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Game of Thrones Season 7

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  • Staff Post
    • this is my angry modbanner Quite frankly, this is ridiculous. This thread's managed to devolve into @Polokun vs the rest of the thread.

    That's not a good thing.

    That's a very bad thing.

    So here's what's happening.

    @Polokun is getting a week-long threadban and 25 points for really horrific bad-faith debating and abuse of the ratings system. Brush up on your debating skills. Do not abuse the ratings system. Only warning.

    @Hykal94 can take 25 points in a violation of rule 3 for this post here. That's sniping. We do not approve of sniping.

    The rest of you all? In the future? Stop dogpiling. I've said this already. Some people like the show, and that's okay. Some people don't like the show, and that's okay.

    What's not okay is when you're breaking the rules. Don't break them. The rules, that is. Hint, hint.

    Alright thread unlock, back to your regular business, you all have fun now.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Ohhh. I just had a thought, regarding Cersei declaring herself queen. You know, with the Baratheons basically eradicated, who would be next in line for the throne? The Baratheons got their legitimation from a Targaryen that had married into their House; Robert's, Stannis' and Renly's grandmother was Rhaella Targaryen, daughter of King Aegon V (Maester Aemon's younger brother). So with the Targaryen mainline (i.e., Dany) exempt from succession, we have to go back one generation to find other Targaryen ladies who have married into other houses.

    King Aegon V (and Master Aemon) also had two sisters, and Aemon indicates on his trip to Oldtown that both had children. We don't know with whom, though. However, it is also stated in the books that House Tarth has been connected to the Targaryens by marriage, and those are the only two historical Targaryens where this could have happened.

    So that means... by blood, it could well be that that the legitimate successor to the Baratheon claim on the Iron Throne is Lord Selwyn Tarth, the Evenstar, the father of Brienne.

    Of course, mind, this is all based on book series stuff not ever mentioned in the series ;) Still, it makes for a nice image - Brienne Tarth, Brienne the Beauty, as Crown Princess of the Seven Kingdoms ;)
     
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    Susano said:
    It's also funny how the Euron and Sand Snakes plots ended in... literally nothing? They simply cancelled each other out in a very inglorious way. Why did we we even have the Iron Islander Kingsmoot? Euron gets elected in order to wreck the Sand Snakes, Yara and Theon, and then just disappears from the story.
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    He apparently shows up again in the finale when everyone's meeting with Cersei in the Dragonpit for Wight show'n tell. He asks Jon if Wights can swim, he says no, then declares the White Walkers not his problem and fucks off to the Iron Isles.
    In reality he's going to Essos to ferry over Aegon and Jon Connington the Golden Company because the Iron Bank gave Cersei a loan to get the twenty thousand greatest soldiers in the world.
     
    Nobody said:
    He apparently shows up again in the finale when everyone's meeting with Cersei in the Dragonpit for Wight show'n tell. He asks Jon if Wights can swim, he says no, then declares the White Walkers not his problem and fucks off to the Iron Isles.
    In reality he's going to Essos to ferry over Aegon and Jon Connington the Golden Company because the Iron Bank gave Cersei a loan to get the twenty thousand greatest soldiers in the world.
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    I wish they'd just slap on the last 6 or so episodes to this season so we don't have to wait a year for this already dragged out finish.
     
    Daenerys won't say it, but I think she's giving serious thought to just abolishing the position of Lord Protector. At the risk of redundancy I think it's apparent that Westeros' society is utterly dysfunctional and the prevailing structure is incapable of adequately addressing the problems of its people from top to bottom. Everyone is really angry and really well armed and these are typically the symptoms of a society on the precipice of a major shift in its structure. Certainly things cannot go back to the way they were in Westeros, and Daenerys is in the ideal position to enable Westeros' transition away from a feudal society toward an organized one. In order for this to happen the Iron Throne needs to be reduced, perhaps eliminated entirely.

