Game of Thrones Season 7
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
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Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
Well not dividing her forces to take Casterly Rock on the wrong side of Westeros or leaving the Tyrells alone to stand against the Lannisters or showing up too late to do anything. Even if avoiding the battle is too much to ask no one forced her to demand loyalty or death. No one forced her to burn them alive.
What did they do to the Riverlands that the Riverlord and Northmen did not do as well? Read the books the Stark/Tully side were burning their own fields, shoving smallfolk from the protection of Riverrun, raiding the Westerlands. What gets Cersei in hot water in the first place is the rise of the Sparrows after years of chaotic bloodshed with no law and even less order. The smallfolk are getting crushed by literally everyone, the Tyrells and Stormlords were starving a city of five hundred thousand and now Daenerys burns that city's food supply, massacres thousands of brave men and executes defenceless prisoners.
Dany can say that she will fix things once she is in a position of power but by that logic everyone would be better off if no one fought for the Iron Throne in the first place. "War is hell" can be oversimplified but its definitely a theme in ASOIAF that the war is destroying Westeros and that the heroes' need to actually fight for justice and peace and prevent the end of the world. Not sit their asses on a throne or gain bloody vengeance for past crimes.
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
Coulda still send them to the Wall. Or at least keep him as ransom. Dany should perhaps taken a page from Aegon the Conqueror and use both hard power and soft power to achieve her goals.
And this neglects my point how?
Stannis has loyal men. The Battle of Blackwater showed that forcing people to follow him out of fear doesn't work, it's why his brother's former vassals instantly turned on him when they can. You don't suddenly refurbished a good chunk of the Wall via fear alone.
Robb Stark literally did the same thing when he sent his army to raid, ravage and rape a good chunk of the Westerlands. If there's one thing the books do right, it's that armies are destructive forces no matter how "good" your cause may be. Only the most charismatic and disciplined of generals can reduce the pillaging of settlements.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Taking Casterly Rock was a smart tactical move. Anyone would have done the same. Tyrion just didn't know that not only had the place lost it's gold value, but that the bulk of the forces would be sent down to take down Highgarden while also emptying the stores of the Rock to make it next to impossible to last in a siege.
She destroyed her enemies supply line, won a fierce battle against Lannister soldiers and executed stubborn assholes who'd rather die for a queen who murders their rightful queen AND liege lord.
Pretty sure that's what Jon is trying to do to stop the Night King.
Dany had every right and position to execute Randyl Tarly. Any other lord of Westeros would have executed him too for refusing to bend the knee.
- Location
- Mons Regius
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, but this is GoT. We got a bastardization of Ellaria Sand's character and Septon Meribald was nowhere to be seen, so those two themes might as well not exist within the show
(am I bitter? Yes, I am)
By fighting against Ramsay Bolton and being crowned King in the North? Seems a bit contrary to what you quoted
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It would be wiser for Dany to ransom her noble prisoner. Saladin did this, the Kings of Jerusalem did this, just about every king does this, like ransoming is one of the most profitable ways to gain money, something Dany could always use.
Even if she decided to execute Randy Tarly, did she have to use her dragon to do it? Here is Mother of Dragons saying "I'm not like Cersei" and boom, burned the Tarlys not unlike how the Mad King burned the Starks. Oh wow, this isn't as bad as Cersei, IT'S WORSE.
This is one giant idiotic PR move. Dany would do well to learn from the likes of Saladin, who was not only a competent commander, but a master propagandist. Or to use an in-universe figure, Baelor the Blessed but without the religious idiocy.
It was not a smart tactical move but a dumb strategic move as well. How does then, Dany plan to have her Unsullied who can never be replenished, hold Casterly Rock forever? How can she expect her Unsullied to gather whatever's money left in the Rock and export it back to Dragonstone? Her Unsullied is tiny and in the event she decides to hire more sellswords, then isn't that just cutting in their limited money supply?
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
Strategy not tactics.
It sent her best soldiers around a continent hundreds of miles from the enemy capital to take a massive fortress manned by thousands of men. It took no account of enemy fleets or the fact that it all hinged on a secret passageway that Tyrion built that goes under the gatehouse but not the entire Rock which could well have plenty of places to fall back to. It could have worked but equally it could have just got the Unsullied slaughtered. Hell if they ran into Euron's fleet early then it would be thousands of men killed for no reason.
They should have put the capital under siege at once. Casterly Rock was irrelevant if Cersei and Jaime are stuck in the capital. If they win in the East then nothing in the West matters, they could take it later with greater forces against a weakened defence. If they'd sent those same men against King's Landing or to join the Tyrells it would have made a serious difference. If there is a strong potential of losing large numbers of men you need to consider whether or not they could be used elsewhere for better result or if not using them at all benefits you more.
What if Dany got her best troops slaughtered at the Rock at the same time she got the Dornish and Greyjoys wiped out? She'd be left with the Tyrells (minus their best soldier commanded by an old woman who seems to hold her own soldiers in contempt) and the Dothraki against a Lannister army free to reinforce from the Westerlands and Iron Islands and move to mop up the Tyrells or defend the capital. As is the Lannisters decided knocking out the Tyrells was worth more but if they had the option then they should have just used the Iron fleet.
