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Game of Thrones Season 7

1986ctcel said:
Huh I thought I remembered something about Robert sending assassin's every year as a "birthday present"?
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In the books at least the attempt after her marriage to Drogo was the first time he'd ever sent assassins after them. Dany claiming she's been hounded by assassins her whole life is just her buying into Viserys paranoia as fact. (and if its the same in the show just Varys continuing to refuse to correct her)
 
So This episode... Okay a few things. One, holy shit this winterfell plot is awful. Are the writers expecting me to feel conflicted here? Or is my visceral hate for psycho Arya the intended reaction? I would say yes but the music cues and the way it seems to be framed points to not being so. Jon's Wight hunt went predictably badly. On both a story and show way. I wish we got a line or two from Tormunds redshirts before died to increase the tension. Jon falling into the lake and being saved by Benjen looked cool for a moment. I expected the two to escape and then they could catch up in a cave or something. Benjen could tell Jon about the Children of the forest and the others and Jon could talk about what was happening south of the way. But no, Benjen dies in what I see as a hamfisted way to kill that subplot. Dany and Jon getting all lovey dovey is eye rolling. Not least because this whole thing is relying on the old fanfic trope of "other characters saying how in love they are to establish a bad romance". And finally the chains... Okay so I am going to be really fair and say that those type of huge chains look similar to stuff on the wall so it's possible the Wight army got some from a nightswatch castle that fell out of use. The problem is that I don't see why this whole thing was worth it. Dying dragon could have easily crashed into a cliff or the beach of the lake then the nights king could just walk up to it and do his voodoo thing. It's bad screen writing to do something like this. Finally I am not going to go into depth about the time and travel inconsistencies but rest assured they are still here.
 
I don't find Dany's execution of nobles who refuse to submit to her particularly problematic from a medieval history perspective. Yes, it was typical for nobility to be ransomed rather than killed in most battles of the high-medieval period and on, but certainly not all; and civil wars often inverted the rules. Specifically, much of GoT is modeled on the Wars of the Roses, in which we know, according to Philippe de Commines:
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King Edward told me in all the battles which he had won, as soon as he had gained victory, he mounted his horse and shouted to his men that they must spare the common soldiers and kill the lords, of whom none or few escaped.
This is, notably, even less merciful than how Dany is acting. Now, how often Edward actually carried out this verbal threat in full is contested by historians, but it certainly was at some points -- after Towton, for example:
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Thomas Courtenay, Earl of Devon, the son of the Earl who had originally backed Edward's father and had then forsaken him, was taken prisoner and beheaded in York a few days after the battle. James Butler, Earl of Wiltshire, suffered a similar fate when he was captured a few weeks later. According to Gregory, the executions did not end there. Contrary to Edward's orders, 42 Lancastrian knights were taken prisoner. If their captors were hoping for ransom they were to be disappointed. Edward was merciless, and ordered that they too should be beheaded.
Whether or not this is the best course of action for Dany is another question, but there are clear historical parallels at work here.
 
Minow said:
I don't find Dany's execution of nobles who refuse to submit to her particularly problematic from a medieval history perspective. Yes, it was typical for nobility to be ransomed rather than killed in most battles of the high-medieval period and on, but certainly not all; and civil wars often inverted the rules. Specifically, much of GoT is modeled on the Wars of the Roses, in which we know, according to Philippe de Commines:
Article:
King Edward told me in all the battles which he had won, as soon as he had gained victory, he mounted his horse and shouted to his men that they must spare the common soldiers and kill the lords, of whom none or few escaped.
This is, notably, even less merciful than how Dany is acting. Now, how often Edward actually carried out this verbal threat in full is contested by historians, but it certainly was at some points -- after Towton, for example:
Article:
Thomas Courtenay, Earl of Devon, the son of the Earl who had originally backed Edward's father and had then forsaken him, was taken prisoner and beheaded in York a few days after the battle. James Butler, Earl of Wiltshire, suffered a similar fate when he was captured a few weeks later. According to Gregory, the executions did not end there. Contrary to Edward's orders, 42 Lancastrian knights were taken prisoner. If their captors were hoping for ransom they were to be disappointed. Edward was merciless, and ordered that they too should be beheaded.
Whether or not this is the best course of action for Dany is another question, but there are clear historical parallels at work here.
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But its not a medieval perspective, its the perspective that she is a foreign conqueror who claims she is just restoring the natural order of peace and justice and bringing new liberty to all whilst completely ignoring that a good chunk of those people in front of he are older than her and actually remember what Aerys did and was like. They also know that the Dothraki sure as fuck aint local or pleasent to have rampage through her lands.


