My reasoning is that with the lack of damage from Light Weapons means that their damage output is wholly dependent on getting decent hits, but it's something to look out for. Thanks for pointing this out.

I'll probably make the Accuracy array +2 / +1 / 0 / -2 or make some changes to the weapon damage variable. Or some other arcane system I'll develop after some play testing.
Ah, this is something I can comment on.

You see, in Exalted's legacy system, while you will more often than not score a hit when swinging a weapon with equal stats in a white room scenario...
Actually, nevermind all that.

The important thing is, White Wolf loved threshold successes, so more Accuracy directly translates into more damage.
 
My reasoning is that with the lack of damage from Light Weapons means that their damage output is wholly dependent on getting decent hits, but it's something to look out for. Thanks for pointing this out.

I'll probably make the Accuracy array +2 / +1 / 0 / -2 or make some changes to the weapon damage variable. Or some other arcane system I'll develop after some play testing.
Except having More Attacks with high Accuracy outweighs base-damage any day of the week, because what Rate 2/3 grants is effectively a pseudo-reroll for every attack you are making, compared to the single-shot strikes of everything past Medium. Frequency-of-attacks is Absolutely a factor in these things, even without the use of Tick Speed compounding the issue.
 
Lore= Humanities (Geography, history, wharever).

Occult= Sciences (Mathematics, astrology, taumaturgy, etc).
This is the interpretation I keep encountering in this thread, but for me it seems to clash with the stuff that Lore actually does. I mean, do you really think that it takes humanities (Geography, history etc.) to program a computer or repair a particle accelerator? This is what Lore does, and it seems to be closer to sciences to me, while Occult, by contrast, seems to be more about, well, occultism, thaumatology, cults, spellcraft and the like.
Lore is the Humanities, but it is also the Sciences. It covers mathematics and indeed understanding every facet of the system of the world.

Occult is about magic and by extension spirits. Where Lore is largely theoretical, Occult is also very practical. It includes the perception and understanding of the supernatural, familiarity with the strange ways and powers of spirits, and potentially also magical aptitude.

Granted, this isn't very clear, specially given that Lore ended up with a lot of essence manipulation charms for some reason.
As one of the mundane uses for Lore was attuning to demenses, essence manipulation charms naturally fell under Lore. You'd also expect charms to reflect supernal scholarship, but apparently no one likes know-it-alls...
 
Lore is the Humanities, but it is also the Sciences. It covers mathematics and indeed understanding every facet of the system of the world.

Occult is about magic and by extension spirits. Where Lore is largely theoretical, Occult is also very practical. It includes the perception and understanding of the supernatural, familiarity with the strange ways and powers of spirits, and potentially also magical aptitude.

Occult covers astrology. Therefore, it also covers mathematics.

It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
 
Occult covers astrology. Therefore, it also covers mathematics.

It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
...I don't know how quite to phrase this, so I'm not going to bother worrying.

Exalted is a fantasy setting. The stars are not ever-distant suns, and are directly linked to the local workings of Fate.

There's more than just mathematics to it.
 
Exalted is a fantasy setting. The stars are not ever-distant suns, and are directly linked to the local workings of Fate.

There's more than just mathematics to it.

Look, for astrology you need star charts. The astrologers of Varang need to know how to calculate the position of the stars at the moment of birth at the very least least. (And indeed, they are so concerned for accurancy they even use clocks).

You aren't going to tell me you can do that without mathematics.
 
Last edited:
Look, for astrology you need star charts. The astrologers of Varang need to know how to calculate the position of the stars at the moment of birth at least. (And indeed, they are so concerned for accurancy they even use clocks).

You aren't going to tell me you can do that without mathematics.
Yes, you can. The time-addled recollections of men are nothing before the whispers of least gods, who are too pure and focused to forget anything that falls within their scope.

Question the spirit that carried the last ray of winter sunlight to the mother's door, the small god who fretted endlessly over the way the babe's wails drowned out the perfect chorus of the crickets outside. Coax the secrets of their birth from the groaning eaves of the monastery their parents sought shelter in.

The self-important scribblings of prayer cattle are nothing before the omnipresent gods.

