FusionVerse - Combining All The Stories

[CoreBrute]

I mean let's be fair here, if Godzilla has 4th wall awareness to know weaknesses, it can use radiation manipulation to basically cover the sky with nuclear fallout, temporarily blocking out the sun. So like in The Dark Knight Returns, Superman's power from solar radiation is cut off, which means best case he's fighting with a finite battery, worst case he's gonna run out of power really quick and then be eaten by the Kaiju.

 

[Jcogginsa]

I think getting into a versus debate is the wrong way to go here

 

[CoreBrute]

I think getting into a versus debate is the wrong way to go here

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Agreed. It's unhelpful and attracts the wrong kind of arguments.

 

[5elementsage]

Agreed. It's unhelpful and attracts the wrong kind of arguments.

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That is fair, but my sole purpose in bringing up their stats in that context is to illustrate whether the fight would even be fair. Granted, I used Post-Crisis, not Silver Age Superman (who would wipe out Godzilla in practically a single thought), and I used a Composite of Godzilla, but what it accomplished is demonstrating that this is a rivalry which could persist. I was skeptical because I thought Superman was WAY too powerful, and Godzilla was WAY not. I had no earthly clue the King of Monsters was that strong. Consider this my tacit approval for the Superman vs. Godzilla element being including in Fusionverse.

Now, that being said, I don't think the inclusion of Godzilla needs Superman to start out in the 50's. Japan can handle Godzilla for a few decades. If Superman were to be in his early thirties in 2012 (around the time a lot of big events in Fusionverse seem to start), he would have been born in the late seventies. That would mean Godzilla would run around "unchecked" except by other Kaiju, for about two decades. Does that seem fair to you guys?

 

[Artemis_Fowl_2nd]

That would mean Godzilla would run around "unchecked" except by other Kaiju, for about two decades. Does that seem fair to you guys?

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I think that Godzilla works better as the one doing the checking. As in he goes around stomping anything that gets to big, or to strong. Perhaps even to loud. This would give him a decent reason to go after superman, and give a good reason that the planet still exists. Sort of as a natural counter balance.
So if that giant from the first episode of one punch man shows up, or anything sudden like that, Godzilla would stomp on over, and then stomp them.

 

[Jcogginsa]

I feel like the rivalry needs to start early in Godzilla's career. I want Godzilla to have a character arc where he starts out hostile and angry towards humanity, but overtime he grows into a role more akin to his role in Legendary's movies. Part of his growth in that direction is influence from Superman.

 

[5elementsage]

I can just imagine it now. Clark Kent is doing a column piece on the mistreatment of anthro citizens, when heavy waves start rolling over the harbor of Metropolis. Godzilla arises from the water, and a psychic signal only Clark can hear declares, "Superman, your power is a threat to your city and this planet as a whole, even when turned toward its defense. I will provide balance."

 

[Jcogginsa]

I can just imagine it now. Clark Kent is doing a column piece on the mistreatment of anthro citizens, when heavy waves start rolling over the harbor of Metropolis. Godzilla arises from the water, and a psychic signal only Clark can hear declares, "Superman, your power is a threat to your city and this planet as a whole, even when turned toward its defense. I will provide balance."

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No, that doesn't really work at all. The point of the rivalry is that it's supposed to be a clash between a Hero created by Humanities best quality and a monster created by it's worst.

Having Godzilla attack Superman in order to preserve some kind of of balance strips the clash of all it's thematic power

 

[ManuJM1997]

Like I said, using Shin as base and giving elements of G54, GMK and the Ani Goji would be the best for that thematic



So this Goji would be the son of the Atom Bomb, but also fueled by the vengeful spirits of WW2, claiming for vengeance to a world that has seemingly chose to forget them

 

[5elementsage]

No, that doesn't really work at all. The point of the rivalry is that it's supposed to be a clash between a Hero created by Humanities best quality and a monster created by it's worst.

Having Godzilla attack Superman in order to preserve some kind of of balance strips the clash of all it's thematic power

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In what way? Godzilla's not just some manifestation of evil or a garden-variety nuclear mutant, he's a force of nature set against things that disrupt the natural balance. He first arose in response to humanity's splitting the atom, and has since arrived to defeat monsters from underground, or from the bottom of the ocean, or from outer space. As an alien that turns the natural power of sunlight into a nigh-unstoppable power, Superman definitely qualifies.