What right does Dany have? Her family got kicked off the Iron Throne because they kidnapped teenage girls, burned innocent men alive and ordered the deaths of young lords for the hell of it. She has no right at all to Westeros anymore. Its people told her line to fuck off. She's coming as an invader and justifies this through upholding her family's legacy...bleh...and through making things better for all. The first is bullshit, the second...well what's she done since she's arrived?
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Polokun
Dragonheart
What should he do instead? Please, illuminate exactly how he could build an army to fight the undead army without fighting anyone else.By fighting against Ramsay Bolton and being crowned King in the North? Seems a bit contrary to what you quoted
Cersei blew up THE GREAT SEPT with who knows how many lords, ladies and commonfolk in the blast. And all because she's a petty, selfish bitch. Rag on Dany as much as you like, but she is NOT worse then Cersei.
Did Saladin and his army NEVER kill anyone? At all? If not, then you're acting from a VERY false equivalence.
It was not a dumb tactical move. It's literally taking the home castle that belongs to her enemy's family. You seem to be operating under the assumption that Casterly Rock having zero value was known to everyone.
And what has Cersei done that makes her so much better?
You're being a major hypocrite and unfair to think Dany is doing worse then this.
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
What should he do instead? Please, illuminate exactly how he could build an army to fight the undead army without fighting anyone else.
Cersei blew up THE GREAT SEPT with who knows how many lords, ladies and commonfolk in the blast. And all because she's a petty, selfish bitch. Rag on Dany as much as you like, but she is NOT worse then Cersei.
Did Saladin and his army NEVER kill anyone? At all? If not, then you're acting from a VERY false equivalence.
It was not a dumb tactical move. It's literally taking the home castle that belongs to her enemy's family. You seem to be operating under the assumption that Casterly Rock having zero value was known to everyone.
And what has Cersei done that makes her so much better?
You're being a major hypocrite and unfair to think Dany is doing worse then this.
You realise book Dany is probably going to blow up King's Landing right? And show Dany was increasingly thinking about attacking King's Landing with dragons and needed to be talked out of it right?
Cersei is worse than Dany for the moment but that could have changed and could well still change before the end. But more importantly Dany setting Cersei as her bar already disqualifies her. Her only justification for doing any of this is that she will change things for the better. Not just be less shit whilst still being a murdering tyrant. Given what we know of the Dothraki and how they have just ridden across Westeros Dany has already probably killed more people than Cersei did in the Sept. She also burned thousands of men alive, murdered prisoners and all this as the alternative to her original plan of attacking King's Landing.
She's managed to almost throw away the war she had all the advantages in and she is critically blind to how she is perceived in Westeros.
Polokun
Dragonheart
She killed enemy soldiers.
That's what you DO in battles.
Stop arguing in bad faith.
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
Saladin effectively used the call of jihad and religious rhetoric to convince his allies of his just cause as well as made alliances with other non-Muslims for the sole purpose of fighting the Crusaders. Saladin was a genius who won the hearts of his people as well as his enemies, considered a symbol of chivalry to Western Europe despite not having such culture in his own homeland.
Dany meanwhile, burned people alive with her dragon and did absolutely nothing to improve her image as saviour of Westeros. It's not false equivalency, it's pointing out how a veteran general won hearts and minds while Dany does jack shit to do any of that. The Mamluks, who ARE foreigners to many Egyptians, used their status symbol of Defender of Islam and Egypt against the Crusaders and the Mongols to properly integrate into Egyptian society. They understood right to rule. They understood propaganda.
Dany, or more accurately D&D, does not seem to understand any of that.
It's not about Cersei being worse, it's about Dany doing nothing to convince people she's better than Cersei. That's the important difference.
Yes, and than being besieged by Euron's Teleporting Armada with no hope of being relieved. Great move there, Dany. Not only do you have no gold, you also don't have your Unsullied. Grand idea. Truly a move that would make Aegon the Conqueror roll in his grave.
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
She murdered prisoners.
That's what you DO to lose the Iron Throne.
Have you being paying attention at all to why House Targaryen fell the first time or why Dany claims it will go differently now?
EDIT: I'm not arguing in bad faith. I'm pointing out Daenerys comes from a line of mad tyrants who burned the wrong people alive and got destroyed for it. She comes to Westeros claiming to be fighting for its people and then sets foreign savages on them and burns its people for not kneeling before her.
She's the breaker of chains yet she thinks so long as she kills everyone rather than putting them in chains its fine. She literally says she's not offering mercy or proportionate punishment because people would take her up on it.
Dany is walking a thin line and you seem completely ignorant on why acting like the bad guy and bringing misery and death to thousands but saying nice things about it doesn't make you the good guy. It makes you a road builder with good intentions.
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Olenna did however and kept quiet for reasons.
- Location
- Mons Regius
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Maybe, but you can admit that:
Jon did those things Mortis is criticizing, unless you wish to tell me he rode against Ramsay purely out of altruistic reasons, or that he really needed to sit on a throne to have armies againts the White Walkers.