EDIT: In retrospect, I should have put this down at the beginning - but yeah, I don't really care about @Broken25's argument. I heard "astrology has to be numbers", thought of a way to fluff it so it wasn't, and rolled with it.
 
Last edited:
Yes, you can. The time-addled recollections of men are nothing before the whispers of least gods, who are too pure and focused to forget anything that falls within their scope.

Question the spirit that carried the last ray of winter sunlight to the mother's door, the small god who fretted endlessly over the way the babe's wails drowned out the perfect chorus of the crickets outside. Coax the secrets of their birth from the groaning eaves of the monastery their parents sought shelter in.

The self-important scribblings of prayer cattle are nothing before the omnipresent gods.
This is:
a) boring
b) not how astrology has ever worked in history
c) not how astrology has ever worked in Exalted

I appreciate the tactic of throwing in a narrative you just made up out of wholecloth - god knows I've used it to confuse an argument more than once - but it's kind of transparent when anyone else actually knows what they're talking about. At most, you'll get "wow, that's not how it works but it's still kind of cool", and this is so un-Exalted that I can't even respond with that.



It's worth noting, for the purposes of this argument, that Occult and Lore have changed their definitions for 3e. This is part of a general shift in how Exalted treats the supernatural, where magic has become something that is not to be understood or built upon, but instead is an ineffable miracle distinct from any scientific, exploitable natural process.

Occult, for instance, went from "knowledge of and familiarity with all forms of magic, ranging from the Charms of the Exalted to the minor but ubiquitous workings of mortal thaumaturgy" to "an instinctive facility for dealing with Creation's mystical and otherworldly elements". It's no longer the knowledge of occultists and sages, but the "instinctive" ability of uneducated shamans and natural exorcists.

Thaumaturgy, too, has transformed from an "ubiquitous" array of magical processes employed by mortals into unique, inexplicable and unpredictable powers that randomly pop up in particular individuals around Creation and cannot be learned by anyone else.

While Occult's association with scientific disciplines was never concrete, it was certainly implied - not least because thaumaturgy included such "occult" processes as "combine carbon with iron to make steel" or "predict the weather" or "breed better animals over generations". If science and magic weren't one and the same, in 1e-2e, they certainly weren't distinguishable by the cultures of Creation. 3e very deliberately, comprehensively and quietly strips that aspect out, as part of its drive to add mystery to the setting.

As a result, Lore has gone from "knowledge of current events, history, geography and the customs of other lands, as well as the magical secrets of First Age technology" to "a character's understanding of the world, covering academic disciplines of history, mathematics, geography, literature, science, philosophy, and similar scholarly pursuits". It's worth pointing out that the example disciplines given here are identical to those given in 1e, except for the additions of mathematics and science. With Occult no longer even obliquely representing science, Lore has to take up the slack.
 
This is:
a) boring
b) not how astrology has ever worked in history
c) not how astrology has ever worked in Exalted

I appreciate the tactic of throwing in a narrative you just made up out of wholecloth - god knows I've used it to confuse an argument more than once - but it's kind of transparent when anyone else actually knows what they're talking about. At most, you'll get "wow, that's not how it works but it's still kind of cool", and this is so un-Exalted that I can't even respond with that.
I don't know about astrology, but it does seem to be the way science works in Exalted Creation. For instance, all those formulae and coefficients in how chemistry and physics work when modifying substances? Well, they're replaced by this in Creation:
Brickmaking said:
When a brickmaker
places his wares in the kiln, the least god of that block
of clay meets with the least god of the fi re. The fi re-
god sings the Song of Ardent Unity, infusing its heat
through all it touches. The clay-god responds with the
Mudra of Isolate Stability, asserting its intent not to be
consumed. Together, these divine procedures harden
the clay and its least god changes nature to match.
Clay becomes bricks.


Regarding the use of math in general, I'm wondering if perhaps it can be covered by more than one skill. For instance, in many WW games, Science covers hard sciences, while soft sciences are covered by Academics. And yet to study things like psychology, sociology or the like, you need statistics, and you can't have statistics without math. So perhaps some 'basic prerequisite knowledges' are assumed to be included in both Lore and Occult? Because really, it's unclear how one can operate and repair highly-technical First Age devices without that. Or how about Bureaucracy - can you really have high First Age Accounting 3 without at least a basic understanding of math (including either a concept of zero or an alternate notation that at least partially makes up for lacking a zero [like the Chinese/Japanese one]).
 