Dany executing the prisoners wasn't unprecedented but it was a very Targaryen way to do it and the act itself really undermines her claim that everyone should forget all the tyranny and murders and massacres of the Targaryens and just focus on how swell she is. Honestly would it shock if you at all if Cersei manages to raise a new army whilst Dany is negotiating with and dallying about the North just because the Dothraki are picking the land clean and Dany's too busy to notice? She's got an uphill struggle PR wise and managed to turn it from Heroine fights mad queen to Mad King's daughter back and acting like nothing's changed since Aerys was burning Lord Paramonts.


Its bad politics but it also undermines her mission and ideology. Though in fairness the show (and the books) don't pretend its a smart move or morally sound but rather show that she's a Dragon and Dragons burn shit. Dany needs to either overcome that or burn things with higher purpose like that Army of the dead.
 
Turning the Stark girls against each other is a terrible, terrible fucking idea? What the fuck are the writers doing? Does this show not have enough grimdark soap opera drama bullshit? Why do they feel the need to keep roping the series into fake-ass game show scheming bullshit? They already ruined the post-Joffrey King's Landing plot with that shit. I wanted to do a big rant on that specifically, but it's obvious this show is justing fucking around at this point so why bother?

I don't even understand what they're doing with Arya. If she's going to become an evil ninja assassin robot who's basically completely unrecognizable from her characterization in the vast majority of the show bringing her in to be hanging around Sansa has no use aside from the most shallow of fanservice. She should be out fucking up her enemy's plans, not fucking up her family's plans for no reason.

And why is Littlefinger still in the show? His role in the story is over. It's done. They're just keeping him around to fuck over the Starks again for the sake of drama.

I rescind anything bad I said about the Jon plot, I'll take dumb fantasy action and dick jokes over this endless soap opera Moebius strip.
 
Reveen said:
Turning the Stark girls against each other is a terrible, terrible fucking idea? What the fuck are the writers doing? Does this show not have enough grimdark soap opera drama bullshit? Why do they feel the need to keep roping the series into fake-ass game show scheming bullshit? They already ruined the post-Joffrey King's Landing plot with that shit. I wanted to do a big rant on that specifically, but it's obvious this show is justing fucking around at this point so why bother?

I don't even understand what they're doing with Arya. If she's going to become an evil ninja assassin robot who's basically completely unrecognizable from her characterization in the vast majority of the show bringing her in to be hanging around Sansa has no use aside from the most shallow of fanservice. She should be out fucking up her enemy's plans, not fucking up her family's plans for no reason.

And why is Littlefinger still in the show? His role in the story is over. It's done. They're just keeping him around to fuck over the Starks again for the sake of drama.

I rescind anything bad I said about the Jon plot, I'll take dumb fantasy action and dick jokes over this endless soap opera Moebius strip.
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Littlefinger either needs to be the archvillain of the entire story, or he needs to die or otherwise be removed from it.
 
You know, littlefinger is obviously being a scheming bastard. But so far this season he has not done much wrong. Like, his big plans so far are: get Sansa the power that is rightfully and logically hers. And inform Sansa that her sister is a dangerous psychopath. Something that is clearly true.
 
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Finally sat down and watched the episode.

Spoilery points.

1. "Dany that was dumb." "No he didn't bend the knee." "IT WAS A REALLY DUMB MOVE, YOUR GRACE." Thank you Tyrion for literally saying what everyone's been yelling.

