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FusionVerse - Combining All The Stories

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Jcogginsa said:
It's a different situation

Inspiring people is Superman's whole deal, so having him be the guy that goes public first and inspires a massive change in the world. He already canonically inspires people well into the far future with tales of his exploits, so him being the first Superhero makes perfect sense for his character in ways that aren't there for robots or other character archetypes.

There's also the fact that Superman is a timeless character, he's not tied down to any particular era, so he can be put at any location in the timeline and work well.

(And no, outside of the DCEU Wonder Woman has never predated Superman to my knowledge)
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Alright, you're making me pull out the stops. Mandrake the Magician, the Phantom, and Hugo Danner (aka Gladiator) all predate Superman in publication and in canon origin.

But this is all beside the point. The basis of your argument is his publication date, and I've established that we're basing this on storytelling, not on real-world stats like publication date. Whether or not he's iconic or inspiring is beside the point. I believe I stated in an earlier post that we're going with a more modern Superman anyway, not one who started out in the 30's. I can dig that up later if need be.
 
5elementsage said:
Alright, you're making me pull out the stops. Mandrake the Magician, the Phantom, and Hugo Danner (aka Gladiator) all predate Superman in publication and in canon origin.

But this is all beside the point. The basis of your argument is his publication date, and I've established that we're basing this on storytelling, not on real-world stats like publication date. Whether or not he's iconic or inspiring is beside the point. I believe I stated in an earlier post that we're going with a more modern Superman anyway, not one who started out in the 30's. I can dig that up later if need be.
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And none of them matter a tenth as much as Superman. They may have had some of the same ideas, but none of them match his impact on culture.

And furthermore, the reason that Superman should be the first public Superhero is because in his own story he is already the person who changes the world. Any Superhero who debuts before him is going to be rendered irrelevant by his impact. He is the one that people are still going to remember and be inspired by 1000 years in the future. From a storytelling perspective having him be the first Superhero makes the most sense.
 
I can see where Jc is coming from. It's like Watchmen-before Dr Manhattan there were just guys & gals in suits, but after him there were gods. He completely changed the stakes. His look alone inspired thousands of heroes.

Also the whole coming in world war 1 thing for Wonder Woman was in the film not the comics. Comics she came around in world war 2 soon after Superman and Batman (and then modernised whenever they came in modern day) They are the big three of DC for a reason and should probably start crime fighting around the same time.

I thought we agreed that superman was gonna be around in the 50s at least to fight Godzilla? Godzilla would be his Doomsday.

I think a cool thing to do would be to have Superman's death in the 80s stick. He doesn't come back. Then have supers try to fill that gap (it's why so many Superman expys showed up).

Then in modern day a new Superman comes, either his clone Super Boy (Young Justice) or his son Jon Kent or maybe something else like his adopted son Christopher Kent.

Thus we have a modern superman as well as the historical superman who achieved all those incredible things in the past.

What do you think?
 
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CoreBrute said:
I can see where Jc is coming from. It's like Watchmen-before Dr Manhattan there were just guys & gals in suits, but after him there were gods. He completely changed the stakes. His look alone inspired thousands of heroes.

Also the whole coming in world war 1 thing for Wonder Woman was in the film not the comics. Comics she came around in world war 2 soon after Superman and Batman (and then modernised whenever they came in modern day) They are the big three of DC for a reason and should probably start crime fighting around the same time.

I thought we agreed that superman was gonna be around in the 50s at least to fight Godzilla? Godzilla would be his Doomsday.

I think a cool thing to do would be to have Superman's death in the 80s stick. He doesn't come back. Then have supers try to fill that gap (it's why so many Superman expys showed up).

Then in modern day a new Superman comes, either his clone Super Boy (Young Justice) or his son Jon Kent or maybe something else like his adopted son Christopher Kent.

Thus we have a modern superman as well as the historical superman who achieved all those incredible things in the past.

What do you think?
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I think the Legacy route makes the most sense. I would probably make Jon Kent the Second Superman, with Connor coming after him
 
Jcogginsa said:
I think the Legacy route makes the most sense. I would probably make Jon Kent the Second Superman, with Connor coming after him
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You don't want to do it the other way round? Connor Kent did die at one point, and just a personal opinion, a clone being forced to train the actual son of Superman seems like a more interesting dynamic than the reverse. Especially because depending which Jon continuity we use, Jon might not have ever known he was Superman's son until he got his powers.

