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Game of Thrones Season 7

Admiral Skippy said:
In all honesty I never really saw the Dothraki as the Mongols or Huns, either socially or in terms of military tactics, even though that's a parallel people always seem to draw. (Because there were only one or at most like two groups of nomadic horse riding marauders in history, natch.) I'm not sure that George Martin even does. They seem much more similar to the Comanche to me. Who were notably less sophisticated in their uses of horses in warfare than say the Mongols (because they'd had horses as a culture for less time than England did coffee shops), but still pretty terrifying in their own right.
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The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures... Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes... seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest.
So, yes, Native Americans are definitely a source of inspiration here. But since he does also mention the Mongols, Huns, and Alans as well, I think negative comparisons to them are still pretty fair.
 
Minow said:
So, yes, Native Americans are definitely a source of inspiration here. But since he does also mention the Mongols, Huns, and Alans as well, I think negative comparisons to them are still pretty fair.
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True, but I think the entire battle in episode 7x04 makes more sense if we think of it like Native Americans attacking a wagon trail. The entire setting of where the battle took place certainly invokes Western imagery.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Mind you, the Comanche would not be some totally outside-context, tactically unbeatable threat to a medieval setting, but against GoT soldiers and military tactics I can kind of see see them being a terrible, undefeatable scourge. :V
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In Dany's first chapter in GoT, the Dothraki entered the Free Cities as "civilised" people, wearing clothes of the Free Cities but walked bow legged because you can't hide something like that. It implies that the Dothraki are pretty smart, but GRRM wasn't able to flesh them out in time. From the looks of it, I think Martin was sort of regretting his decision of writing them as they are.

Like really if you look at it, the Dothraki "military" would easily be defeated by any other real life horse peoples like the Mongols, the Huns or the Turks.
 
Hykal94 said:
In Dany's first chapter in GoT, the Dothraki entered the Free Cities as "civilised" people, wearing clothes of the Free Cities but walked bow legged because you can't hide something like that. It implies that the Dothraki are pretty smart, but GRRM wasn't able to flesh them out in time. From the looks of it, I think Martin was sort of regretting his decision of writing them as they are.

Like really if you look at it, the Dothraki "military" would easily be defeated by any other real life horse peoples like the Mongols, the Huns or the Turks.
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David Gemmell did it better.
 
Hykal94 said:
In Dany's first chapter in GoT, the Dothraki entered the Free Cities as "civilised" people, wearing clothes of the Free Cities but walked bow legged because you can't hide something like that. It implies that the Dothraki are pretty smart, but GRRM wasn't able to flesh them out in time. From the looks of it, I think Martin was sort of regretting his decision of writing them as they are.

Like really if you look at it, the Dothraki "military" would easily be defeated by any other real life horse peoples like the Mongols, the Huns or the Turks.
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I saw Dany's journey with the Dothraki to be in some ways a critical look at the type of Dances with Wolves, Avatar, Last Samurai story. At the beginning, she is told by her brother the Dothraki are savages and her wedding to Khal Drogo shows how violent and brutal they can be. But as she spends more time with them learning their language and their customs she begins to connect with them. Helped by the fact that Khal Drogo is much less of a savage than he first appeared. The twist comes at the end when she witnesses the Dothraki raid and pillage Mirra Maz Durr's village. The message I got was that people can be both. That they can be violent and brutal but also complex and nuanced and that trying to whitewash other cultures can be as bad as dismissing them.
 
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Hykal94 said:
What are you, an extra on GoT? :p

Game of Thrones: where people wear leather into battle, not wear helmets into battle, and shields are rarer than Valyrian swords. :V

Anyway, the best part about episode 3 is undoubtedly Jon and Tyrion meeting again. Also this scene:


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They have plate, A shield is just extra weight and a wasted arm. GRRM even says that he kept shields in the setting for the heraldry and because he thought they were cool even if in a lot of places they wouldn't make sense with the late Medieval armour a lot of sides wear.

Although there were thousands of men with shields at the Battle of the Bastards and the Field of Fire ii. Which is less accurate but I guess if people were complaining about the lack of shields.


I want my axes and maces and war hammers and halbards damn it.
 
Polokun said:
Pretty sure it's been maintained for MANY seasons now that Cersei is in fact that incompetent.


Aegon's strategy can be summed up as: "Goad their armies to follow my small forces into a specific area, tell dragons to burn them all when in position."

ooooh, such in-depth strategy and tactics worthy of Sun Tzu himself!
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Sun Tzu would definitely approve given his book can basically be summarised as "keep it simple dipshit and do what every half competent commander would immediately think to do." Its all about guiding principles.