    As the risk of sounding like an American, right away Westeros could form a limited government that could extend voting or representative privileges to its upper houses. The Wardens could easily become elected governors with limited terms and with the Crown's (or some other executive's) power to resolve their disputes checked by a constitution. A proto-Republic would promote stability and safety and those are the pillars of a society that can eventually enable greater achievements such as mass education, science, and quality of life.

    Certainly Daenerys cannot be expected to come out and say it right now, they've got some big fish to fry. Cersei will not find such an idea moving, she'd probably find it repulsive to her paranoid, absolutist sensibilities. It is entirely moot as long as the Night King is planning on marching south. If Daenerys is listening though, and has really learned a thing or two in her travels, the conclusion seems obvious.
     
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    DocHawkeye said:
    As the risk of sounding like an American, right away Westeros could form a limited government that could extend voting or representative privileges to its upper houses. The Wardens could easily become elected governors with limited terms and with the Crown's (or some other executive's) power to resolve their disputes checked by a constitution. A proto-Republic would promote stability and safety and those are the pillars of a society that can eventually enable greater achievements such as mass education, science, and quality of life.
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    Or, like, England post-Magna Carta.
     
    Establish in a democracy of any form is ridiculous for the setting, the system being basically untouched except deaths at the higher levels that could be shrugged off if the writers didn't get rid of everyone to replace them for their own convenience and IMO the suggestion is purely a way for the writers to continue making Saint Tyrion look good to the audience since he disdains the idea in the books.
     
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    DocHawkeye said:
    Certainly things cannot go back to the way they were in Westeros,
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    Why not? We've just seen Magical!War of the Roses, and hey, guess what, the War of the Roses ended without England being turned into a Republic. Every holdfast in the realm is still held by a lord. You have the Lord Paramounts of the single regions, you have lords sworn to those, then lesser lords or landed knights sworn to those and so on. The War has played hell on the upper echelons of nobility, but the system is still there. No crisis of it at all. And even with three dragons you can't simply root out that system.
     
    all fictions said:
    Or, like, England post-Magna Carta.
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    We had our most powerful and tyrannical monarchs after the Magna Carta. Its the most overrated document in history.

    But tbh I think we all saw how badly things went in Meereen when Daenerys tried to change that society overnight. Its not that she shouldn't have done it but that there will be instability and blow back and right now Westeros isn't going to survive a top to bottom civil war. The best Daenerys can do as a monarch isn't try and make democracy happen in a world where its only practitioners are slavers and everyone who can read or otherwise run a country believe in the natural order more or less but to rule well, to stop people being eaten by ice zombies, bring back Aegon's reforms and make sure that those she grants her patronage and power to are men and women who share her vision or generally will use that power responsibly. It won't fall to one person to save Westeros by turning it into 21st century America somehow but rather a whole lot of people turning it into the ideal promised in the songs with justice and peace and honour.

    In the books the seven kingdoms might not exist, they might go to a bastard, they might end up with Brienne or even bloody Jaime somehow. GRRM's on record as saying that succession really ends up being whoever is in the right place at the right time with the right luck some times and its been a running theme that all this fighting over succession and rights and laws are distractions from the real injustices that need to be stopped. I think we're going to see some more responsible rulers be they kings and queens, lords and ladies or whoever is still breathing and can hold people together who are much more interested in what matters rather than who is in charge or wearing which headpiece.
     
    DocHawkeye said:
    Certainly things cannot go back to the way they were in Westeros, and Daenerys is in the ideal position to enable Westeros' transition away from a feudal society toward an organized one.
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    There are some serious problems with this concept.

    1. Feudalism was a system that existed as a response to a collapse of centralized government and infrastructure, forcing a need for local warlords to take over the duties of protecting territory against invaders. Westeros though never had a really centralized situation in the first place. The biggest infrastructure feature in all of Westeros is the Kingsroad, which is mostly a fucking dirt path.