Also Connor is usually depicted as being weaker than normal Kryptonians because his body is stuck in boy/teenager mode and thus can't absorb as much solar energy. So it makes a sort of sense that he would step down once a true new Superman shows up, so Connor could figure out who he wanted to be, as a clone of both Superman and Lex Luthor.
 
CoreBrute said:
You don't want to do it the other way round? Connor Kent did die at one point, and just a personal opinion, a clone being forced to train the actual son of Superman seems like a more interesting dynamic than the reverse. Especially because depending which Jon continuity we use, Jon might not have ever known he was Superman's son until he got his powers.

Also Connor is usually depicted as being weaker than normal Kryptonians because his body is stuck in boy/teenager mode and thus can't absorb as much solar energy. So it makes a sort of sense that he would step down once a true new Superman shows up, so Connor could figure out who he wanted to be, as a clone of both Superman and Lex Luthor.
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Jon is the son of Lois and Clark, which meanshe needs to be born while Lois is young enough to have Children. If Connor comes first his time as Superman would be very short.

(Also Jon needs to be a contemporary with Bruce's son Damian)
 
Jcogginsa said:
Jon is the son of Lois and Clark, which meanshe needs to be born while Lois is young enough to have Children. If Connor comes first his time as Superman would be very short.

(Also Jon needs to be a contemporary with Bruce's son Damian)
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Well let's say Superman dies while Lois is pregnant like in the elseworld story I linked. Jon doesn't get his powers until puberty, so that's still like 18 years at least for Connor to be Superman, probably longer as Jon acts as Superboy (which gets funny when Jon looks older than the forever young clone).


Batman could have a kid with Talia anytime because:
1) She's eternally youthful because of the Lazarus pits
2) His sperm was stolen and put in an artificial womb without Bruce's knowledge
 
CoreBrute said:
Well let's say Superman dies while Lois is pregnant like in the elseworld story I linked. Jon doesn't get his powers until puberty, so that's still like 18 years at least for Connor to be Superman, probably longer as Jon acts as Superboy (which gets funny when Jon looks older than the forever young clone).


Batman could have a kid with Talia anytime because:
1) She's eternally youthful because of the Lazarus pits
2) His sperm was stolen and put in an artificial womb without Bruce's knowledge
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1. Part of Jon Kent's charm is being raised by Superman
2. Damis still born during Batman's lifetime
 
Jcogginsa said:
1. Part of Jon Kent's charm is being raised by Superman
2. Damis still born during Batman's lifetime
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Depends on if you want the Jon from Supersons or not.

Eh. It's difficult to figure out a timeline for Batman that allows him to have Damien, and live long enough to mentor Terry from Batman Beyond, while also having him start in the 30s with Superman (which you seemed keen on doing). If you can find a way to reconcile all these issues without using a Lazarus Put I would love to hear it.
 
CoreBrute said:
Depends on if you want the Jon from Supersons or not.

Eh. It's difficult to figure out a timeline for Batman that allows him to have Damien, and live long enough to mentor Terry from Batman Beyond, while also having him start in the 30s with Superman (which you seemed keen on doing). If you can find a way to reconcile all these issues without using a Lazarus Put I would love to hear it.
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1. I definitely want the Super Sons

2. Personally I don't need Bruce to be the one that mentors Terry. That could be Damian. My thinking would be that the Batman legacy goes

Bruce->Dick->Damian---> Terry
 
Even if Clark Kent dies when Jon Kent is 11, that still has at least 7 years if not more for Connor to act as Superman, while training Jon in using his powers. That's plenty really.

I think it would be interesting if Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne die around the same time (Bruce dying because Clark was already dead when someone like darkseid attacked), so both their sons are forced to grow up as teenagers without their fathers.
 
CoreBrute said:
Even if Clark Kent dies when Jon Kent is 11, that still has at least 7 years if not more for Connor to act as Superman, while training Jon in using his powers. That's plenty really.

I think it would be interesting if Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne die around the same time (Bruce dying because Clark was already dead when someone like darkseid attacked), so both their sons are forced to grow up as teenagers without their fathers.
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And I think Connor is better off coming after Jon, because that way there's no need to cut his time short.