As for Superman's virtues, he was taught the importance of doing and saying what is right, putting a stop to those who don't, and seeking liberty for mankind. He was taught to restrain and control his powers because losing control would upturn the very things he was raised to stand for. He'd probably fight Godzilla initially to keep him away from Metropolis, until the two could reconcile their perspectives. He would see the arrival of this daikaiju as an affront to the safety of humans, and a crime against humanity, on the level of nuking a city. Godzilla would have to show him that he sees Superman as the same thing, and both of them are directly or indirectly responsible for property damage.

The difference that I feel would come to define this rivalry, beyond just a simple fight, is what they are. Godzilla responds to a natural compulsion against unnatural forces. Superman DEFIES his own nature because his human parents taught him another way. This is why I feel the conflict would endure. Godzilla will always be innately drawn to Superman and seek to remove the disruption of nature he represents. Superman will always stand against Godzilla because he sees proper use of such overwhelming power as a benefit to mankind.

 

[Jcogginsa]

Like I said, using Shin as base and giving elements of G54, GMK and the Ani Goji would be the best for that thematic



So this Goji would be the son of the Atom Bomb, but also fueled by the vengeful spirits of WW2, claiming for vengeance to a world that has seemingly chose to forget them

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Not sure about including the WW2 spirits

In what way? Godzilla's not just some manifestation of evil or a garden-variety nuclear mutant, he's a force of nature set against things that disrupt the natural balance. He first arose in response to humanity's splitting the atom, and has since arrived to defeat monsters from underground, or from the bottom of the ocean, or from outer space. As an alien that turns the natural power of sunlight into a nigh-unstoppable power, Superman definitely qualifies.

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Because if he's a force of nature, then he loses his thematic status as being a creation of humanity. It's no longer symbolic of humanity's better nature grappling with it's worse nature.

Also, if having Balance means killing Superman, then that means that this balance is unambiguously a bad thing.

As for Superman's virtues, he was taught the importance of doing and saying what is right, putting a stop to those who don't, and seeking liberty for mankind. He was taught to restrain and control his powers because losing control would upturn the very things he was raised to stand for. He'd probably fight Godzilla initially to keep him away from Metropolis, until the two could reconcile their perspectives. He would see the arrival of this daikaiju as an affront to the safety of humans, and a crime against humanity, on the level of nuking a city. Godzilla would have to show him that he sees Superman as the same thing, and both of them are directly or indirectly responsible for property damage.

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Except no, that doesn't work at all. You're never going to be able to convince people that Godzilla and Superman are on the same moral level. Godzilla is always going to be the villain when those two fight.

The difference that I feel would come to define this rivalry, beyond just a simple fight, is what they are. Godzilla responds to a natural compulsion against unnatural forces. Superman DEFIES his own nature because his human parents taught him another way. This is why I feel the conflict would endure. Godzilla will always be innately drawn to Superman and seek to remove the disruption of nature he represents. Superman will always stand against Godzilla because he sees proper use of such overwhelming power as a benefit to mankind.

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Except doing this makes Godzilla into an inherently evil figure without the option of reform.

If Godzilla represents Humanities worse nature, then that fits symbolically with his character arc. He losing his hatred of humanity and maturing into a guardian would represent Humanities better nature triumphing over it's worst nature

 

[5elementsage]

Not sure about including the WW2 spirits

Because if he's a force of nature, then he loses his thematic status as being a creation of humanity. It's no longer symbolic of humanity's better nature grappling with it's worse nature.

Also, if having Balance means killing Superman, then that means that this balance is unambiguously a bad thing.

Except no, that doesn't work at all. You're never going to be able to convince people that Godzilla and Superman are on the same moral level. Godzilla is always going to be the villain when those two fight.

Except doing this makes Godzilla into an inherently evil figure without the option of reform.

If Godzilla represents Humanities worse nature, then that fits symbolically with his character arc. He losing his hatred of humanity and maturing into a guardian would represent Humanities better nature triumphing over it's worst nature

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Wow, I cannot fathom how warped your perspective of this character is. Godzilla was never created by mankind. Mankind split the atom, bombed each other, poisoned the world, and Godzilla arose as nature's response to that. According to the original canon, they were existing reptiles that changed in response to nuclear disaster. Even when one Godzilla was defeated, another would always arise. The main flaw of this point of view is how human-centric it is. Which makes since if you're looking at it from Superman's point of view, because he was engineered to abandon the natural way of a Kryptonian and adopt human-oriented and human-centric behaviors. The responsibility of using his powers the way a human society would approve and/or benefit from.