    2. Westeros is too much of a bag of cats to handle a proto-republic. Oaths of fealty from noble houses to larger noble houses and the continuity of rulership in the great houses keeps as much stability as you're going to get. Divesting power from noble lines to elected positions is gonna make the country go full fucking Skaven.

    3. Mass education, science, and quality of life require just as much economic prosperity as it does a more liberal system of government. Westeros wasn't really great except in small pockets in the first place, and the coming winter is going to bend the continent and fuck it raw even without the ice zombies.

    What's more likely to happen is the Iron Throne as a government just dissolving on it's own. The Seven Kingdoms go back to being Seven-ish Kingdoms, with whoever actually sitting on the Iron Throne only keeping control over the crown lands. and frankly, that's probably for the best. Most of the armies of the continent are going to be spent by the end of everything, and trying to hold together a kingdom is going to be unmanageable even with dragons. Daenaerys would be better off just hunkering down and building up strength in the Crownlands until such a time that she can gain allies and power.

    But that's going to be tough. Because the Vale and Dorne (whoever ends up ruling it) are going to be in pretty good positions compared to every other kingdom, and I wouldn't be surprised if they start eying conquest down the line. SWEETROBIN KING!
     
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    Reveen said:
    2. Westeros is too much of a bag of cats to handle a proto-republic. Oaths of fealty from noble houses to larger noble houses and the continuity of rulership in the great houses keeps as much stability as you're going to get. Divesting power from noble lines to elected positions is gonna make the country go full fucking Skaven.
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    An Exalt could modernize and culturally unify Westeros in a couple centuries easily... but they're Exalted, and the system they set up would likely be one that promptly collapses once they're removed.

    Reveen said:
    3. Mass education, science, and quality of life require just as much economic prosperity as it does a more liberal system of government. Westeros wasn't really great except in small pockets in the first place, and the coming winter is going to bend the continent and fuck it raw even without the ice zombies.
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    To be fair, it's not unlikely that the ice zombies are the cause of the coming winter's severity and not just an aggravating factor. If that's true, then all you have to do is wipe out the Walkers and the seasons will reset to an Earthlike yearly cycle.
     
    Reveen said:
    But that's going to be tough. Because the Vale and Dorne (whoever ends up ruling it) are going to be in pretty good positions compared to every other kingdom, and I wouldn't be surprised if they start eying conquest down the line. SWEETROBIN KING!
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    Dorne is literally just desert. They fight a mean guerilla war, but are shit outside of their home territory, because they're the least populated of all kingdoms. Also, what with the Sand Snakes coup d'etat, they will have enough internal problems. Same for the Vale, actually - young Lord Robin is not a stable ruler, and Petyr off to do whatever in the North. Expect succession problems and internal dissent there.

    As I see it, the North and the Riverlands are utterly, totally boned, their fields and keeps devastated and all their food stores depleted due to the war, right before winter. All other regions have been largely untouched by war, and should have full stores, though many of them will face political instability (Houses Tyrell and Baratheon have been effectively wiped out, after all). With the Dragons and her troops, Dany could just re-conquer the continent, do Aegon all over, but that depends on how the invasion of the Others plays out, of course.
     
    Mortis Nuntius said:
    We had our most powerful and tyrannical monarchs after the Magna Carta.
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    Talking about the Tudors or Charles I?
    SwiftRosenthal said:
    To be fair, it's not unlikely that the ice zombies are the cause of the coming winter's severity and not just an aggravating factor. If that's true, then all you have to do is wipe out the Walkers and the seasons will reset to an Earthlike yearly cycle.
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    Not really. It seems implied the seasons are also related to the state of the kingdoms, like how there were years of Summer until Robert's death, at which point Westeros entered Fall.
     
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    Mortis Nuntius said:
    But tbh I think we all saw how badly things went in Meereen when Daenerys tried to change that society overnight. Its not that she shouldn't have done it but that there will be instability and blow back and right now Westeros isn't going to survive a top to bottom civil war.
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    Westeros has already had a Civil War. Most of the people who would've stood in Daenerys' way are dead, or near to it. Most of the great houses are expended and even Cersei is out of reserves. If she can survive the Night King her legitimacy will be well earned and probably unchallenged by virtue of last one standing. So what to do with it?