(Also Damian doesn't even meet Bruce until he is nearly a teenager. )
CoreBrute said:
Never said raised, but yeah basically raised. The guy trained Terry from 16 until he was in his 30s.
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Starting at 16, meaning that all the actual raising happened before Terry met Bruce

(Plus, Damian being Terry's mentor is what they did when they brought Terry into the comics)
 
Jcogginsa said:
And I think Connor is better off coming after Jon, because that way there's no need to cut his time short.
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Alright. So then Connor never meets Superman then, if you want Jon to be the one who raises him to be the next Superman? Perhaps he was cloned based on either Jon or the original Superman some time later as a way to make a new superman or a weapon to use against Superman?

I like the idea that Vought-American may have used Superman DNA in their attempt to make the Homelander, and Superboy was a left over or forgotten clone that Lex Luthor co-opted. Maybe Luthor wanted to have a son worthy of his brilliance, so used Superman DNA to give him a body worthy of his mind. It's like Jango Fett and the clone army from Star Wars:

"You can have your army of super soldier clones. I just want a perfect son in my own image."

Jcogginsa said:
(Also Damian doesn't even meet Bruce until he is nearly a teenager. )

Starting at 16, meaning that all the actual raising happened before Terry met Bruce
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I disagree with that strongly, as Bruce has a significant impact in shaping who Terry was, as much as if not more than his parents.
Jcogginsa said:
(Plus, Damian being Terry's mentor is what they did when they brought Terry into the comics)
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As a tv purist that hurts my soul if we go with this, but unfortunately it's the only way I can see to make it work if Batman starts in the 30s (or was born in the 30s), so I reluctantly accept that might be the way we go.
 
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CoreBrute said:
Alright. So then Connor never meets Superman then, if you want Jon to be the one who raises him to be the next Superman? Perhaps he was cloned based on either Jon or the original Superman some time later as a way to make a new superman or a weapon to use against Superman?

I like the idea that Vought-American may have used Superman DNA in their attempt to make the Homelander, and Superboy was a left over or forgotten clone that Lex Luthor co-opted. Maybe Luthor wanted to have a son worthy of his brilliance, so used Superman DNA to give him a body worthy of his mind. It's like Jango Fett and the clone army from Star Wars:

"You can have your army of super soldier clones. I just want a perfect son in my own image."
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That works. We might also be able to tie him into the Clone Saga from Spider-Man
I disagree with that strongly, as Bruce has a significant impact in shaping who Terry was, as much as if not more than his parents.

As a tv purist that hurts my soul if we go with this, but unfortunately it's the only way I can see to make it work if Batman starts in the 30s (or was born in the 30s), so I reluctantly accept that might be the way we go.
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Well the only other option I see would be to have Bruce be cloned sometime after Damian's time as Batman, and have Terry be trained by the Clone Bruce
 
Did I ever say I agreed with the Superman vs. Godzilla thing? I saw it tossed around, but I never really gave it support because it didn't seem like it had much substance. I mean, Superman can do some really amazing things, defeat enemies well and truly above Godzilla's power level.

Granted, there are different portrayals of Godzilla. The one in that anime movie is...just wow. They had to leave Earth, and then when they came back he wrecked their shit. Dude is like the most powerful Godzilla that has ever been portrayed, certainly the largest.
 
5elementsage said:
Did I ever say I agreed with the Superman vs. Godzilla thing? I saw it tossed around, but I never really gave it support because it didn't seem like it had much substance. I mean, Superman can do some really amazing things, defeat enemies well and truly above Godzilla's power level.

Granted, there are different portrayals of Godzilla. The one in that anime movie is...just wow. They had to leave Earth, and then when they came back he wrecked their shit. Dude is like the most powerful Godzilla that has ever been portrayed, certainly the largest.
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1. I see Power Levels as mutable for our purposes. We don't need to be consistent with the source material, just our selves. And there's plenty of versions of Superman that are below or equal to Godzilla

2. The main reason I have for the Superman vs. Godzilla thing is thematic. Superman is a hero who represents the best qualities of humanity, whereas Godzilla is a monster representing humanity's worst qualities.
 