This is:
a) boring
b) not how astrology has ever worked in history
c) not how astrology has ever worked in Exalted
Doing complex math equations in an empty room, alone, and occasionally gesturing to your calculator so he can confirm a seemingly incongruous bit of your equation...

... Not boring.

I don't know where you're going with this.

Also, no it's not how astrology "works" in real life, because IRL astrology is basically an exercise in creative reinterpretation and self-delusion. I suppose if I was trying to make a legitimate point and not just ad-libbing flavor text because somebody's post gave me a snippet idea, I might have had reason to look up what the laws of astrology currently are. In fact, I'd better go back and edit that information into my original post.

Third - well, okay. You do have absolute seniority here, but I was making the basic extrapolation that if Solars can order around least gods, then Thaumaturges should be able to get them to talk about something they previously experienced, and talking up pieces of wood and scraps of light for tales of a man's past seems far more interesting as a means of describing a PC's dice results than "Okay, you successfully conjugate the logarithm of the 17th house of Mars. Your chosen target is therefore blah, blerg, & also bloop."

It's worth noting, for the purposes of this argument, that Occult and Lore have changed their definitions for 3e. This is part of a general shift in how Exalted treats the supernatural, where magic has become something that is not to be understood or built upon, but instead is an ineffable miracle distinct from any scientific, exploitable natural process.
Welp, I'm out then. 3E's particular brand of Deliria-esque woo-woo is the exact opposite of what I'm here for. Have fun.
 
Third - well, okay. You do have absolute seniority here, but I was making the basic extrapolation that if Solars can order around least gods, then Thaumaturges should be able to get them to talk about something they previously experienced, and talking up pieces of wood and scraps of light for tales of a man's past seems far more interesting as a means of describing a PC's dice results than "Okay, you successfully conjugate the logarithm of the 17th house of Mars. Your chosen target is therefore blah, blerg, & also bloop."

Least gods can't materialize, and you can't interact with them in any way without charms.

Not that it would be useful, mind, since they are barely sentient and can only talk about their domains.

In any case, astrology doesn't have anything to do with them.
 
Last edited:
Least gods can't materialize, and you can't interact with them in any way without charms.

Not that it would be useful, mind, since they are barely sentient and can only talk about their domains.
then Thaumaturges should be able to get them to talk about something they previously experienced, and talking up pieces of wood and scraps of light for tales of a man's past seems far more interesting as a means of describing a PC's dice results than "Okay, you successfully conjugate the logarithm of the 17th house of Mars. Your chosen target is therefore blah, blerg, & also bloop."
This is pretty much what Thaumaturgy is:

Thaumatrugy said:
Only gods can use the fundamental procedures
of thaumaturgy in their pure form. No one else re-
ally needs to. Mortals, however, can approximate the
songs, words, gestures and symbols used by the gods,
and combine them in novel ways. They can also re-
combine the physical substances of Creation and coax
their least gods to interact in unnatural ways. This is
mortal thaumaturgy.

Again, I do not know whether Astrology is always Thaumaturgy. IIRC it is for mortal astrology, but something different for Sidereal astrology. Please correct that one if I'm wrong.
 
The latter is a 0-dot Stunt. In 2e, a 1-dot Stunt is literally any description more elaborate than "I attack", and a 2-dot Stunt is description that incorporates the environment (i.e. ongoing aspects of the scene independent from your own character). 3-dot Stunts are "you know it when you see it".

Actually, no. In 2e, a 1-dice stunt is described: "At the lowest level, one-die stunts require a good description of an action, adjudicated by the Storyteller." whatever the fuck a "good description" is. Ironically, this means that its easierto squeeze 2-dot stunts out of a by-the-rules ST with high standards than it is to make a 1-dot stunt that appeases them... The only real indication we have of what a 1-dot stunt is is the two-sentence description of Anoira assassinating a guard, which would seem to imply that the standard for 2e 1-dot stunts are higher than "any description more elaborate than 'I attack'", but "good description" is vague as fuck anyway. The example stunt is stupidly written in any case, since it includes a description of the result of the action, which would necessarily involve knowing the result of a dice-roll that hasn't been made yet...