    In the books the seven kingdoms might not exist, they might go to a bastard, they might end up with Brienne or even bloody Jaime somehow. GRRM's on record as saying that succession really ends up being whoever is in the right place at the right time with the right luck some times and its been a running theme that all this fighting over succession and rights and laws are distractions from the real injustices that need to be stopped. I think we're going to see some more responsible rulers be they kings and queens, lords and ladies or whoever is still breathing and can hold people together who are much more interested in what matters rather than who is in charge or wearing which headpiece.
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    Yeah but who replaces them? When the responcible leaders expire what system, what assurances do they leave behind? A generation of enlightened rulers cannot help but see that. Arguably all Aegon achieved was to establish a Kingdom that put off its unresolved issues in class dysmorphia for 300 years. Is that all Danaerys' is planning on achieving when her and Tyrion speak of a "better world"?
     
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    all fictions said:
    Talking about the Tudors or Charles I?

    Not really. It seems implied the season are also related to the state of the kingdoms, like how there were years of Summer until Robert's death, at which point Westeros entered Fall.
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    Why not both?

    But seriously as kings go John wasn't even particularly tyranical or powerful, in fact he was more unlucky, disliked and unusually for an English King bad at fighting wars.
     
    DocHawkeye said:
    Westeros has already had a Civil War. Most of the people who would've stood in Daenerys' way are dead, or near to it. Most of the great houses are expended and even Cersei is out of reserves.



    Yeah but who replaces them? When the responcible leaders expire what system, what assurances do they leave behind? A generation of enlightened rulers cannot help but see that. Arguably all Aegon achieved was to establish a Kingdom that put off its unresolved issues in class dysmorphia for 300 years. Is that all Danaerys' is planning on achieving when her and Tyrion speak of a "better world"?
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    No. They aren't. Literally tens of thousands of people stand to lose from this, every Lord, every Landed knight, their sons, their immediate retainers all of them. Daenerys would have no support base at all among the nobility and that is a lot larger than the great houses.
     
    DocHawkeye said:
    Westeros has already had a Civil War. Most of the people who would've stood in Daenerys' way are dead, or near to it. Most of the great houses are expended and even Cersei is out of reserves.
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    Every little bit of land in Westeros is controlled by lords or landed knights. See, that is the difference between Aegon and Daenarys: Aegon merely wanted to conquer, so if the former lords bent the knee to him as lords, that was good enough for him. That wasn't a change of systems, it was merely the installation of a new overlord, while all lords were kept as his vasalls. And yes, nobody realistically could stop Dany from doing the same. But to truly change the system, Daenarys would have to root every single lord of the realm. She would have the entire realm standing against her.
     
    The whole continent has been fighting for decades. Lower end here I think we're looking at a trauma equivalent to the Thirty Years War.
     
    For decades? Hasn't it been, like, 5 years, top? (the books are even less time, like 3 years give or take)
     
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    DocHawkeye said:
    The whole continent has been fighting for decades. Lower end here I think we're looking at a trauma equivalent to the Thirty Years War.
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    No it hasn't. Baelon's rebellion lasted a few months. Otherwise Robert's reign was peaceful.
    Aerys reign until the year long rebellion which saw like four battles and one sack saw some banditry and nothing else particularly noteworthy and his father's rule was similarly peaceful save for a single campaign on foreign shores. The war of the Five Kings was 2 years in the books and 4 in the show. Also the war so far has briefly touched the Westerlands and King's Landing and otherwise been centred in the Riverlands and the North. That's part of why in the books Euron and Aegon are important, between them and Daenerys they are going to burn down the Southern kingdoms which have been largely untouched so far.


    The thirty years war was far more prolonged and devastating, nowhere except the Riverlands can compare and even then the Riverlands are probably better off for the moment.
     
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