golden works in Umineko. But that's a topic for a different thread. (Go over to the Umineko thread, it hasn't even broken one page yet! T.T)
 
I found an RBD/PBD discussion that helped my understanding of terms after a bit of search here on an rpg.net thread. Although it's in a oMage discussion, it helped me understand better. Is there a helpful list/index of metagaming White Wolf/Onyx Path terms somewhere?

Also, for Transcendent Desert Creature: Are there in-Creation areas where this would charm would qualify, or is it only for Yozi-themed desecrated sacred areas and Malfeas/Wyld desolation zones?
 
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Also, for Transcendent Desert Creature: Are there in-Creation areas where this would charm would qualify, or is it only for Yozi-themed desecrated sacred areas and Malfeas/Wyld desolation zones?
"Many Charms known to Cecelyne can only be activated in a place of desolation. Any climate or environment inhospitable to most life qualifies, meaning barren glaciers and seas too salty for any fish qualify just as much as sandy deserts or rocky wastes. A good rule of thumb is that any place that would require a difficulty 4+ roll to forage within counts (see Exalted, p. 139). As always, the Storyteller remains final arbiter. Of particular note, the realm of Malfeas and shadowlands always qualify, while the Underworld does not. Such desolation transcends Cecelyne's understanding as a living Yozi."

The desert. The arctic. The dead sea. Industrial wastelands. The tops of mountains. Outer space.
 
Also, for Transcendent Desert Creature: Are there in-Creation areas where this would charm would qualify, or is it only for Yozi-themed desecrated sacred areas and Malfeas/Wyld desolation zones?

I've even heard that it can trigger in more metaphorically desolate inhabited cities that are rife with poverty, crime, corruption, people living in social isolation, and oppression and propaganda crushing the life from any creative expression, intellectual thoughts and spirituality.
 
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I've even heard that it can trigger in more metaphorically desolate inhabited cities that are rife with poverty, crime, corruption, people living in social isolation, and oppression and propaganda crushing the life from any creative expression, intellectual thoughts and spirituality.
It requires an expansion, but yes.

Edit: Friggin' Sidereals.
 
This only works if the thing you can do doesn't cause setting problems on the scale of being able to repeatedly spam the charm to give yourself control over the Scarlet Realm, or spawn First Age magitech fabricator-manses out of thin air, or whatever other crazy shit "give yourself any background out of nowhere" lets you do.
Just to be clear, you are against Wyld Shaping Technique a 1e corebook original?
 
Just to be clear, you are against Wyld Shaping Technique a 1e corebook original?

Yes. For blatantly obvious reasons, the first and most important being that the game system should not incentivise not interacting with the game setting.

If you want a First Age fabricator-manse, the correct way to do it (from a game developer POV) is to go and conquer one. If you do not need to do this and can simply sit in the wyld making shit out of thin air, there is no game.
 
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Yes. For blatantly obvious reasons, the first and most important being that the game system should not incentivise not interacting with the game setting.

If you want a First Age fabricator-manse, the correct way to do it (from a game developer POV) is to go and conquer one. If you do not need to do this and can simply sit in the wyld making shit out of thin air, there is no game.

Theres no game when dealing with the realm maybe.

Theres plenty of game when it comes to dealing with all the weird shit you find in the Wyld, especially when you've attracted all their attention.
 
Theres no game when dealing with the realm maybe.

Theres plenty of game when it comes to dealing with all the weird shit you find in the Wyld, especially when you've attracted all their attention.

Yes, more fairies which your automated First Age reality-engines destroy in their uncounted billions, joy. That's totally why we're playing Exalted, to rack up our fairy killcount with infinite artifacts we conjure ex nihilo.
 
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I think Wyld-Shaping what you need could be a fun experience if you run it like a timed survival game. Once you start Shaping, the locals immediately sense what you're doing and counterattack en masse. You and your circle have to hold out for X-hours until you finally solidify the area and all the enemies dissipate with a cathartic death rattle.

You can have a battle to the death on top of a shining dreamstuff ziggurat while the extensive mortal cohort you brought trades lives for minutes.
 
Yes. For blatantly obvious reasons, the first and most important being that the game system should not incentivise not interacting with the game setting.

If you want a First Age fabricator-manse, the correct way to do it (from a game developer POV) is to go and conquer one. If you do not need to do this and can simply sit in the wyld making shit out of thin air, there is no game.
I'm pretty certain that you aren't going to get a First Age fabricator-manse our of WST. At most you should get a demense that you could build one on and further uses of the charm getting you places to collect the raw resources needed to make one yourself. Also it will be in the back end of nowhere surrounded by pissed rakasha.
 
