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Game of Thrones Season 7

Hykal94 said:
The point is Dany does not win hearts and minds. Saladin did. Dany talks about being saviour of Westeros and convinces no one. Saladin did become saviour of Egypt and greatly diminished Crusader forces. Dany executed important nobles. Saladin pardoned the literal king of Jerusalem.
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Randyl did not bend the knee. Refused to do so right to her face. Bend the knee or die has been how things work in Westeros since ever. It's a bad comparison in the first place to compare Westeros and the real world, different cultures and different ways of thinking.

Would Saladin have pardoned the king if the King was literally defiant right in his face and talked down how Saladin is a cruel, barbaric invader?

Hykal94 said:
Dany? Dany burned one of the most important lords in Westeros. Just like her father.
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And Stannis would do the exact same thing. Again, You need to think in terms of how Westeros people do things.

Hykal94 said:
Do you have the barest understanding of right to rule?
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Do you? It's literally been a thing since Aegon came over: If you have the power, you rule. Names and bloodlines only satisfy the Maesters.
 
Action packed and zombie-filled episode this week.

To be honest there is not that much to comment on this episode. The fights were amazing as was the witty banter between the northern adventurers. Sandor fucked up and almost killed everyone. Thoros almost died to an undead bear that was set on fire and then froze to death. Kind of anti-climactic. As much as I love all of these characters I expected more to do. Benjen did his sacrifice which was cool. Jon as always is a boss. The wights are now known to die Phantom Menace style when their controllers die. Viserion (whom I think is the dragon) died and I can respect that the Night King was the one to do it and is now basically unstoppable.

Arya and Sansa have a little spat going on and it seems as if Littlefinger is playing them (like a goddam fiddle). See how that all shakes out. Arya is also pretty scary to Sansa this episode.
Another episode that I enjoyed.
 
Polokun said:
Both sides ultimately were about fighting and killing each other because of religion.
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Mate, the Crusaders had an alliance with the emir of Damascus against the Zangids in Aleppo and Mosul. Similarly, the Islamic states tended to fight each other way more than they did Christians even if they bordered them, as evinced by, for example, the Seljuks having lost Palestine to the Fatimids before its capture by the Crusaders.

Shit was complex, yo.
 
Polokun said:
And Stannis would do the exact same thing. Again, You need to think in terms of how Westeros people do things.
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Stannis is a Baratheon, has a greater right to rule than Daenarys (because he's King Robert's younger brother), is known to be "just, but strict" as Eddard put it. Stannis may have embraced a foreign religion, but he still has better PR than Dany does.

Polokun said:
Do you? It's literally been a thing since Aegon came over: If you have the power, you rule. Names and bloodlines only satisfy the Maesters.
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And thus the entire theme of might does not make right than GRRM has been doing completely flies over your head.

Polokun said:
Would Saladin have pardoned the king if the King was literally defiant right in his face and talked down how Saladin is a cruel, barbaric invader?
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THAT IS LITERALLY WHAT SALADIN DID. HE PARDONED KING GUY OF JERUSALEM DESPITE KNOWING HE WOULD EASILY GO BACK AND FIGHT HIM AGAN AS HE DID IN THE SIEGE OF ACRE (1189-91).

And also, that is such a dumb fucking thing to say because the royal families of the Crusader States were the descendants of Frankish invaders, not the other fucking way around.
 
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all fictions said:
Mate, the Crusaders had an alliance with the emir of Damascus against the Zangids in Aleppo and Mosul. Similarly, the Islamic states tended to fight each other way more than they did Christians even if they bordered them, as evinced by, for example, the Seljuks having lost Palestine to the Fatimids before its capture by the Crusaders.

Shit was complex, yo.
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Not saying the intricacies were simple, but ultimately the reasons given are simple. Or that the Catholic Church just wanted to maintain and consolidate power. After all, who would ever go against the will of God?