I never said "Balance means killing Superman." I said Godzilla would seek him out as a disruption of balance. Natural balance dictates that all life that originates on Earth (whether by evolution or by design, you pick), grows and adapts to suit itself, and creates a sort of harmony. Yes, things die and animals kill and eat each other, many events that some humans look upon as cruel and unfair (like a wounded deer getting no help). That is the natural balance. When a scientist on a dying planet sends his infant here in a rocket, and that infant absorbs our sunlight and uses it to become far stronger and more destructive than any natural human or animal, that is a blatant unbalancing of nature. Superman's anatomy does not behave in any way like that of any living thing on Earth, and he uses it to defeat or destroy threats to humanity; which is using alien resources to solve native problems. Think about what happened when rabbits, which have no natural predator, were brought to Australia.

Rabbits in Australia - Wikipedia

The reason this rivalry sounds so good to me, now, is because they could fight each other again and again until they come to an understanding. One of them wouldn't just roflstomp the other and move on. This balance of power means that Godzilla could adapt to see Superman as a net benefit in the face of forces like Darkseid or Mongul or Sun Eaters. Superman could learn to keep a cease-fire with Godzilla, where the King of Monsters stays out of human cities unless needed to fight Kaiju, and Superman does his best to keep a handle on the destructive potential of his powers.

 

[CoreBrute]

Now, that being said, I don't think the inclusion of Godzilla needs Superman to start out in the 50's. Japan can handle Godzilla for a few decades. If Superman were to be in his early thirties in 2012 (around the time a lot of big events in Fusionverse seem to start), he would have been born in the late seventies. That would mean Godzilla would run around "unchecked" except by other Kaiju, for about two decades. Does that seem fair to you guys?

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What big events? Do you have some ideas for a timeline or something, or are you just referring to the splurge of Superhero Movies post Avengers?

No, that doesn't really work at all. The point of the rivalry is that it's supposed to be a clash between a Hero created by Humanities best quality and a monster created by it's worst.

Having Godzilla attack Superman in order to preserve some kind of of balance strips the clash of all it's thematic power

Click to shrink...

Maybe Godzilla is drawn to Metropolis because Lex Luthor is doing some weird radiation experiments (kryptonite or otherwise) that damages nature/the ocean. Then when Superman sees a giant lizard attack his hometown, he goes to fight, which is the start of a series of massive battles over months or maybe years.

 

[Jcogginsa]

Wow, I cannot fathom how warped your perspective of this character is. Godzilla was never created by mankind. Mankind split the atom, bombed each other, poisoned the world, and Godzilla arose as nature's response to that. According to the original canon, they were existing reptiles that changed in response to nuclear disaster. Even when one Godzilla was defeated, another would always arise. The main flaw of this point of view is how human-centric it is. Which makes since if you're looking at it from Superman's point of view, because he was engineered to abandon the natural way of a Kryptonian and adopt human-oriented and human-centric behaviors. The responsibility of using his powers the way a human society would approve and/or benefit from.

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No,Godzilla most certainly was created by humanity. He was a creature created due to radiation released from an atomic bomb.

I look at it from a human centric point of view because that's the point of view that will make for the best story.

I never said "Balance means killing Superman." I said Godzilla would seek him out as a disruption of balance. Natural balance dictates that all life that originates on Earth (whether by evolution or by design, you pick), grows and adapts to suit itself, and creates a sort of harmony. Yes, things die and animals kill and eat each other, many events that some humans look upon as cruel and unfair (like a wounded deer getting no help). That is the natural balance. When a scientist on a dying planet sends his infant here in a rocket, and that infant absorbs our sunlight and uses it to become far stronger and more destructive than any natural human or animal, that is a blatant unbalancing of nature. Superman's anatomy does not behave in any way like that of any living thing on Earth, and he uses it to defeat or destroy threats to humanity; which is using alien resources to solve native problems. Think about what happened when rabbits, which have no natural predator, were brought to Australia.

