Remove ads

Game of Thrones Season 7

Polokun said:
What's worse? Killing a thousand or more men in battle, or just a couple dozen at a wedding?

Say what you will about Tywin, but that was ultimately the pragmatic choice.


It's about dying trying to do the right thing and ultimately accomplishing nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Fucking hell...


A dozen at dinner plus several thousand outside plus everyone who dies afterwards now that oaths and guest right and kinship and all the rest of the taboos that keep a medieval society function are destroyed. Tywin was wrong. He died on the fucking toilet by the son who would have probably climbed the wall if Tywin said he'd be impressed by it and acknowledge him as an individual. He raised Jaime and Cersei and nearly crushed their few virtues. He burned half the seven kingdoms down when if he'd played smart he could have bloodlessly waltzed back into power twice. Tywin was capable and smart and diligent but his arrogance and spite and cruelty poison everything he does.


If saving humanity, liberating Winterfel, avenging the Red Wedding and restoring just and humane rule to the North is nothing than you probably need to rethink your priorities. The North Remembers is only nothing if its devalued into a badass one liner Arya says before she murders someone. Its so much more than even justice and certainly more than revenge.
 
Last edited:
Reveen said:
Well, yes. In the show the Notherners are really fucking stupid and completely forget about the South after the wedding.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That reminds me of how a few weeks ago on another site I saw people suggesting the Northerners did nothing because they ran out of time and had to make changes to the Battle of Bastards because of it since they were filming the episode in chronological order and lost time due to weather and trouble filming.
 
Hykal94 said:
And he is still remembered as a symbol of chivalry.

That's Saladin's genius. Despite the terrible things he did, he did far more good than harm. His image of a defender of Islam greatly outweigh the more ruthless things he committed. His very legacy was used to beat back Crusaders and Mongols. That jihad culture alone was very important in the fight against the Mongols. So much so, that even the rulers of Ilkhanate converted to Islam to keep their citizens happy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
By your own comparison, Saladin is WORSE then Dany as far as actual actions taken. Dany killed enemy soldiers an executed an enemy commander who refused to kneel. Saladin executed hundreds of people in a horrifying manner and killed women and children.


Mortis Nuntius said:
A dozen at dinner plus several thousand outside plus everyone who dies afterwards now that oaths and guest right and kinship and all the rest of the taboos that keep a medieval society function are destroyed. Tywin was wrong. He died on the fucking toilet by the son who would have probably climbed the wall if Tywin said he'd be impressed by it and acknowledge him as an individual. He raised Jaime and Cersei and nearly crushed their few virtues. He burned half the seven kingdoms down when if he'd played smart he could have bloodlessly waltzed back into power twice. Tywin was capable and smart and diligent but his arrogance and spite and cruelty poison everything he does.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And because of him, the Lannisters ultimately won the war of the five kings. Again, can't really change that fact.

Mortis Nuntius said:
If saving humanity, liberating Winterfel, avenging the Red Wedding and restoring just and humane rule to the North is nothing than you probably need to rethink your priorities. The North Remembers is only nothing if its devalued into a badass one liner Arya says before she murders someone. Its so much more than even justice and certainly more than revenge.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They won because Littlefinger convinced the Vale Knights to come in and help in order to help bring about his own selfish plans. There's nothing heroic or just about it at all. If they hadn't come in, Jon would have lost. Badly. So again, nothing to do with justice or virtues or whatever other naive crap. They won because of selfishness and ambitious greed, nothing more.

Cosar said:
And how exactly is the house going to remain in charge? What bonds does it have to the other houses? How is it not going to be tainted by the betrayals it took part in?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh hey look! Another big house that had their lord killed by Robb supports said flaying house.
 
Cosar said:
And how exactly is the house going to remain in charge? What bonds does it have to the other houses? How is it not going to be tainted by the betrayals it took part in?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hell Roose himself clearly knows he's fucked, he just doesn't care. He's killed the Starks, probably took some skin from Robb's pretty little face when nobody was looking because he could and then he waltzed home, set himself up in Winterfel and laughed as Ramsay set about dooming himself. Roose knows about the curse of Harrenhal, he knows the Northmen are plotting against him and he knows he will be dead sooner rather than later with Ramsay around. He doesn't care he had a good life doing evil and now its time to enjoy achieving what no Bolton has for thousands of years.

Of course he probably will be rudely shocked how his actual end comes and his legacy such as it is but he's smart enough to know its not a happy ending for him so he's enjoying himself. Anyone whose relying on Roose for anything at the moment is unfortunately out an ally/minion because he's past caring.
 
Polokun said:
By your own comparison, Saladin is WORSE then Dany as far as actual actions taken. Dany killed enemy soldiers an executed an enemy commander who refused to kneel. Saladin executed hundreds of people in a horrifying manner and killed women and children.