The 2-dot stunt description is four sentences long and only off-handedly mentions the environment, because clear-cut examples are for pikers.
 
That Occult/Lore change still strikes me as inherently hilarious because its so obviously a kneejerk "anything but 2e" response made with no actual attention paid to how deeply it would effect the setting, its major actors or established history, and no thought spent after that point to reconcile it. They see it as just a change of paint, like Charms not being codified things. Meanwhile, Gods of magic domains don't understand how magic works! The First Age was built atop apparently tens of thousands of unplanned miraculous one-offs, not a magical industrial revolution. How does Autochthonia even exist anymore without imploding?

If you asked both the Unconquered Sun with his perfect knowledge of Heaven, and Jupiter with her awareness of all things hidden or unknown, why mote transfer via prayer happens, they would shrug three pairs of shoulders between the two of them!

Welcome to the new trend of Unspecified Equals Mystery!
 
That Occult/Lore change still strikes me as inherently hilarious because its so obviously a kneejerk "anything but 2e" response made with no actual attention paid to how deeply it would effect the setting, its major actors or established history, and no thought spent after that point to reconcile it. They see it as just a change of paint, like Charms not being codified things. Meanwhile, Gods of magic domains don't understand how magic works! The First Age was built atop apparently tens of thousands of unplanned miraculous one-offs, not a magical industrial revolution. How does Autochthonia even exist anymore without imploding?

If you asked both the Unconquered Sun with his perfect knowledge of Heaven, and Jupiter with her awareness of all things hidden or unknown, why mote transfer via prayer happens, they would shrug three pairs of shoulders between the two of them!

Welcome to the new trend of Unspecified Equals Mystery!
Pretty much. There's a certain air of patronizing condescension from that kind of setting, if you ask me; the implicit assumption that your simian mind can't possibly grasp the sublime heartrending perfection of their delirious magyck, but they'll make allowances for you and jangle their keys in front of your face every now and then, just so as not to seem boorish.

Coherence? Such a limited concept - here, have this contradictory mess of vaguely-mystical pap, and don't you dare turn your nose up!

Judging by what I've seen so far, 3E seems to be at least as much of a bodge as 2E, but for the opposite reason - instead of nobody giving a shit, a handful of people gave entirely too much of one about ensuring the setting adhered to this vague pseudoconcept that can only really be defined by saying it's not any of various example other things, and were so convinced of their cosmic correctness that any contradictions their work created were shrugged off as insignificant ripples in the wake of their genius.
 
This was exactly the same in 2E, people are just pretending that it wasn't.
Actually "Retainers" were strictly non-combatants, the other one is called "Followers".
edit:
You're forgetting "Henchmen" which in the age of sorrows gives you Heroic Mortals who can at least in theory get shit done.

2e had a huge problem with backgrounds not scaling the same - all were costed linearly, but some scaled linearly for benefit while others scaled quadratically or exponetiall, or inconsitently.

3e's devs didn't fix this problem (i'm not sure they even understood it was a problem), and in facg made it worse by melding backgrounds with merits, which were all overcosted.

Especially thaumaturgy, which is now dumb "spend way too much bp for a lame single effect" merit BS.

I like Exalted's animism over it's Wu Shu, so 3e thaumaturgy is my biggest complaint against 3e. give me back my shaminism, damnit!
 
You're forgetting "Henchmen"
I didn't;
This was exactly the same in 2E, people are just pretending that it wasn't.
Actually "Retainers" were strictly non-combatants, the other one is called "Followers".
edit:
• Allies—Friends and associates who help in tasks.
• Command—Authority over a military unit.
• Followers—Mortals who look to you for guidance.
• Henchmen—Loyal and often ruthless agents who do your bidding.
• Retainers—Personal servants or slaves.
 
@Jon Chung, honestly, if I was the GM of someone who outsources significant parts of his actions to Allies, I'd require him to play all those allies himself. If he's going to essentially have multiple player characters in-game, then he can acknowedge that to be the case and handle their bookkeeping. With GM oversight, of course, same as PCs normally get.
 