Rabbits in Australia - Wikipedia
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1. Nature has no inherent Balance to it.
2. There is nothing unnatural about Superman. He is a naturally born individual with abilities derived from his natural bodily functions.
3. Even if there were such a balance, by framing it as being in opposition to Superman's traditional activities, that Balance then becomes a villainous force that must be resisted, not acquiesced to.

The reason this rivalry sounds so good to me, now, is because they could fight each other again and again until they come to an understanding. One of them wouldn't just roflstomp the other and move on. This balance of power means that Godzilla could adapt to see Superman as a net benefit in the face of forces like Darkseid or Mongul or Sun Eaters. Superman could learn to keep a cease-fire with Godzilla, where the King of Monsters stays out of human cities unless needed to fight Kaiju, and Superman does his best to keep a handle on the destructive potential of his powers.

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Except you're set up precludes them from ever coming to an understanding, because Superman is never going to stop using his powers to help people.

What big events? Do you have some ideas for a timeline or something, or are you just referring to the splurge of Superhero Movies post Avengers?



Maybe Godzilla is drawn to Metropolis because Lex Luthor is doing some weird radiation experiments (kryptonite or otherwise) that damages nature/the ocean. Then when Superman sees a giant lizard attack his hometown, he goes to fight, which is the start of a series of massive battles over months or maybe years.

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I don't think you need a special reason for Godzilla and Superman to fight. Godzilla is a monster lashing out at humanity, and Superman is a Hero who wants to stop him. That's how they meet, the deeper connections develop from there.

Here's how I see it going:

There first battle happens when Godzilla attacks a city, motivated by his still burning anger against humanity. Superman intervenes in order to preserve lives, and the fight ensues. Godzilla's sheer might forces Superman to progress into lethal force, culminating in him beating back Godzilla's atomic breath a la the ray gun from the Fleischer shorts. Godzilla is seemingly killed, but so is Superman. From there the events of Reign of the Supermen occur, and Superman eventually returns, having realized that he was wrong to use Lethal Force, and that he must hold to his ideals even in extreme situations. Knowing that he will eventually need to face Godzilla again, Superman begins work on a device that will stabilize Godzilla's body, soothing his pain.

After a couple years, he manages to do so. During this time, Godzilla has begun mellowing out due to influence from outside kaiju like Mothra and Anguirus, bu when he sees Superman, he attacks in a rage. They fight for a bit, until Superman manages to activate his device. With the chronic Pain he'd been feeling for his entire life gone, Godzilla calms down and the fight ends peaceably. After this encounters, Godzilla adopts his son, and begins transitioning into a more heroic figure.

Years down the line, Godzilla as fully transitioned into a guardian a la the Legendary films, and has a final battle with Superman, after the ladder his been dosed with Red Kryptonite. The battle is intense, but Godzilla manages to Keep Superman busy long enough for the Red K to wear off

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[CoreBrute]

No,Godzilla most certainly was created by humanity. He was a creature created due to radiation released from an atomic bomb.

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Godzilla was a prehistoric creature who was awoken by radioactive bombs in the pacific. It says so in Wikipedia.

I look at it from a human centric point of view because that's the point of view that will make for the best story.

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That's a subjective opinion.

I'm confused by your piece. Godzilla adopts Superman's son? Then Superman comes back? I thought we agreed Superman was staying dead during the Reign of the supermen and then his son (and then Conor) take over as the new Superman? Can't exactly take over as Superman if the old Superman is still around.

Actually @5elementsage since we want to have multiple versions of Superman through history but you want a modern Superman, maybe the Superman who was born in the 30s or so, does all the crazy Silver Age Superman impossible stuff, and then dies in the 80s. Then his son (whose 11 and so is in his 30s or so around modern day) is the Modern Day Superman, who does the modern day Superman stuff, but he can't do the impossible things his father could do like develop random super powers and spin the Earth backwards (that last bit was a joke, please don't hurt me) because he's half-human/doesn't have the 50+ years of experience.

 

[Jcogginsa]

Godzilla was a prehistoric creature who was awoken by radioactive bombs in the pacific. It says so in Wikipedia.


That's a subjective opinion.

I'm confused by your piece. Godzilla adopts Superman's son? Then Superman comes back? I thought we agreed Superman was staying dead during the Reign of the supermen and then his son (and then Conor) take over as the new Superman? Can't exactly take over as Superman if the old Superman is still around.