And because of him, the Lannisters ultimately won the war of the five kings. Again, can't really change that fact.


They won because Littlefinger convinced the Vale Knights to come in and help in order to help bring about his own selfish plans. There's nothing heroic or just about it at all. If they hadn't come in, Jon would have lost. Badly. So again, nothing to do with justice or virtues or whatever other naive crap. They won because of selfishness and ambitious greed, nothing more.


Oh hey look! Another big house that had their lord killed by Robb supports said flaying house.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Which was why it was a stupid move for the showwriters to have that happen when in the books its Northmen and Stannis' army about to save the day. But the knights of the Vale are fighting for Lady Sansa, and LF in his own fucked up way is also fighting for her and is clearly wondering just where he went wrong in grooming her because she's not turned against her own like he thought. So either Sansa through being stronger than expected undid the master villain's plan or there was a mix of things happening. But look at it this way. If Jon hadn't fought there then the Boltons would still rule the North. How is not doing anything going to make anything better?
 
all fictions said:
What's with your obsession with reducing the situation to "the church wants to hold onto power"? Can it just want to preserve society and avoid bloodshed?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because the Church back then was the farthest thing from something to support, no matter what angle I look at it.

Mortis Nuntius said:
Which was why it was a stupid move for the showwriters to have that happen when in the books its Northmen and Stannis' army about to save the day. But the knights of the Vale are fighting for Lady Sansa, and LF in his own fucked up way is also fighting for her and is clearly wondering just where he went wrong in grooming her because she's not turned against her own like he thought. So either Sansa through being stronger than expected undid the master villain's plan or there was a mix of things happening. But look at it this way. If Jon hadn't fought there then the Boltons would still rule the North. How is not doing anything going to make anything better?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I fully believe Stannis will lose in the books too.
 
Polokun said:
Because the Church back then was the farthest thing from something to support, no matter what angle I look at it.


I fully believe Stannis will lose in the books too.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To the Others maybe, too the guys coming at him with half their army planning to stab them in the back led by and idiot advancing on a lake of ice threatening to collapse at any moment against a disciplined army under one of the best commander's in Westeros who knows the ground and has locals in his army? Yeah that's not happening.
 
Polokun said:
By your own comparison, Saladin is WORSE then Dany as far as actual actions taken. Dany killed enemy soldiers an executed an enemy commander who refused to kneel. Saladin executed hundreds of people in a horrifying manner and killed women and children.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Saladin killed slave soldiers and their families, foreigners who Egyptians could give less of a shit about. Like, you know who these people were right? They were Sudanese slaves who become the royal guard of the Fatimids. After Saladin wrestled power from the Fatimid Caliph, the Sudanese soldiers rioted for TWO MONTHS and made living in Egypt a hell hole.

Was he right to make the decision to exterminate them and their families? To the Egyptians, he absolutely was. He brought order to Cairo by doing just that. I'm not going to defend him killing innocent civilians, because that's what they were, but that's what I mean when he gained a reputation for being defender of Egypt.

Saladin was a genius of propaganda, a mighty general that was able to muster armies in the tens of thousands from all corners of his realm, remembered fondly by not only Islamdom, but also Christendom.

Dany sent her only loyal army to die at Casterly Rock, made herself look more like her father the Mad King and still doesn't get this whole business of "right to rule".

Polokun said:
Because the Church back then was the farthest thing from something to support, no matter what angle I look at it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You know jack all about the Crusades, do you?
 
Last edited:
Polokun said:
Because the Church back then was the farthest thing from something to support, no matter what angle I look at it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's the medieval church, aka the thing that helped transition into the post Roman Empire era less violently than it could have been and preserved knowledge, not late 15th century Italian Papacy in terms of degeneracy and wordly institution.

Learn the difference please.
 
Hykal94 said:
Saladin killed slave soldiers and their families, foreigners who Egyptians could give less of a shit about. Like, you know who these people were right? They were Sudanese slaves who become the royal guard of the Fatimids. After Saladin wrestled power from the Fatimid Caliph, the Sudanese soldiers rioted for TWO MONTHS and made living in Egypt a hell hole.

Was he right to make the decision to exterminate them and their families? To the Egyptians, he absolutely was. He brought order to Cairo by doing just that. I'm not going to defend him killing innocent civilians, because that's what they were, but that's what I mean when he gained a reputation for being defender of Egypt.

Saladin was a genius of propaganda, a mighty general that was able to muster armies in the tens of thousands from all corners of his realm, remembered fondly by not only Islamdom, but also Christendom.

Dany sent her only loyal army to die at Casterly Rock, made herself look more like her father the Mad King and still doesn't get this whole business of "right to rule".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Did Dany burn a bunch of innocent women and children alive, yes or no?