He'd very much approve of Aegon doing what worked whilst focussing as much on the politics, logistics and natural defences kindly offered to him by the Kings and Queens he spent years getting to know and researching. Aegon did a lot more than just burn people alive, he made allies wherever he went, converted to the local religion, got legal experts to follow him around to each Kingdom and judged the people there as their previous King would have done and had his wives arrange a series of dynastic matches across his Kingdom as well as founding a major city that soon grew to half a million people.


Aegon was very impressive. Visenya is just awesome and Rhaenys sounds like she was quite impressive but had the misfortune of being around at the same time as Aegon and Visenya and dying sooner.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
They have plate, A shield is just extra weight and a wasted arm. GRRM even says that he kept shields in the setting for the heraldry and because he thought they were cool even if in a lot of places they wouldn't make sense with the late Medieval armour a lot of sides wear.
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I don't recall where GRRM said it, but I believe he said the armour used by people in the books look more mid-14th century rather than late 15th century. He gave quite the artistic freedom to artists to draw armour however they want, but artists decide full plate looks cooler most of the time.

Also, currently reading Dance of Dragons, heraldry is presented 90% of the time on flags instead of shields.
 
Hykal94 said:
I don't recall where GRRM said it, but I believe he said the armour used by people in the books look more mid-14th century rather than late 15th century. He gave quite the artistic freedom to artists to draw armour however they want, but artists decide full plate looks cooler most of the time.

Also, currently reading Dance of Dragons, heraldry is presented 90% of the time on flags instead of shields.
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He did say that too. I think the most recent thing I read on all that was that in poorer places like the North Mail is still in use but to the South in the Reach and Westerlands Plate is far more common amongst at least the wealthy. Everyone uses shields either because they wear mail or because GRRM likes shields. I suppose it could just be that shields are common enough that they are just considered part of what makes a knight so even those who don't need them keep them around.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
He did say that too. I think the most recent thing I read on all that was that in poorer places like the North Mail is still in use but to the South in the Reach and Westerlands Plate is far more common amongst at least the wealthy. Everyone uses shields either because they wear mail or because GRRM likes shields. I suppose it could just be that shields are common enough that they are just considered part of what makes a knight so even those who don't need them keep them around.
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I don't mind how many "poorer" kingdoms are still using mail. Hell, we're still using mail. Mail's great. It would also make sense because not every knight is the knight of an important lord and they're plenty of hedge knights walking around with an old horse and rusty mail.
 
Skimming the thread GRRM's own comments on succession law are basically that it sometimes comes down to precedent and old decrees but often whoever is in the right place at the right time with the right backers gets the throne. There are a number of different systems but plenty of times its come down to bloodshed. So Jon and Dany and Cersei are King and Queen of wherever they're armies and loyal supporters happen to be. Because everyone (but Cersei) claims to have the law on their side and as usual when people with armies disagree there isn't much else too it.
 
My problem with the latest episode (and its not really a problem since the books are really setting this up as well but with a higher purpose) is Danaerys listens to people's advice and then overules them and does what she thinks best. This worked great in Slaver's bay but in Westeros the daughter of the mad King just burned thousands of men alive at the head of an army of rapist, slaving, savages who gleefully slaughter fleeing men and are probably stripping the countryside bare and then murders a man and his son who accuse her of being a foreign invader.

She's Aerys' fucking daughter. Burning her enemies alive when they are defenceless is a horrific way to kill someone but now she expects all those hundreds of men she just threatened to do the same to to take her word for it that she's going to change things for the better and that Cersei was lying when she called her a foreign conqueror who wanted to burn down Westeros and was willing to use foreign barbarians to do it.

Morals aside being a King or Queen is 60% about image. Dany's image is Aerys' heir at the moment. As long as she has dragons fine but what if she loses a dragon? Where does she plan to sleep at night with who guarding her? Does she expect these men to fight for her? The first major setback she suffers or the months she will be spending in the North will see her reign thrive or collapse entirely on how much loyalty she generates. So far she's lost every battle not won by treachery or mass murder/use of foreign cut throats. If she loses her Draconic edge or the Dothraki go home how long before the seven kingdoms rise up?

Now none of that matters because we know where the story is going but Daenerys doesn't really know that Iron Throne won't matter in the end, she means to sit on it and she was given a test here in front of a massive audience and chose fire and blood whilst her enemies died bravely against a foreign tyrant. Publicity matters. Ruling by terror did not go well for the Targaryens it would not go well longer term for Daenerys especially when she makes the entire nobility of Westeros her enemy whilst slaughtering the smallfolk she means to help by "breaking the wheel."


Now like I said this complaint feels unfair given the point is to make you uncomfortable and in the Books Dany has clearly lost patience with using peaceful means or forgiving her enemies after all the trouble and heart ache its caused and is clearly building up to a bloody campaign of liberation followed by conquest which will kill tens of thousands before being confronted by the consequences of her actions before the White Walkers arrive and she has to fight for what matters, not the twisted hunk of metal her ancestors forged through conquest and murder with the legacy of the greatest slaving empire in the world. But will show Dany have a moment when she realises that she's going down a dark road and needs to turn back before it dooms mankind? I don't think so.
 