Actually @5elementsage since we want to have multiple versions of Superman through history but you want a modern Superman, maybe the Superman who was born in the 30s or so, does all the crazy Silver Age Superman impossible stuff, and then dies in the 80s. Then his son (whose 11 and so is in his 30s or so around modern day) is the Modern Day Superman, who does the modern day Superman stuff, but he can't do the impossible things his father could do like develop random super powers and spin the Earth backwards (that last bit was a joke, please don't hurt me) because he's half-human/doesn't have the 50+ years of experience.

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1. I'm basing it on the Heisei origin
2. No, Godzilla finds his own son, Minya/Godzilla Junior, after Superman cures his pain
3. We agreed that Superman would die at some point, but not specifically after the Death of Superman event. I feel that Death of Superman doesn't work as a good send off for the character

 

[ManuJM1997]

1. I'm basing it on the Heisei origin
2. No, Godzilla finds his own son, Minya/Godzilla Junior, after Superman cures his pain
3. We agreed that Superman would die at some point, but not specifically after the Death of Superman event. I feel that Death of Superman doesn't work as a good send off for the character

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In the Heisei series he wasn't created by the bomb, thought.
He was created bya a Russian submarine

 

[Jcogginsa]

In the Heisei series he wasn't created by the bomb, thought.
He was created bya a Russian submarine

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No, he was originally created by a bomb. The Sub was only because of Time Travel, and I'm not including that element

 

[ManuJM1997]

No, he was originally created by a bomb. The Sub was only because of Time Travel, and I'm not including that element

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[5elementsage]

Godzilla was a prehistoric creature who was awoken by radioactive bombs in the pacific. It says so in Wikipedia.


That's a subjective opinion.

I'm confused by your piece. Godzilla adopts Superman's son? Then Superman comes back? I thought we agreed Superman was staying dead during the Reign of the supermen and then his son (and then Conor) take over as the new Superman? Can't exactly take over as Superman if the old Superman is still around.

Actually @5elementsage since we want to have multiple versions of Superman through history but you want a modern Superman, maybe the Superman who was born in the 30s or so, does all the crazy Silver Age Superman impossible stuff, and then dies in the 80s. Then his son (whose 11 and so is in his 30s or so around modern day) is the Modern Day Superman, who does the modern day Superman stuff, but he can't do the impossible things his father could do like develop random super powers and spin the Earth backwards (that last bit was a joke, please don't hurt me) because he's half-human/doesn't have the 50+ years of experience.

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Yes, the canon Godzilla we are using was awoken, not created. The first American movie went more in the direction of "Godzilla is turned from an iguana into a giant monster." We're not doing that. Because Zilla is garbage.

I'm a little unclear on what could KILL Silver Age Superman. Like well and truly murdalize him. Because not even Doomsday could. I hate the Death of Superman arc for that reason. Now that I'm looking at research materials, he could even handle Trigon or Imperiex. Both of whom manhandle Doomsday. The only being I can find with a chance is Doctor Fate, and he'd have to pull some serious hax. The good doctor himself is way less powerful than Superman, but Nabu himself is ALMOST equal to Supes. Here's how he could beat him, though:

Doctor Fate surrounds the planet in a magic spell that warps Yellow Sunlight so it shifts to Red. While Superman grapples with the fact that he has no powers, Doctor Fate encases him in refined green Kryptonite. Now, even if someone undoes the spell, Superman is immobilized and the Green K is draining his powers. From here, Doc could take one of two routes. Either A) casting a spell to turn Superman human/remove his solar absorption properties, or B) spear him in the heart and brain with pitons of Gold Kryptonite, which is able to permanently remove a Kryptonian's powers.

The only way he would do this is if he came to view Superman as an irredeemable agent of Chaos. Not sure how one would pull that off.

1. I'm basing it on the Heisei origin
2. No, Godzilla finds his own son, Minya/Godzilla Junior, after Superman cures his pain
3. We agreed that Superman would die at some point, but not specifically after the Death of Superman event. I feel that Death of Superman doesn't work as a good send off for the character

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[Jcogginsa]

The Awoken being angle doesn't work as well as the human created origin

 

[CoreBrute]

I can't believe the origin of Godzilla involves time travel.