5elementsage said:
Did I ever say I agreed with the Superman vs. Godzilla thing? I saw it tossed around, but I never really gave it support because it didn't seem like it had much substance. I mean, Superman can do some really amazing things, defeat enemies well and truly above Godzilla's power level.

Granted, there are different portrayals of Godzilla. The one in that anime movie is...just wow. They had to leave Earth, and then when they came back he wrecked their shit. Dude is like the most powerful Godzilla that has ever been portrayed, certainly the largest.
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Actually, Godzilla at his strongest has defeated some pretty bullshit opponents, like that time he fought the Avengers and FF4 to standstill

Or that one where he killed the creators of his Multiverse

Godzilla's done some pretty OP shit

That being said, for the G that fights Supes, I think a mix of 54 and Shin (with some of Anime and 84 qualities) would be the best version
 
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Alright, I've got Post-Crisis Superman (because Post-Flashpoint is incomplete) and composite Godzilla up on VS Battles Wiki. Let's see how they compare, to see if one would just stomp the other and render this rivalry moot.

Tier: 4-B (Godzilla can get higher with Transformations, Power-Ups, Preparation, and Reactive Evolution), so that's a good start.


Godzilla Powers and Abilities (Base Form)

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Hand-to-Hand skill, Large Size (Type 2), Self-Sustaining (Types 1 and 2), Enhanced Senses (including Sixth Sense), Instinctive Reaction, Danmaku, Immortality (Types 1, 3, and Limited 6), Regeneration (Low-Mid in battle, Low-High with some unspecified time, High over a significant amount of time), Stealth skill, extreme pain tolerance, Berserk Mode, Rage Power, Flight, Breath Attack, Energy Projection, Manipulation, and Absorption, Radiation Manipulation, Magnetism Manipulation, Heat Vision, Electricity Manipulation and Absorption, Fire Manipulation, Plasma Manipulation, Homing Attack, Accelerated Development, Adaptation, Reactive Evolution, Possession, Soul Manipulation, Forcefield Creation, Gravity Manipulation, Life Force Absorption, 4th Wall Awareness and Breaking the Fourth Wall, Vehicular Mastery, Anti-Spatial Manipulation, Limited Biological Manipulation, Duplication, Burrowing, Weather Manipulation
Intimidation Aura (specifically works against beings with enhanced senses), Telepathy (universal range), Paralysis Inducement, Electro-Magnetism, Vibration Manipulation (able to destroy things on a molecular level and negate durability)


Godzilla Resistances

Extreme heat (excess of 1000 degrees Celsius), mind control, acid, poison, electricity, fire, disease, possession, high sound waves, petrification, magic, matter manipulation, high gravity levels, black holes and absolute zero temperatures, sleep manipulation, limited resistance to Spatial Manipulation


Superman Powers and Abilities

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Stellar Radiation Absorption and Empowerment, Flight, Enhanced Senses, Information Analysis, Heat Manipulation and Limited Matter Manipulation via Heat Vision, Durability Negation via Heat Vision, Non-Physical Interaction (heat vision can counter intangibility and molecular phasing), limited Power Nullification (heat vision can cut off external power sources), Self-Sustaining (types 1 and 2), Super Breath, Ice Breath, limited Intangibility and Invisibility (via phasing), Afterimage Creation, Illusion Creation (via Torquasm Vo), Aura (protects clothes and avoids grime), Martial Arts and Pressure Point Strikes, limited Sound Manipulation, limited Air Manipulation, limited Electricity Manipulation, limited Vibration Manipulation, calming touch, Astral Projection, Regeneration (at least Mid-Low), Body Control (self only), Absorption of EM Energy, Geothermal Energy, and other types of Energy, can convert biological energy into Solar Radiation
Limited Space-Time Manipulation, skill with alien technology


Superman Resistances

Reality warping, Energy Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Illusions, Empathic Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Time Stop, Existence Erasure, Possession, Willpower Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Acid Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, Magma Manipulation, Telekinesis, Deconstruction, Corruption, Biological Manipulation, Pain Manipulation


Attack Potency: Solar System level (Godzilla can go higher with Transformation, etc.)