I mean, I think they realized that they didn't show Dany's choice of 'Fire and Blood' well in the Mereen arc, and are trying to emphasize it now.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
My problem with the latest episode (and its not really a problem since the books are really setting this up as well but with a higher purpose) is Danaerys listens to people's advice and then overules them and does what she thinks best. This worked great in Slaver's bay but in Westeros the daughter of the mad King just burned thousands of men alive at the head of an army of rapist, slaving, savages who gleefully slaughter fleeing men and are probably stripping the countryside bare and then murders a man and his son who accuse her of being a foreign invader.

She's Aerys' fucking daughter. Burning her enemies alive when they are defenceless is a horrific way to kill someone but now she expects all those hundreds of men she just threatened to do the same to to take her word for it that she's going to change things for the better and that Cersei was lying when she called her a foreign conqueror who wanted to burn down Westeros and was willing to use foreign barbarians to do it.

Morals aside being a King or Queen is 60% about image. Dany's image is Aerys' heir at the moment. As long as she has dragons fine but what if she loses a dragon? Where does she plan to sleep at night with who guarding her? Does she expect these men to fight for her? The first major setback she suffers or the months she will be spending in the North will see her reign thrive or collapse entirely on how much loyalty she generates. So far she's lost every battle not won by treachery or mass murder/use of foreign cut throats. If she loses her Draconic edge or the Dothraki go home how long before the seven kingdoms rise up?

Now none of that matters because we know where the story is going but Daenerys doesn't really know that Iron Throne won't matter in the end, she means to sit on it and she was given a test here in front of a massive audience and chose fire and blood whilst her enemies died bravely against a foreign tyrant. Publicity matters. Ruling by terror did not go well for the Targaryens it would not go well longer term for Daenerys especially when she makes the entire nobility of Westeros her enemy whilst slaughtering the smallfolk she means to help by "breaking the wheel."


Now like I said this complaint feels unfair given the point is to make you uncomfortable and in the Books Dany has clearly lost patience with using peaceful means or forgiving her enemies after all the trouble and heart ache its caused and is clearly building up to a bloody campaign of liberation followed by conquest which will kill tens of thousands before being confronted by the consequences of her actions before the White Walkers arrive and she has to fight for what matters, not the twisted hunk of metal her ancestors forged through conquest and murder with the legacy of the greatest slaving empire in the world. But will show Dany have a moment when she realises that she's going down a dark road and needs to turn back before it dooms mankind? I don't think so.
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The thing is, Dany ultimately did nothing different then what other lords of Westeros do to their enemies since ever: Offer the choice of bending the knee or dying. It's literally the same choice Stannis gave to all his opponents.
 
comradepitrovsky said:
I mean, I think they realized that they didn't show Dany's choice of 'Fire and Blood' well in the Mereen arc, and are trying to emphasize it now.
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Yeah I hope that is what they are doing. Because lets face it who didn't want to see Jaime kill Drogon with a fucking lance after watching thousands burn alive in a doomed fight that they probably rightly thought was defending against foreign conquest? TBH the Lannisters this season manage to be as cruel and reckless as ever but the odds against them kind of make it hard for me at least not to enjoy watching them fight tooth and claw for every advantage.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
Yeah I hope that is what they are doing. Because lets face it who didn't want to see Jaime kill Drogon with a fucking lance after watching thousands burn alive in a doomed fight that they probably rightly thought was defending against foreign conquest? TBH the Lannisters this season manage to be as cruel and reckless as ever but the odds against them kind of make it hard for me at least not to enjoy watching them fight tooth and claw for every advantage.
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Yeah, I freely concede that I wanted Jamie to go all Brettonia on it. And damn, those Lannister and Tarlys, fighting and dying bravely . . . I mean, the guts it takes to form and reform those spear blocks after they saw their friends and brothers burned or eviscerated. They were fighting for the bad guys, yeah, but still. Damn. Heroes one and all.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
Yeah I hope that is what they are doing. Because lets face it who didn't want to see Jaime kill Drogon with a fucking lance after watching thousands burn alive in a doomed fight that they probably rightly thought was defending against foreign conquest? TBH the Lannisters this season manage to be as cruel and reckless as ever but the odds against them kind of make it hard for me at least not to enjoy watching them fight tooth and claw for every advantage.
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Honestly, I disagree. I was honestly cheering when I saw her attack those soldiers. We've had to put up with 6 seasons of the Lannisters winning, all the horrible things they've done in the name of mad rulers? it felt good to see them get handed a curb stomp in return. And before you judge me? I saw a lot of reactions on youtube on this, a LOT of people were outright cheering too.
 