Doing complex math equations in an empty room, alone, and occasionally gesturing to your calculator so he can confirm a seemingly incongruous bit of your equation...

... Not boring.

I don't know where you're going with this.
You know what it means, if astrology involves mathematics?

It means you need educated people. Which means you need writing systems to record knowledge, you need civilizations capable of supporting a specialized knowledge-base, you need places these can gather to meet and learn and share ideas. It means you get factions who favour one school of thought and process over another, you get orthodoxies and heresies and innovations, you get great figures and hate figures. It means you get political controversy when the ruling class favours one group over another, and you get falsified results when an astrologer doesn't want to bear bad news.

It means you get artisans making fine silver telescopes, and spies copying precious star charts, and engineers commissioned to construct great towers that can view the stars ever more clearly. It means you get trade embargoes blocking the finest sand from getting to the mountains where the best astrology is practiced, and bribery changing a child's "official" date or place of birth to alter the facts of an astrological reading, and apprentice astrologers who make windows because it's a more profitable application of their glass-making knowledge than casting cheap fortunes.

It means you get failed astrologers beckoning the disciples of the Pavane of Dying Stars for knowledge of alien skies, and conspirators praying that their local storm gods will obscure the heavens during a particularly vital reading, and the sorcerous master of the colleges making a show of riding an elemental horse above the clouds themselves to take his measurements.

If astrology requires mathematics, that means it requires human thought.

This comes with all sorts of baggage and edifices and requirements, which are interesting as hell.

If "astrology" requires chatting up otherwise insensate spirits... it doesn't.

Also, no it's not how astrology "works" in real life, because IRL astrology is basically an exercise in creative reinterpretation and self-delusion. I suppose if I was trying to make a legitimate point and not just ad-libbing flavor text because somebody's post gave me a snippet idea, I might have had reason to look up what the laws of astrology currently are. In fact, I'd better go back and edit that information into my original post.
I'm not talking about newspaper self-help guides, I'm talking about astrology.

Actual, real-life astrology - the kind of shit that mattered.

Cities in Mesoamerica were built on astrological principles, and the Aztecs considered astrology a field of knowledge suited to royalty. Rulers across Europe arranged marriages and coronations on auspicious dates according to astrological predictions. Ancient medicines had their effectiveness linked to the alignment of planets and stars. Whole nations set their calendars (quite literally) on the word of astrologers, in ancient times, and you could expect a well-picked astrologer - with great records of past events and calculations of future alignments - to stand alongside a ruler's greatest ministers as a matter of course.

The first Roman Emperor, Octavian, made sure to cement his claim to the imperial throne with astrological backing. Astronomers in ancient China were executed for not predicting an eclipse. John Dee was imprisoned and threatened with burning just for casting a horoscope for Queen Mary I.

Across the world, astrology has - for ages and ages - been this weird and fascinating melange of scientific practice and political reality and religious or pseudo-religious belief that is perfect for Exalted. People lived by this stuff - and died for it.

Third - well, okay. You do have absolute seniority here, but I was making the basic extrapolation that if Solars can order around least gods, then Thaumaturges should be able to get them to talk about something they previously experienced, and talking up pieces of wood and scraps of light for tales of a man's past seems far more interesting as a means of describing a PC's dice results than "Okay, you successfully conjugate the logarithm of the 17th house of Mars. Your chosen target is therefore blah, blerg, & also bloop."
Well, I'm not leaning on seniority - it's just not something that's ever been the case in Exalted. Look at the Varang City-States or even the actual Art of Astrology to see how non-Sidereals generally deal with it. There's a grand total of one piece of magic that I'm aware of which interrogates least gods, and it's She Who Lives in Her Name doing brute force data recall. Certainly, "order around least gods" isn't something Solars have ever been particularly noted for - least gods aren't actors in the setting, and are intended more as fun flavour than relevant entities. Notably, they only exist in Creation - but those powers which seem to make use of them work just as well in the Underworld or Malfeas.