Hykal94 said:
And thus the entire theme of might does not make right than GRRM has been doing completely flies over your head.
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So are you saying that Aegon was not a conqueror? Balerion did not kill thousands of soldiers with dragon fire? Stannis was totally going to win the war without fighting a single battle? Dany could have done everything she did without killing a single person?

Seriously, stop arguing in bad faith. You're literally ignoring the actions of people within the very series just to make a bad point. Plus, I would like a serious Citation Needed for you to back up that claim. Because in fact, power and blood have in fact, made things right a ton of times in the series, if not a ton of fiction. That's just how the world works.

Hykal94 said:
THAT IS LITERALLY WHAT SALADIN DID. HE PARDONED KING GUY OF JERUSALEM DESPITE KNOWING HE WOULD EASILY GO BACK AND FIGHT HIM AGAN AS HE DID IN THE SIEGE OF ACRE (1189-91).
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Then obviously Saladin was an idiot and should have killed him.
 
Nobody said:
It was Viserion, Jon's probably going to ride Rhaegal since its named for his father.



Only when you rewrite the series so that is how it works.
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Like if might made right Syrio was an idiot, Robb should have begged Joffrey for forgiveness for his father's "treason" as soon as Renly's army joined Joffrey, Dany herself should have accepted Robert as King, Ramsay should rule the North and Arya should never have stood up for Myach or Jon for the wildings and everyone should be waiting for their new Lords and executioners from beyond the Wall to grant them the honour of an eternity of service.

Right makes right isn't the point of the series, its the opposite. The point is that doing the right thing is hard, often unrewarding and whether you are the top or the bottom of the pyramid you are going to be confronted with injustices and lesser evils and troubling questions. Dany faced one such question here and her answer is the one she needs to unlearn by series end or humanity is doomed.
 
Polokun said:
Not saying the intricacies were simple, but ultimately the reasons given are simple. Or that the Catholic Church just wanted to maintain and consolidate power. After all, who would ever go against the will of God?


So are you saying that Aegon was not a conqueror? Balerion did not kill thousands of soldiers with dragon fire? Stannis was totally going to win the war without fighting a single battle? Dany could have done everything she did without killing a single person?

Seriously, stop arguing in bad faith. You're literally ignoring the actions of people within the very series just to make a bad point. Plus, I would like a serious Citation Needed for you to back up that claim. Because in fact, power and blood have in fact, made things right a ton of times in the series, if not a ton of fiction. That's just how the world works.


Then obviously Saladin was an idiot and should have killed him.
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That's just how the world works is probably the worst lesson you can take from the series. The answer is the world doesn't work any particular way and the more people believe that it doesn't have to work on the basis of the strong preying upon the weak, the rich the poor and the male the female and the highborn the low than the better it will be.

Maybe you'll lose, perhaps more than you win, perhaps more people will lose their personal battles than will win but (shamefully ripping this from Joannalannister) as Ned himself asks. "What if we prevail?" The heroes are confronted with challenges and their own desires, some will fall short, others will fail but what happens doesn't matter so much as the fact they tried and took a stand and if they keep trying, if they inspire others and if enough people don't give into the easy logic then maybe the Kings or Queens of the future will not choose to burn captives, maybe the Knights of the realm will remember their pledge to protect the weak and innocent. Maybe the wheel will be broken. But that's a battle that won't be won with dragonfyre.
 
Polokun said:
Not saying the intricacies were simple, but ultimately the reasons given are simple. Or that the Catholic Church just wanted to maintain and consolidate power. After all, who would ever go against the will of God?
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You know jack all about the Crusades do you?

Polokun said:
Seriously, stop arguing in bad faith. You're literally ignoring the actions of people within the very series just to make a bad point. Plus, I would like a serious Citation Needed for you to back up that claim. Because in fact, power and blood have in fact, made things right a ton of times in the series, if not a ton of fiction. That's just how the world works.
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It's not bad faith, you silly man. It's about the power of propaganda and right to rule. I, and many of us, criticise Dany because she's shit at it, and that Stannis and eveyrone else is doing it faaaaaar better than she is. Hell, when the false dragon comes to Westeros with the Golden Company in the books, he would still have better PR than Dany does.