I'm pretty certain that you aren't going to get a First Age fabricator-manse our of WST. At most you should get a demense that you could build one on and further uses of the charm getting you places to collect the raw resources needed to make one yourself. Also it will be in the back end of nowhere surrounded by pissed rakasha.
The point is more that WST can act as a fabricator manse.
 
The point is more that WST can act as a fabricator manse.
To some extent that is the same answer though. WST gets you land with the attributes you want along with an optional population for it. It doesn't let you get high end goods premade. You might get a great resource rich area and demesne to work with as construction equipment but it won't let you bypass the need for craft dots.
 
To some extent that is the same answer though. WST gets you land with the attributes you want along with an optional population for it. It doesn't let you get high end goods premade. You might get a great resource rich area and demesne to work with as construction equipment but it won't let you bypass the need for craft dots.
Basically, it's an old argument topic that there's actually an essay on somewhere in this thread. The main thing is that one of the functions of WST is to give artifact ingredients potent enough that they count as artifacts themselves, meaning you can skip at least the months long process of making a two or three dot artifact just to later destroy it as a reagent for a five dot one. Unfortunately, the wording does not convey that intent, and simply says it can be used to make artifacts in a matter of hours. Going by RAW, with the most obvious interpretation, because every statement by the writers about what it's meant for is in feedback threads instead of the Corebook or the Scroll of Errata, is that it can let you make five dot artifacts all on it's own, within two or three days from the number of rolls generally needed. This is easily a match for a fabricator manse, and possibly two or three, and can be done without any infrastructure, any build up time, and with the safety of your personal defensive Charms, which can easily handle the Raksha.
 
Basically, it's an old argument topic that there's actually an essay on somewhere in this thread. The main thing is that one of the functions of WST is to give artifact ingredients potent enough that they count as artifacts themselves, meaning you can skip at least the months long process of making a two or three dot artifact just to later destroy it as a reagent for a five dot one. Unfortunately, the wording does not convey that intent, and simply says it can be used to make artifacts in a matter of hours. Going by RAW, with the most obvious interpretation, because every statement by the writers about what it's meant for is in feedback threads instead of the Corebook or the Scroll of Errata, is that it can let you make five dot artifacts all on it's own, within two or three days from the number of rolls generally needed. This is easily a match for a fabricator manse, and possibly two or three, and can be done without any infrastructure, any build up time, and with the safety of your personal defensive Charms, which can easily handle the Raksha.

That was my essay, and that's pretty much the size of it- you're supposed to use WST to create 1-4 dot 'non-functional' components, which take 10/30/60/100 successes on the int+lore WST roll respectively. You also are supposedly able to use WST as a 'workshop' to assemble final components, but that was poorly implied.

By 'non-functional' I mean they exist purely to fuel your artifice, they don't actually have to do anything on their own. (this is admittedly weak design on 2e's part).

a Factory Cathedral, assuming you can supply its upkeep, has the following benefits: It counts as an Ideal Workshop for the five Elemental Crafts, and Magitech, but not Genesis. (This is supposed to have a more qualitative effect than +4 dice, but everyone only remembers the +4 dice).

Then, it shortens the base craft interval by a set amount- I can't remember what its effect on mundane crafts is, but for Artifacts, it cuts the '1 season' roll down to one month before speeders like CNNT.
 
My opinion of WST is the same that all charms that create backgrounds points out of nothing; It doesn't exist.

(As opposed to things than upgrade or transform exiting backgrounds, those are perfectly fine).
 
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I have spent a lot of time criticising Exalted. Like. A lot of time. I'm actually kind of afraid to try and estimate how much. But while I've extensively hacked Kerisgame and spent long rants describing how certain parts of the setting are terrible and awful and no good, I haven't... okay, I guess that does technically count as "offering an alternative suggestion". But not in full.

So. How would I have written Exalted? From scratch?

I've put quite a bit of thought into this, and how - for example - I would deal with the way that some people love the complex in-depth mechanics of fights and other people want to skip them and get straight to the consequences. In general, there are two ways to resolve any roll; process-based determination (PBD) and results-based determination (RBD). Exalted uses a mix of the two. A navigation roll to find your way to a house in an unfamiliar city, for instance, is probably going to be RBD - make one roll against a set Difficulty, and if you pass it, you get there. However, the combat engines have always been very, very much oriented towards PBD; they're very granular and you resolve every action individually. Which takes ages.