I'm a little unclear on what could KILL Silver Age Superman. Like well and truly murdalize him. Because not even Doomsday could. I hate the Death of Superman arc for that reason...

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But he did kill Superman. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Look there are many ways Superman could die fighting Godzilla. Maybe Lex Luthor or someone flooded the city in Green Kryptonite energy, while holding Lois hostage. The green energy attracted Godzilla to Metropolis, forcing the two to fight so Godzilla didn't accidentally destroy the city, but the fight caused Superman to take a fatal wound. Or Godzilla used his radiation powers to block out the sun, draining Superman of energy, but Superman couldn't fly away because Godzilla might destroy the city while he flew off to recharge.

Additionally there are many super powerful mystics in fiction, and the 80s is around the time Voldermort was active. Maybe he and a group of evil wizards from different fiction got together to weaken Superman with a series of curses, including Adava Kadavar etc. Maybe they cast a circle or something to keep other heroes from helping Superman-or maybe Brainiac turned Metropolis to a miniature city temporarily.

Basically Superman did not die because of one enemy. He could have died because loads of enemies teamed up to take him down, as he is the greatest symbol of heroism in the world. (Basically the plot of Wanted, except one target, and it started the Iron Age of comics)

It's like how Bane broke Batman's back in the comics. He didn't do it just because he was a stronger fight. First he released all of arkham so Batman would be exhausted fighting all his enemies, then emotionally drained from other issues, and then Bane capitalised on that weakness to 'break the bat'. Same could have happened to Superman.

The Awoken being angle doesn't work as well as the human created origin

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It is canon though, so we will have to work with that canon, rather than ignore it.

 

[Jcogginsa]

It is canon though, so we will have to work with that canon, rather than ignore it.

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No, we don't. We decide what is canon for our universe, and there plenty of Godzillas who are animals mutated by atomic radiation, so it is perfectly possible for us to have that be Godzilla's origin. And that is the origin that will work the best for a conflict with Superman

 

[5elementsage]

I can't believe the origin of Godzilla involves time travel.


But he did kill Superman. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Look there are many ways Superman could die fighting Godzilla. Maybe Lex Luthor or someone flooded the city in Green Kryptonite energy, while holding Lois hostage. The green energy attracted Godzilla to Metropolis, forcing the two to fight so Godzilla didn't accidentally destroy the city, but the fight caused Superman to take a fatal wound.

Additionally there are many super powerful mystics in fiction, and the 80s is around the time Voldermort was active. Maybe he and a group of evil wizards from different fiction got together to weaken Superman with a series of curses, including Adava Kadavar etc. Maybe they cast a circle or something to keep other heroes from helping Superman-or maybe Brainiac turned Metropolis to a miniature city temporarily.

Basically Superman did not die because of one enemy. He could have died because loads of enemies teamed up to take him down, as he is the greatest symbol of heroism in the world. (Basically the plot of Wanted, except one target, and it started the Iron Age of comics)

It's like how Bane broke Batman's back in the comics. He didn't do it just because he was a stronger fight. First he released all of arkham so Batman would be exhausted fighting all his enemies, then emotionally drained from other issues, and then Bane capitalised on that weakness to 'break the bat'. Same could have happened to Superman.


It is canon though, so we will have to work with that canon, rather than ignore it.

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To my recollection, Doomsday forced Superman into a state where his heart was beating once per week, and he had to go to a special chamber to recover properly. It appeared as though he were dead, and he had a funeral, but he didn't truly die. If someone has information to the contrary, please supply it.

Godzilla CAN kill him, I think. I demonstrated that with my research. Godzilla has an attack that can mitigate durability and negate regeneration, as well as versions of that attack that are several times more powerful, and even a beam attack that uses magic energy. Which would cut through Supes like a hot knife through butter. My point in saying "I don't know who" referred specifically to Silver Age DC. I perused the Cosmic Beings on DC's VS page, and all his plausible enemies are too weak. You'd basically have to make it Author Authority that they were able to do it. The exception being my above description of Fate.

Yes, I feel like a collaboration could do it. Proper use of Metallo and Klarion the Witch Boy would help. But the Death of Superman used one person, Doomsday, so I was trying to find one person.

 

[Jcogginsa]

Death of Superman is a story that can only be done well if Superman is only temporarily dead. Superman's actual death should not happen in battle