And I'm talking about themes that ASOIAF espouses. That nepotism is bad, that royalty does not make you right, that might does not make you right, that just because you're a bastard doesn't make you worthless. You know, a critique of royalty and the elite? The thing that GRRM talks about all the time in interviews.

Polokun said:
Then obviously Saladin was an idiot and should have killed him.
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Saladin is remembered as a symbol of chivalry, a defender of Islam, a mighty jihadist, and is one of Egypt's most celebrated kings. His legacy helped when his own Ayyubid dynasty fell as the Mamluks used his ideas of jihad to beat back more Crusaders and saved Egypt and by extension Mecca from the wrath of the Mongols, saving the holiest cities of one the world's biggest religions.

Most people don't know who the hell King Guy of Jerusalem was.
 
all fictions said:
Or rather it wanted to maintain peace (Peace and Truce of God - Wikipedia) among Christian nations by redirecting the violence elsewhere.
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Sounds more like they didn't want to lose their power by having a chaotic in-fighting nation.

"Hey everybody! There's a bunch of infidels way over there that took the holy land! You all love God right?"

Mortis Nuntius said:
That's just how the world works is probably the worst lesson you can take from the series. The answer is the world doesn't work any particular way and the more people believe that it doesn't have to work on the basis of the strong preying upon the weak, the rich the poor and the male the female and the highborn the low than the better it will be.

Maybe you'll lose, perhaps more than you win, perhaps more people will lose their personal battles than will win but (shamefully ripping this from Joannalannister) as Ned himself asks. "What if we prevail?" The heroes are confronted with challenges and their own desires, some will fall short, others will fail but what happens doesn't matter so much as the fact they tried and took a stand and if they keep trying, if they inspire others and if enough people don't give into the easy logic then maybe the Kings or Queens of the future will not choose to burn captives, maybe the Knights of the realm will remember their pledge to protect the weak and innocent. Maybe the wheel will be broken. But that's a battle that won't be won with dragonfyre.
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All the dead Starks has me believe otherwise.

Hykal94 said:
It's not bad faith, you silly man. It's about the power of propaganda and right to rule. I, and many of us, criticise Dany because she's shit at it, and that Stannis and eveyrone else is doing it faaaaaar better than she is. Hell, when the false dragon comes to Westeros with the Golden Company in the books, he would still have better PR than Dany does.
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Tell me something, if Stannis had 3 dragons, would he never use them? If not, please give a good reason as to why he wouldn't use a weapon that takes down the enemy fast while also not putting his own troops at risk.
 
Polokun said:
Tell me something, if Stannis had 3 dragons, would he never use them? If not, please give a good reason as to why he wouldn't use a weapon that takes down the enemy fast while also not putting his own troops at risk.
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He wouldn't fucking burn one of the most important lords of Westeros in front of his own vassals. He'd used it for sure, but make no mistake, he'd keep his image in check.

The point is Dany is a shit propagandist. Perhaps you're arguing in bad faith when people point out that Dany does nothing to prove to Westeros she is her saviour.

To them, she isn't. She's a savage barbarian with dragons and Dothraki.

Polokun said:
Sounds more like they didn't want to lose their power by having a chaotic in-fighting nation.

"Hey everybody! There's a bunch of infidels way over there that took the holy land! You all love God right?"
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You know jack all about the Crusades do you?
 