2. A girl has shitty memory.

3a. "We need to capture a zombie as proof." "Let's send small packs of experienced rangers to nab a straggler." "How about we send the actual King to capture a pawn with a rag tag group of misfits who probably aren't all that used and experienced in trekking through deep snow and harsh coldness?" "By the Seven Bob you're a fucking genius."

3b. "Let's go to Fantasy North Pole!" "Should we bring hats or maybe some thick gambessons?" "Nah man who needs ear protection in the freezing winter anyway." "Are any of you good with a bow to shoot any game or take out something silently at a distance?" "I have some Charcoal Pine Resin." "That'll do just fine."

3c. "We should bring horses." "Nah, 4 redshirts and a sled is good enough."

4. Gendry ran more miles in half an episode than the entire Undead Army did in 8 seasons.

5. Being a Mercy player is a thankless job.

6. God that warhammer looks so much like a toy.

7. At least the dragon scene was pretty. Wear a fucking helmet, Dany.
 
Hykal94 said:
3a. "We need to capture a zombie as proof." "Let's send small packs of experienced rangers to nab a straggler." "How about we send the actual King to capture a pawn with a rag tag group of misfits who probably aren't all that used and experienced in trekking through deep snow and harsh coldness?" "By the Seven Bob you're a fucking genius."
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But a few good men strategy worked before!
 
I ain't a writer, but it would have been so much more believable to me if they showed the snowbound heroes to be a little bit better prepared. Why not have them set up camp on that rock, and have some trees and bushes there. Maybe make it so it's only accessible by a raft they cobbled together, since Jon knows that the AotD doesn't like going into the water. In fact they're not that far from the Wall. Perhaps Jon or Tormund already knew of a good place to make a camp. Maybe let them have a couple of ravens with them, some for Eastwatch, some for Dragonstone. Show them capturing the wight, and falling back to their prepared position. Then the WW show up, and surround them, *causing* the water to freeze. Because they're cold and all that. That way, there's no need for some stupid convenient ice that breaks only when the plot requires it. Then they don't have to run on ice. Have you ever tried that? It doesn't look pretty. They don't even need to spell out all that crap. Just show them leaving their camp on the rock, and then falling back to the rock. Then nobody would have to defend the teleporting ravens, and teleporting dragons. Now fans everywhere have to rally to B&W's aid, because they don't give a fuck about suspension of disbelief where travel times are concerned.
 
Leila Hann said:
Littlefinger either needs to be the archvillain of the entire story, or he needs to die or otherwise be removed from it.
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He kinda... is? At least in the books. He engineered the whole goddamn war, after all! It was him who told Lysa to poison her husband, and then send that letter to the Starks. It was him who encouraged Joffrey to sic the assassin on Bran with his Valyrian dagger, And it was him who claimed that he lost said dagger to Tyrion.

Alex said:
You know, littlefinger is obviously being a scheming bastard. But so far this season he has not done much wrong. Like, his big plans so far are: get Sansa the power that is rightfully and logically hers. And inform Sansa that her sister is a dangerous psychopath. Something that is clearly true.
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More even - gives her reasonable advice on how to solve that problem and maybe how to reconcile with her sister using a person as a mediator that both her and her sister can relate to. How dastardly!

Man, that episode. The stupid. It buuuurrrrns. So, the King goes onto a commando mission himself, because reasons, together with six randomly thrown together people... I mean, Jon didn't even take some of his Stark men or Nightwatch ranger with him, nope, rather a random boy from King's Landing and some people from the Nightwatch cells. Then they go to a mountain that one of the randos saw in his vision. Because sure, why not? And they make dick jokes on the way.

Then Jon gets randomly rescued by an Uncle Benjen who literally appears out of fucking nowhere, giving fuck all explanation where he had been all the time, only to just die then. And Dany losing Viserion... I just... "The dragon has three heads. We need three dragon rid... ah, you know what? Dany can control them all and one bites the dust ice."