Polokun
Dragonheart
Both sides ultimately were about fighting and killing each other because of religion. Talk praise of Saladin as much as you like, him and his armies obviously had to kill Crusaders. You can't get around that simple fact, they had to kill enemy soldiers to win. Which is what Dany did.
How many prisoners did Cersei and Joffrey have killed?
I consider Dany leagues above Cersei because at least Dany listens to people and actually feels guilt when she does bad things.
The reality of the situation is this, you have to choose between Dany and Cersei. And in the end, I'd choose Dany a million times over before I ever picked Cersei. That's my opinion on the matter and I'm firm on that point.
So you're saying Jon should have just returned Sansa to Ramsey as a gesture to get his help? Please do tell how well that would go.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
That scene.
Just...that whole scene.
*Dragon just burned half my army*
*Arrows bounced off it like raindrops*
*Ballista bolt hampering it about as much as a toothpick in a man's shoulder*
Think Jaimie, THINK!
"Somebody throw me a lance, I got this team."
"Jaimie this is suicide!"
"It's all right, Bron. I'm gonna use my strong hand."
Even Drogon just stares at him with the most "Seriously, dude? Seriously? You're seriously doing this?" Look I've ever seen on a giant fire-breathing lizard.
- Location
- Mons Regius
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm pointing out an irony here, dude.
- Location
- The Final Frontier
Breakout character from this episode:
The Night King's squire, handing out spears. Dude knew what he liked to do.
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
Too many. But that's on Robb or Stannis or Renly or whoever to stop. You know the Westerosi supported by Westerosi fighting other Westerosi over who rules Westeros. Dany shows up late and decides she's going to be Queen, reopens all the old wounds kills thousands of people and acts like a tyrant. So what if she's better than Cersei? That describes almost everyone up to and including Tywin and Roose.
But say Dany showed up and it was Stannis or Tommen or Renly or old Robert on the throne. She'd still fight because she thinks its hers. She'd still do everything she's done because that's still on her. Cersei did not make her do anything, no one did, people advised against doing certain things and she listens sometimes and other times she doesn't. She's the Queen or so she says. The buck stops with her. Dany would say what makes her different and gives her the right to undo history is that she would be better, rule more kindly, see justice done for all. Yet her actions are just more of the same.
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Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
He was aiming for Daenerys. TBF if it had worked that's the war done. With Dany gone no one can ride the Dragons, no one commands the Dothraki who would rapidly drive all the South into Cersei's arms to protect them and nobody can claim to have a better claim to the throne.
Jaime had the choice to abandon his men or fight and die, once you've decided you're going to die fighting you might as well pick the target that makes it a war winning sacrifice.
Polokun
Dragonheart
She did listen. Listening to Tyrion was literally the FIRST thing she did when she got back to Westeros. And what happened?
She lost two of her Great House allies and part of her army took a Castle that was actually worthless.
If she was going to still be a threat, she needed to hand down a curb stomp on the other side. Or would you have preferred if he just sent her Dothraki out to fight on their own? Why bother losing more of your own troops just to look better at the risk of losing? What general would EVER support that move?
Still, Tyrion was right in calling him a "fucking idiot".
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
That. Is. Not. The. Point.
The point is Dany does not win hearts and minds. Saladin did. Dany talks about being saviour of Westeros and convinces no one. Saladin did become saviour of Egypt and greatly diminished Crusader forces. Dany executed important nobles. Saladin pardoned the literal king of Jerusalem.
Dany? Dany burned one of the most important lords in Westeros. Just like her father.
Cersei may be a madwoman, but she's a madwoman that Westeros understands. To the average Westerosi, Dany is a savage barbarian with dragons and Dothraki.
Do you have the barest understanding of right to rule?
- Location
- West Michigan
Which of Dany's two non-Drogon dragons has become Sindragosa? I couldn't tell in the lighting.
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
And that was a terrible plan, pick better advisors or make it part of a strategy, was there a reason she stayed on Dragonstone whilst sending her armies off piecemeal? And again the Dragon battle was nasty but perhaps necessary (I say perhaps because it would have easily been avoided if she'd concentrated all her forces on the capital) but the aftermath was entirely unforced. She declared it was kneel or die and then she followed through, proving she was Aerys' heiress.
Now the reason losing those allies was her fault was that she was overall commander and had the most powerful asset in her arsenal...which she sat on in Dragonstone. She commanded neither of the fleets/armies that she intended to win the war and let herself be talked into being too valuable to risk and thus left her commanders to do their own thing hundreds of miles apart with only a vague plan and no support. Either move could have ended in disaster, that both did and Dany had to hear about it second hand is a serious mistake.
To Tyrion's eyes yes. But Tyrion was never raised to be a knight or a soldier or a warrior. To Jaime its simple, you don't abandon your men, if you're going to die die doing some hurt to the enemy. Killing Daenerys had a low chance of success but if it worked it would have won the war. You've had thousands, tens of thousands of men die for far lesser objectives.
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- Location
- The Final Frontier
the cream one, I think. Can't tell the names off hand.