Hykal94 said:
You know jack all about the Crusades do you?
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I know that Saladin is not the pinnacle of awesomeness as you claim him to be. To quote another site:

While Saladin in particular is remembered for his tolerance and humane treatment, he behaved in such way only when it suited him. After the Battle of the Horns of Hattin, Saladin had 100-200 Templars and Hospitallers executed by Sufis and Islamic scholars, men for the most part unfamiliar in the use of weapons, leading to clumsy, agonizing deaths for many of the prisoners. Saladin, by his own admission, intended to sack Jerusalem, and only abstained from doing so when the commander of Jerusalem, Balian d'Ibelin, threatened to destroy the Islamic Holy Places and execute thousands of Muslim prisoners. Earlier, before he began his conquest of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, he put down a Sudanese revolt in Egypt by burning down their quarter of Cairo...with their women and children still inside their homes. After the Sudanese troops surrendered, he promised them safe passage up the Nile, only to have them massacred when they left Cairo in smaller, disorganized groups
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At least Dany had an enemy commander burnt alive. Not women and children.
 
Polokun said:
Sounds more like they didn't want to lose their power by having a chaotic in-fighting nation.

"Hey everybody! There's a bunch of infidels way over there that took the holy land! You all love God right?"


All the dead Starks has me believe otherwise.


Tell me something, if Stannis had 3 dragons, would he never use them? If not, please give a good reason as to why he wouldn't use a weapon that takes down the enemy fast while also not putting his own troops at risk.
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Jesus christ. All the dead Starks....

You realise Bran is set to save the world? Arya is set to come home with fleet of ships to save thousands of people, Sansa is gathering allies and learning politics and espionage (along with her already impressive skilsets) Robb will go down in history as brave and valiant murdered for love and honour on his part by a House that will be lucky to survive the coming storm as everyone on all sides despises them for their horrific act of treachery unmatched for thousands of years. That Jon will come back from the dead and face the army of the dead and that Eddard Stark and Catelyn Stark raised all their children to believe in justice and themselves and to deal with the horrible situation they find themselves in. In the books Ned and Cat's example constantly lead the Starklings through their trials even as they make their own mistakes and forge their own specific paths. The North Remembers isn't about murdering people at a wedding. Its about enacting justice, its about feeding starving children in the mountain, its about dying warmed by hot Bolton blood so that those left behind have enough food to eat, its about calling the Freys out on their hideous lies and its about honouring the fallen not thinking they were idiots for daring to believe that evil should be fought.
 
Polokun said:
Tell me something, if Stannis had 3 dragons, would he never use them? If not, please give a good reason as to why he wouldn't use a weapon that takes down the enemy fast while also not putting his own troops at risk.
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That's not what's being said. Using the dragons in the abstract isn't the problem, it's the specific use of them. Using dragons in battle is terrifying, but accepted, at least to a degree. Using dragons to kill prisoners (especially noble prisoners of war)? That's different.

It's the difference between killing a thousand men on the battlefield and stuff like the red wedding.
 
In case you hadn't noticed, everyone in both books and show who operates by ruthless might makes right or game theory logic has gotten fucked over by it eventually. Moreso in books, but in show it's still present.

Polokun said:
All the dead Starks has me believe otherwise.
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Yeah, like Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Sansa... Arya... Bra- uh... what?

Well, it's a better idea to compare ratios. Surely less Lannisters have died considering how they're smarter and more ruthless than the Starks!

*checks*

Uh... Alton, Joffrey, Tywin, Myrcella, Tommen, Kevan, Lancel... uh...

What about the Tyrells, Boltons and Marte-

*blinks*

Fffffrreeeys....?...

... shit.
 
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Cosar said:
It's the difference between killing a thousand men on the battlefield and stuff like the red wedding.
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What's worse? Killing a thousand or more men in battle, or just a couple dozen at a wedding?

Say what you will about Tywin, but that was ultimately the pragmatic choice.