And the Winterfell plot... gah. Sowing mistrust between Arya and Sansa is exactly what Littlefinger would do. I have no problem with that. In fact, I even thought it was well done how he did it. Of course he sticks around, and of course he continues to play his games. "Everyone is back at Winterfell, no more problems" would be fucking ridiculous. So I completely disagree with @Reveen here.

However - Arya is completely out of character. That she would go as far as to threaten her sister with murder is completely bonkers. What the FUCK?
 
Susano said:
And the Winterfell plot... gah. Sowing mistrust between Arya and Sansa is exactly what Littlefinger would do. I have no problem with that. In fact, I even thought it was well done how he did it. Of course he sticks around, and of course he continues to play his games. "Everyone is back at Winterfell, no more problems" would be fucking ridiculous. So I completely disagree with @Reveen here.

However - Arya is completely out of character. That she would go as far as to threaten her sister with murder is completely bonkers. What the FUCK?
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My pet theory is that Arya knows that Littlefinger knows she was watching -after all she didn't use that supply of faces to spy on him from the causeway or search his room- so she's playing the roll that she thinks he wants her to while she susses everything out.

And maybe uses her faces when/where she knows he won't be watching.


But it's probably just shit writing.
 
Mahrac said:
My pet theory is that Arya knows that Littlefinger knows she was watching -after all she didn't use that supply of faces to spy on him from the causeway or search his room- so she's playing the roll that she thinks he wants her to while she susses everything out.

And maybe uses her faces when/where she knows he won't be watching.


But it's probably just shit writing.
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Well, if you check the wording,
Arya did say she was playing the game of faces. That means everything she just told Sansa in that room was a lie. Perhaps Sansa caught that, perhaps not.

Or i could be thinking to much and the writers are just idiots.
 
Mahrac said:
My pet theory is that Arya knows that Littlefinger knows she was watching -after all she didn't use that supply of faces to spy on him from the causeway or search his room- so she's playing the roll that she thinks he wants her to while she susses everything out.

And maybe uses her faces when/where she knows he won't be watching.


But it's probably just shit writing.
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The leaks said that Littlefinger gets done in by Bran mentioning the shit he's done to Ary and Sansa who order him executed. So yeah, Arya is just being dumb because the plot needs filler until it's appropriate to kill LF
 
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Chloe Sullivan said:
Well, if you check the wording,
Arya did say she was playing the game of faces. That means everything she just told Sansa in that room was a lie. Perhaps Sansa caught that, perhaps not.

Or i could be thinking to much and the writers are just idiots.
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That gave me hope.

Nobody said:
The leaks said that Littlefinger gets done in by Bran mentioning the shit he's done to Ary and Sansa who order him executed. So yeah, Arya is just being dumb because the plot needs filler until it's approiate to kill LF
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And that sent a faceless man after that hope.
 
Susano said:
He kinda... is? At least in the books. He engineered the whole goddamn war, after all! It was him who told Lysa to poison her husband, and then send that letter to the Starks. It was him who encouraged Joffrey to sic the assassin on Bran with his Valyrian dagger, And it was him who claimed that he lost said dagger to Tyrion.
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In the books, yes.

The show seems to have forgotten his purpose.
 
I lol that people are hating on the most recent episodes. Almost nothing happened for 5 seasons straight and now that the show is actually exciting and has good pace it's *outrage*. :)
 
DocHawkeye said:
I lol that people are hating on the most recent episodes. Almost nothing happened for 5 seasons straight and now that the show is actually exciting and has good pace it's *outrage*. :)
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The fact that many of the complaints are "the show decreased in quality" kinda disprove your sneering, mate.
 
Susano said:
If flitting around Westeros as if everyone had personal teleporters is the "proper pace", then something is wrong.
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Would it be so hard for Bran to see what is coming and send the raven beforehand? It could even lead to a subplot about Bran seeing the future and not stopping all those brave men dying because Daenerys seeing the truth was more important. Sansa and Arya trying to connect with Bran would be a lot better personal drama wise than fighting each other over LF.
 
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