Welp, I'm out then. 3E's particular brand of Deliria-esque woo-woo is the exact opposite of what I'm here for. Have fun.
I'm not taking sides on that one, just pointing out the distinction. If anything, your version of events fits better with 3e than 1/2e.
 
Last edited:
On a completely unrelated subject; I really like Evocations, and I like making them, but I lack experience in trying to deal with the specifities of their design (small self-contained trees with a strong guiding theme that focused on enhancing one weapon exclusively), so I need to make more to get a better sense of them.

I also really like Dark Souls' unique weapons (all three games), so they seem to provide good fodder for that kind of experimentation. There are a lot of them, though, so instead of browsing through lists until I can narrow it down I'm going to try something else: you suggest me a Souls weapon you'd like to see as an Ex3 Artifact and I try to do it. I'm probably not gonna manage more than three in a row, so three suggestions sounds like a good point.

The final result is probably going to be beyond the original concept in scope, since DS weapons tend to just be powerful weapons with occasionally one relatively straightforward special attack, but that's fine. I like taking something and making it more.
 
On a completely unrelated subject; I really like Evocations, and I like making them, but I lack experience in trying to deal with the specifities of their design (small self-contained trees with a strong guiding theme that focused on enhancing one weapon exclusively), so I need to make more to get a better sense of them.

I also really like Dark Souls' unique weapons (all three games), so they seem to provide good fodder for that kind of experimentation. There are a lot of them, though, so instead of browsing through lists until I can narrow it down I'm going to try something else: you suggest me a Souls weapon you'd like to see as an Ex3 Artifact and I try to do it. I'm probably not gonna manage more than three in a row, so three suggestions sounds like a good point.

The final result is probably going to be beyond the original concept in scope, since DS weapons tend to just be powerful weapons with occasionally one relatively straightforward special attack, but that's fine. I like taking something and making it more.
Dragonslayer Swordspear. I made a character using a refluffed Volcano Cutter to represent this once, but it does t fit as well as I'd like. I'm curious what you'd make of it.
 
You know, something that annoys me of the whole magic-as-tech is that there is no way for the player to see the difference between actual, proper magic and cargo cult magic, except in the number of successes you get in your occult roll.

How can i know, at a glance, if the ritual these people are using to power the ancient solar lance is the right one or the creation equivalent of carving wood headphones?
To go back several pages - this is a fun idea that doesn't get a huge amount of play in the setting, it's true. I recall a city in 2e's North that practiced totally unnecessary human sacrifice to keep a manse working, but that's about it. A personal favourite I came up with was an ancient defense automaton from the First Age that had been utterly overgrown by moss and vines and tiny Wood elementals. The village it sat near had built a shrine around it and worshiped it as a protector, and passed down a sacred chant from village elder to village elder that would awaken it in times of need to destroy outsiders. They didn't realize that the minutes-long song of awakening just happened to contain three sections that phonetically approximated its (relatively brief) activation code.

On a completely unrelated subject; I really like Evocations, and I like making them, but I lack experience in trying to deal with the specifities of their design (small self-contained trees with a strong guiding theme that focused on enhancing one weapon exclusively), so I need to make more to get a better sense of them.

I also really like Dark Souls' unique weapons (all three games), so they seem to provide good fodder for that kind of experimentation. There are a lot of them, though, so instead of browsing through lists until I can narrow it down I'm going to try something else: you suggest me a Souls weapon you'd like to see as an Ex3 Artifact and I try to do it. I'm probably not gonna manage more than three in a row, so three suggestions sounds like a good point.

The final result is probably going to be beyond the original concept in scope, since DS weapons tend to just be powerful weapons with occasionally one relatively straightforward special attack, but that's fine. I like taking something and making it more.
Well, Dark Souls 3 weapon arts allow more room for that sort of thing.

With that in mind... hm. That old classic the Moonlight Greatsword, with Evocations based on sharing forbidden knowledge, driving people (including its wielder) into mad delusions, and blasting dudes with moonlight. Wolnir's Holy Sword, a sacred weapon forged by the gods that was eroded down to a mere core by the corrosive touch of the Abyss. The King's Mirror, a great mirrored shield that can deflect spells and spawn living reflections.
 
Back
Top