I don't give a damn about propaganda purposes. You might as well state that any genocidal force can come off looking good if they sell it right. What matters here is the actual actions taken. And I'm sorry dude, by actions alone, Saladin is way worse then Dany. Plain and simple.
 
Reveen said:
Making entire nations of angry hairy people with really big weapons fucking hate your guts is not pragmatic. Ask the Romans.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ehhh, the Romans had a lot more problems with ambitious generals thinking they could make better Emperors than whomever was sitting on the throne at the time.

The German and British frontiers were generally peaceful IIRC, or at least limited to low-level conflict, for the 250-300-ish years between the first-century wars and "Huns are coming. EVERYONE PANIC!" Cultural assimilation was at least strong enough that, by the time of the migration period, the German nations that immediately bordered the Roman frontier were almost as Roman as the Romans. The various Germanic leaders whose campaigns ultimately shattered the western empire often had experience as part of the Roman army and considered themselves to be no different than the many Roman-born rebelling generals before them.

From the Roman POV, the real foreign threat during the united imperial period was always the Parthians or Persians (depending on the century).
 
Polokun said:
Did Dany burn a bunch of innocent women and children alive, yes or no?

I don't give a damn about propaganda purposes. You might as well state that any genocidal force can come off looking good if they sell it right. What matters here is the actual actions taken. And I'm sorry dude, by actions alone, Saladin is way worse then Dany. Plain and simple.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Dany's dragon ate a child. She also did not recompense victims of the slave uprising. This is clear when in Dance, she didn't punish the slaves who killed and raped their former masters, leaving a single vengeful child behind. She even remarks "the Harpy has taken another son."

Saladin left no one to challenge his power, died a hero, leaving Egypt as a superpower.

And for all your complaining, just a few posts above you went on about "might makes right". Hypocritical much?

Like here you are, complaining a fictional character's lack of achievements to a historical person's achievements and legacy. Did you ignore how I said Saladin left of legacy of jihad that the Mamluks used to fight both the Crusaders and the Mongols?

Propaganda is important BECAUSE of right to rule. I and many others stated that Dany is doing a shit job and making herself look like the Mad King with Dothraki and dragons. Stop ignoring this vital component of a military conquest.

If you're gonna argue, at least argue honestly.
 
Hykal94 said:
Propaganda is important BECAUSE of right to rule. I and many others stated that Dany is doing a shit job and making herself look like the Mad King with Dothraki and dragons. Stop ignoring this vital component of a military conquest.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
She has to conquest first. Even Aegon burned a shit ton of people and got others to bend the knee before he established stuff.
 
not sure if this was brought up before, but since the White walkers can change more than just humans, anyone else think they have other transformed animals? zombie crows for reconnaissance and swarming?
 
This was what I was talking about, saving the world and realising that is what matters.

Also. Shit. We're fucked.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
What right does Dany have? Her family got kicked off the Iron Throne because they kidnapped teenage girls, burned innocent men alive and ordered the deaths of young lords for the hell of it. She has no right at all to Westeros anymore. Its people told her line to fuck off. She's coming as an invader and justifies this through upholding her family's legacy...bleh...and through making things better for all. The first is bullshit, the second...well what's she done since she's arrived?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No I'm pretty sure her justification is/was "How dare you send assassins after me ever since my childhood and murder my husband after I finally got some happiness? I never did anything to you people that was my father. But fine if that's what it takes to be left alone then I'm going to conquer your ass." Or at least that was the spark.
​
Polokun said:
Randyl did not bend the knee. Refused to do so right to her face. Bend the knee or die has been how things work in Westeros since ever. It's a bad comparison in the first place to compare Westeros and the real world, different cultures and different ways of thinking.


Would Saladin have pardoned the king if the King was literally defiant right in his face and talked down how Saladin is a cruel, barbaric invader?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Why don't you just go read A Desert Called Peace then if you think this is how heroes who declare themselves better than their savage enemies while cruelly butchering them act? I'm sure Tom Kratman SPEHSS MURRINE can entertain you more than GoT?
 
Not sure how I feel about the revelation that the Night King is a load bearing boss for the entire Other army.

This actually hints at a very underwhelming timeline for the War for the Dawn. The Other invasion probably lasted until the First Men and Children of the Forest figured out that all they had to do to wipe out the Others was get a clear shot at the Night King with a dragonglass or dragonsteel weapon. At which point the Others were forced to turn tail and retreat back to the Land of Always Winter, probably splitting off sacrificial decoy groups as they went to keep their pursuers from zeroing in on the Night King before he could get to safety.

And even that falls apart when you consider that the Children created the Night King themselves, and so they probably had at least a fairly good idea from the beginning that killing him would have a mother-daughter effect. How were the Others even a serious threat to begin with?