As I said; some people love that and enjoy PBDing their way through fights. Other people dislike it and prefer to go "okay, a demonic assassin tried to kill me and failed" in four or five quick rolls before moving onto "so who sent them and why?" And naturally, in both cases, the players in question will be dissatisfied with a system that caters to the other.

My solution to this dilemma is to make the system modular. This also turns out to be an easy way to solve the fact that there is no existent governing system and not much in the way of social influence, too! Essentially, to use combat as an example; I'd write the corebook chock-full of simple RBD systems. As many as I could pack in, all designed to be done with an example action (and there would be lots of examples) in five rolls or so. It would be basic mechanics, an introduction to the system, an introduction to the setting, and lots of suggestions and "how to use" bits.

And then the other sourcebooks would plug into this core system based on what you wanted out of your game. Now, the corebook alone would be functional - and in fact it would be pretty good for a more narrative, rules-light game where the mechanics matter less than the story. You could sit down and play with just that, and have fun. But say you wanted more out of combat. Say you liked that RBD fighting where you roll out every thrust and parry and roleplay manoeuvring for position and dealing with range bands and cooperating with a group to dogpile a single opponent and all that jazz.

If that's what you want, you buy the combat sourcebook; Blades and Battles. The first half of this book contains a PBD system; a Cinematic Combat Engine that plugs into the Simple Combat Engine rules in the corebook and expands on them massively, probably in something similar to the basic 3e combat system. It would have Charms that interface with these expanded rules, suggestions on using them, etcetera. If your group wants to play a game whose focus is in the actual process of combat, you use that.

If you want to play a game whose focus is still on combat, but on the wider scale of warfare and military campaigns and so on, never fear! That's what the second half of the book is about. It has a Mass Combat Engine - again, one that plugs into the Simple Combat Engine of the corebook and expands on it. It gives you rules and fluff for why and how warfare happens, how to model troops and armies, special assets and sieges, morale and drill, etcetera. If you want to play a nation-state game where instead of swording things yourself you send or lead your armies to do it for you, this is what you use.

This idea of modular design based on game focus is the best solution I've been able to come up with. The players and ST collectively decide what they want to model in-depth, and what they want to just represent with a basic resolution mechanic to get onto the good stuff. If combat is largely incidental to the stuff they all want to do, they can use the corebook combat system but the in-depth project and governance mechanics in the respective sourcebooks. This essentially allows the system to be customised to suit the game - and since the plug-in sourcebooks are fairly thematically restricted and your combat mechanics are all in Blades and Battles, it makes it easier to cross-check for combinational hell. A lot of them would basically be split half and half between a character-scale PBD engine that expands on the RBD corebook rules and a "Magnitude" engine that gives rules for city- or nation-scale games.

The plug-in sourcebooks would have Charms for all splats, hopefully, so potential sourcebooks would be:

Corebook: Basic mechanics, simple Systems for everything, introduction to the setting. Solar simple charms too, since they're the default splat.
Leaders and Logistics: General Project mechanics and fluff for large-scale actions of any kind. A lot of other books would reference this one.
[Area books]: Cultural information fluff and plot hooks for different setting locations.
[Splat books]: Introduction to each splat; chargen, plot hooks, mechanics, suite of simple Charms.
Pacts and Politics: In-depth social influence mechanics, PR and propaganda, background sociology.
Blades and Battles: Cinematic and Mass Combat Engines. Fluff on setting up and running warfare.
Forges and Factories: Artifact crafting and mass production. Tool sophistication and infrastructure.
Monarchs and Merchants: Governing and trade and empire-building. Laws, diplomacy, Anno 1404 stuff.
Salt and Sorcery: Occult knowledge, thaumaturgy, Sorcery, example rotes/spells, Workings (Sorcerous Projects).
Gods and Monsters: Spirit mechanics, the differences between gods, elementals, ghosts, demons and raksha. The various realm-of-existence "area" books would go into more detail on these, but the basic spirit mechanics and the unique hooks about each type (like the "how did they die?" ghosts and "what tool are they?" demons) would be here.

There might be various other ones I haven't thought of here. Terrain and Travel, maybe, for a game about being Marco Polo or Francis Drake? Or Crops and Cattle for agriculture? They would all fit the alliterative naming scheme, naturally. You can't stop me doing that. In fact, no-one can stop me! Ahahahaa!

... shut up, Gods and Monsters doesn't count.
 
I don't disagree, but the real problem seems to be in actually writing those in-depth systems. It's not hard at all to just delete the combat system and write up a difficulty table (or just make it based on a single opposed roll, or whatever). It's much more difficult to write a good, fun, tactical combat engine (and easy to screw up).
 
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