Mortis Nuntius said:
You realise Bran is set to save the world? Arya is set to come home with fleet of ships to save thousands of people, Sansa is gathering allies and learning politics and espionage (along with her already impressive skilsets) Robb will go down in history as brave and valiant murdered for love and honour on his part by a House that will be lucky to survive the coming storm as everyone on all sides despises them for their horrific act of treachery unmatched for thousands of years. That Jon will come back from the dead and face the army of the dead and that Eddard Stark and Catelyn Stark raised all their children to believe in justice and themselves and to deal with the horrible situation they find themselves in. In the books Ned and Cat's example constantly lead the Starklings through their trials even as they make their own mistakes and forge their own specific paths. The North Remembers isn't about murdering people at a wedding. Its about enacting justice, its about feeding starving children in the mountain, its about dying warmed by hot Bolton blood so that those left behind have enough food to eat, its about calling the Freys out on their hideous lies and its about honouring the fallen not thinking they were idiots for daring to believe that evil should be fought.
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It's about dying trying to do the right thing and ultimately accomplishing nothing.
 
Reveen said:
You do know that the Red Wedding not only killed members of just about every Northern house, but also Robb's entire host of thousands of men?

Making entire nations of angry hairy people with really big weapons fucking hate your guts is not pragmatic. Ask the Romans.
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Duh. Which is why he let the Freys take the blame.
 
Polokun said:
What's worse? Killing a thousand or more men in battle, or just a couple dozen at a wedding?

Say what you will about Tywin, but that was ultimately the pragmatic choice.
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What's worse, saying that violence should be restricted as much as possible or that violence should be constant in all aspects of society? That anyone and everyone who swears allegence to you can be considered an enemy agent and should be killed as soon as possible?

Tywin's decision is one grounded in ending the war as soon as possible, which it succeeds, but only by ensuring that the next war will occur, and when it does the North will aim for extermination.
Polokun said:
Duh. Which is why he let the Freys take the blame.
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Except anyone with more than 1/10th of a brain knows that the Lannisters were involved in this. So in one action he's made long term enemies of 2 of the seven kingdoms, and he's already on bad terms with a third.
 
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Cosar said:
What's worse, saying that violence should be restricted as much as possible or that violence should be constant in all aspects of society? That anyone and everyone who swears allegence to you can be considered an enemy agent and should be killed as soon as possible?

Tywin's decision is one grounded in ending the war as soon as possible, which it succeeds, but only by ensuring that the next war will occur, and when it does the North will aim for extermination.
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Unless you got a House that's all about fear and flaying people in charge up north for you.
 
Polokun said:
I know that Saladin is not the pinnacle of awesomeness as you claim him to be. To quote another site:
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And he is still remembered as a symbol of chivalry.

That's Saladin's genius. Despite the terrible things he did, he did far more good than harm. His image of a defender of Islam greatly outweigh the more ruthless things he committed. His very legacy was used to beat back Crusaders and Mongols. That jihad culture alone was very important in the fight against the Mongols. So much so, that even the rulers of Ilkhanate converted to Islam to keep their citizens happy.

How about you actually go to your local library and read up on this complex topics rather than ignore other people's arguments about the Crusades?

Also, nice of you to ignore my other arguments knowing full well you can't counter them. Who is arguing in bad faith here exactly?

Polokun said:
Say what you will about Tywin, but that was ultimately the pragmatic choice.
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And that's why the North stayed quiet and grumbled and NOT wage a guerilla war against the Freys, the Boltons and the Lannisters.

Oh wait ....
 
Polokun said:
What's worse? Killing a thousand or more men in battle, or just a couple dozen at a wedding?

Say what you will about Tywin, but that was ultimately the pragmatic choice.
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What's worse? Killing a thousand or men in battle, or murdering all of them after promising them safety and pretending to accept the agreement they offered?

Hykal94 said:
And that's why the North stayed quiet and grumbled and NOT wage a guerilla war against the Freys, the Boltons and the Lannisters.

Oh wait ....
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Or why, despite a precarious hold on power the Boltons rebelled against the Lannisters by marrying Sansa to gain legitimacy in their hold on power.
 
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Polokun said:
Duh. Which is why he let the Freys take the blame.
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Well, yes. In the show the Notherners are really fucking stupid and completely forget about the South after the wedding.

In the books the connection between the Lannisters and the Frey's is blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes and a brain, and nerve endings connecting the eyes to the brain.
 
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