The obvious answer, of course, is that the Night King should stay in his ice castle in the Land of Always Winter and send his lieutenants to lead the invasion of Westeros. The fact that he's NOT doing that, however, suggests that it isn't an option for him. Probably because he needs to be near the front line in order to spread the deep winter chill or to augment his underlings' necromancy or the like. But then, once again, the Others aren't a serious threat, because their single load bearing boss is always going to be near the front line.

Its possible that either a) Thoros was wrong about the mother-daughter effect working on Others as well as zombies, or b) the Night King is vastly less fragile than his spawn and needs not fear dragonglass arrow snipers. But I don't have much confidence in either of these things being the case.
 
Last edited:
1986ctcel said:
No I'm pretty sure her justification is/was "How dare you send assassins after me ever since my childhood and murder my husband after I finally got some happiness? I never did anything to you people that was my father. But fine if that's what it takes to be left alone then I'm going to conquer your ass." Or at least that was the spark.
​


Why don't you just go read A Desert Called Peace then if you think this is how heroes who declare themselves better than their savage enemies while cruelly butchering them act? I'm sure Tom Kratman SPEHSS MURRINE can entertain you more than GoT?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Murder her husband? Robert never sent any men after Daenerys post Dragonstone, Jon talked him out of it and it was her own bannermen who tried to turn her over to Stannis whilst Willem Darry and a few others smuggled her and Viserys out. She also as part of Viserys agenda and later her own constantly tried to convince Drogo to march on Westeros long before the first genuine assassination attempt reached her and even that was intentionally botched purely so Drogo would get pissed off and come invade Westeros and need to be stopped by heroic young Aegon.


Dany wanted Westeros, first for Viserys then for herself. To be fair to her its what she's been told she's wanted her whole life but she even gets angry when Barristan doesn't call Viserys King years after his death. She went to Slaver's Bay to gather an army for her conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. If Robert never gave the order Varys would have waited a few years before sparking off Drogo's wrath.


Daenerys thinks Robert and Ned are dogs for deposing her father. She isn't interested in learning why there was a rebellion or what exactly went down in her early years she wants revenge and her rightful place. Even after Slaver's Bay in the books there is no real mention of "breaking the wheel" for Westerosi who tbh she doesn't know at all. The major point of her arc is that she wants to help people but can't quite see how to do it without bloodshed and then she gives up on both as hopeless so seeks to bring Fire and Blood to her enemies. The hope is that (probably after meeting like minded people or burning half a million people to death she realises she was wrong and that her place isn't on the Iron Throne or restoring House Targaryen but to free the slaves and burn away the Others.

Daenerys has a lot of baggage as Valyria's heiress somewhere along the line she will need to face that down and not just burn away her enemies and call the smoking husk leftover her kingdom.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
Murder her husband? Robert never sent any men after Daenerys post Dragonstone, Jon talked him out of it and it was her own bannermen who tried to turn her over to Stannis whilst Willem Darry and a few others smuggled her and Viserys out. She also as part of Viserys agenda and later her own constantly tried to convince Drogo to march on Westeros long before the first genuine assassination attempt reached her and even that was intentionally botched purely so Drogo would get pissed off and come invade Westeros and need to be stopped by heroic young Aegon.


Dany wanted Westeros, first for Viserys then for herself. To be fair to her its what she's been told she's wanted her whole life but she even gets angry when Barristan doesn't call Viserys King years after his death. She went to Slaver's Bay to gather an army for her conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. If Robert never gave the order Varys would have waited a few years before sparking off Drogo's wrath.


Daenerys thinks Robert and Ned are dogs for deposing her father. She isn't interested in learning why there was a rebellion or what exactly went down in her early years she wants revenge and her rightful place. Even after Slaver's Bay in the books there is no real mention of "breaking the wheel" for Westerosi who tbh she doesn't know at all. The major point of her arc is that she wants to help people but can't quite see how to do it without bloodshed and then she gives up on both as hopeless so seeks to bring Fire and Blood to her enemies. The hope is that (probably after meeting like minded people or burning half a million people to death she realises she was wrong and that her place isn't on the Iron Throne or restoring House Targaryen but to free the slaves and burn away the Others.

Daenerys has a lot of baggage as Valyria's heiress somewhere along the line she will need to face that down and not just burn away her enemies and call the smoking husk leftover her kingdom.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Huh I thought I remembered something about Robert sending assassin's every year as a "birthday present"?
 
1986ctcel said:
Huh I thought I remembered something about Robert sending assassin's every year as a "birthday present"?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not in the books at least. In the show as far as I recall it was the new development of the marriage that made him send the assassins. Daenerys and Viserys thought they were constantly the target but given their lack of means and protection its hard to see anyone who really cared to see them die with anything in the way of resources not succeeding.
 
Last edited:
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top