Polokun said:
The thing is, Dany ultimately did nothing different then what other lords of Westeros do to their enemies since ever: Offer the choice of bending the knee or dying. It's literally the same choice Stannis gave to all his opponents.
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Isn't Dany's whole thing being she's better than the Kings and Lords who have been oppressing Westeros for thousands of years?

Is or is Dany not fighting to restore House Targaryen which was dethroned after pissing on its vassals for years through successive generations of cruel weaklings and fools and mad men?

Stannis would behead or imprison Tarly (he often shies from burning his actual foes from a battle) and probably comment on him being brave, he'd certainly admire Dickon for standing by his father because blood comes first in loyalties. Stannis would also keep the Dothraki in check. Finally Stannis spends his time in the North winning over the locals finally accepting he needs to offer something better rather than just demand loyalty or bring down destruction. Dany hasn't learned that.


My point is that Daenerys sees herself as liberator, a force for change and justice. Her first actions on Westerosi soil are killing thousands of brave men in a fight they can't possibly win before murdering prisoners who definitely come out of that exchange the better in terms of image. She can't make her new world with fire and blood followed by platitudes as she murders everyone who stands against her. Her whole point is being better, she needs to act like it.
 
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Polokun said:
The thing is, Dany ultimately did nothing different then what other lords of Westeros do to their enemies since ever: Offer the choice of bending the knee or dying. It's literally the same choice Stannis gave to all his opponents.
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A normal Westeros lord would behead their opponents. Stannis set dudes on fire. Dany set dudes on fire with her dragon.

The difference between Stannis and Dany is that Stannis never claimed to be saviour of Westeros. Dany does, and the first thing she does to her opponents is to did what the Mad King did to the Starks. Not only that, but Dany burned Mace Tyrell, one of Westeros' leading generals, a man who would be extremely valuable at the Wall (though Dany is given benefit of doubt because she did't know about the Walkers).

Stannis wins the heart of the people. It's why people follow him to the edge of the world. It's why book readers have a far better view of Stannis than show Stannis. Stannis understand the value of soft power, Dany has yet to learn that.
 
Polokun said:
Honestly, I disagree. I was honestly cheering when I saw her attack those soldiers. We've had to put up with 6 seasons of the Lannisters winning, all the horrible things they've done in the name of mad rulers? it felt good to see them get handed a curb stomp in return. And before you judge me? I saw a lot of reactions on youtube on this, a LOT of people were outright cheering too.
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Well we're definitely coming from it from a different place. Because they weren't fighting for Cersei alone. They were fighting for Jaime and Randyll leading them against fucking dragons who were burning their winter stores and sending thousands of foreign barbarians through their lands. But as importantly you don't need to be on the side of the angels to fight bravely. They fought and they died and frankly it was far more impressive watching them fight back against the odds than Daenerys using her "I win" button.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
My point is that Daenerys sees herself as liberator, a force for change and justice. Her first actions on Westerosi soil are killing thousands of brave men in a fight they can't possibly win before murdering prisoners who definitely come out of that exchange the better in terms of image. She can't make her new world with fire and blood followed by platitudes as she murders everyone who stands against her. Her whole point is being better, she needs to act like it.
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And how exactly do you expect her to win a war for the Iron Throne? With promises and kind words? Let alone against Cersei herself? Dany can be the liberator she promises, but she needs to actually BE in a position of power and strength to do it in, and guess what? That involves winning battles and spilling a lot of blood.

Hykal94 said:
The difference between Stannis and Dany is that Stannis never claimed to be saviour of Westeros. Dany does, and the first thing she does to her opponents is to did what the Mad King did to the Starks. Not only that, but Dany burned Mace Tyrell, one of Westeros' leading generals, a man who would be extremely valuable at the Wall (though Dany is given benefit of doubt because she did't know about the Walkers).
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She seemed open to that idea before RANDYL TARLY decided to be a stubborn asshole for no reason.

Hykal94 said:
Stannis wins the heart of the people. It's why people follow him to the edge of the world. It's why book readers have a far better view of Stannis than show Stannis. Stannis understand the value of soft power, Dany has yet to learn that.
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And Stannis also stated that Joffrey and Robb would either bend the knee or be destroyed.

Mortis Nuntius said:
Well we're definitely coming from it from a different place. Because they weren't fighting for Cersei alone. They were fighting for Jaime and Randyll leading them against fucking dragons who were burning their winter stores and sending thousands of foreign barbarians through their lands. But as importantly you don't need to be on the side of the angels to fight bravely. They fought and they died and frankly it was far more impressive watching them fight back against the odds than Daenerys using her "I win" button.
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Ultimately, I felt little sympathy for them. Especially after what they did to the Riverlands.
 
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