Speed: Godzilla has Supersonic+ Movement Speed, Sub-Relativistic Attack Speed, FTL Reactions and Combat Speed, possibly Massively FTL+ Flight Speed. Superman moves Massively FTL+.

Lifting Strength: Godzilla is Class Y. Superman is Stellar.

Striking Strength: Solar System class.

Durability: Solar System level (Godzilla can go higher with Transformations, etc.)

Stamina: Godzilla's is Extremely high. Superman's is essentially infinite under yellow or blue sunlight.

Range: Godzilla's Atomic Breath is Planetary, and he also has interdimensional Teleportation. Superman's Heat vision is also Planetary.

Intelligence: Godzilla is gifted, Superman is a genius.

Godzilla weaknesses: Will explode if he absorbs too much radiation (he can easily recover from this). Destroying the second brain near his tail will paralyze him.

Superman weaknesses: Kryptonite, red stellar radiation, magic.
 
Don't use VS Battles as an accurate statement of character's strenght

At best, use it as a loose guide
 
I agree with everything Jcogginsa said. I'd also like to add Godzilla would probably have had the same kind of cultural impact on Fusionverse Japan as Superman would have on Fusionverse America. In America, people would be inspired to become like Superman, leading to the rise of super powered vigilantes as well as super soldier programs like Captain America and Weapon X as the Government tries to capitalise on that desire to make the next Superman.

Godzilla is like a walking nuclear disaster, which would have inspired the people to build ways to fight or at least hold off Godzilla, hence why the creation of robotics which would become mechs (hence why Japan has more giant robots than America), as well as a desire for a more organised government structure for it's superheroes because they don't have a vigilante to idolize.

Also Godzilla and Superman have also fought their share of aliens. No real reason, I just liked to mention it.

5elementsage said:
Alright, I've got Post-Crisis Superman (because Post-Flashpoint is incomplete) and composite Godzilla up on VS Battles Wiki. Let's see how they compare, to see if one would just stomp the other and render this rivalry moot.
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Looks even enough to me. Intelligence isn't a super deciding factor given Superman was killed by Doomsday who if anything is less sentient than Godzilla.

Regardless I think we just need to accept that our versions of the characters are going to be their own versions, unique to Fusionfall. They won't match exactly with every power ever displayed, and that's ok.
 
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Condensed analysis

They're the same tier at base, same attack potency, same striking strength. same base durability, same range.

Godzilla can prey on Superman's enhanced senses with that intimidation aura (which has been known to induce suicide). His regeneration is better. He can rapidly adapt to Superman's attacks and defenses, and can use vibration manipulation to overcome his durability (but cannot disintegrate him outright). He can weigh him down with Gravity Manipulation. He can use 4th Wall Awareness and Breaking the Fourth Wall to know what Superman's weaknesses are. Godzilla's Giga Blast and Red Spiral Particle Breath can negate regeneration. Infinite Heat Ray is the strongest version of Red Spiral, that constantly gains power in use with no upper limit. Heavenly Spiral Ray has potential Spatial Destruction or Dimensional Destruction properties. His Power-Up Godzilla form is a 10x multiplier on all aspects. Attacks such as the Charged Particle Beam and the Plasma Cutter can use magical energy, which would address one of Superman's weaknesses.

Superman's best bet is his heat vision, but Godzilla has extreme heat, fire, and matter manipulation resistances. Torquasm Vo lets him create illusions Godzilla has no defense against, except rapid adaptation. Superman may be able to absorb Godzilla's beam attacks. He is much faster than Godzilla, has a higher Lifting Strength, has infinitely more stamina, and is somewhat smarter (but not much).

Superman Camp: Putting all he's got and a solar bath into a single blast of Heat Vision, he could probably cause Godzilla to detonate (a temporary solution). Throwing Godzilla into space, the sun, or a black hole would do nothing, so those options are out.

Godzilla Camp: Even without magic and the 4th wall, Godzilla could weigh him down with gravity manipulation, weaken his durability with vibrations, then hit him with Giga Blast or Red Spiral. Toss in Power-Up Godzilla, and we've got a 10x multiplier on the gravity, vibrations, and the beam attack itself.

Verdict: I was wrong, this fight is a LOT closer than I would have thought.

Anyway, you guys keep chatting, I need to go. I'll be back tomorrow.
 
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