From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
On second thought, Palasides probably is the best choice. Arrow Lake will take some time for them to want to shed their blood with us, but a Palaside is effective as soon as it's built/improved.
Still unsure on the Prisoners though, Japanime brought good points for keeping them alive, but it just rankles me to give them this courtesy when they've shown that they're unwilling to treat their own prisoners well.
I'll be abstaining on the Prisoner vote.
On second thought, Palasides probably is the best choice. Arrow Lake will take some time for them to want to shed their blood with us, but a Palaside is effective as soon as it's built/improved.
Still unsure on the Prisoners though, Japanime brought good points for keeping them alive, but it just rankles me to give them this courtesy when they've shown that they're unwilling to treat their own prisoners well.
I'll be abstaining on the Prisoner vote.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
[X] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
Ah what the hell, doing the kind thing is often hard, but we do have principles, and the last thing we need is to make the murder of prisoners normal. We need to win the ideological battle if we're to come out of this conflict smelling better than the Hundred Band since that'll help a lot when we negotiate and make allies, and we really do need them.
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
Ah what the hell, doing the kind thing is often hard, but we do have principles, and the last thing we need is to make the murder of prisoners normal. We need to win the ideological battle if we're to come out of this conflict smelling better than the Hundred Band since that'll help a lot when we negotiate and make allies, and we really do need them.
- Location
- USA
As a reminder here is all we know so far about the Arrow Lake Tribe. They are a friendly group of traders. Unlike the Hundred Bands who first approached us for trade, the Arrow Lake Tribe did not seem to know we are or expect us to the Fingersmen Tribe who held this point before. To me that suggests that the Arrow Lake Tribe are a friendly tribe of traders and explorers. The fact that they brought gifts as well despite not knowing who could inhabit this area seems to suggest to me that they are used to friendly contact, probably due to the value of their two trade goods likely ensuring them a peaceful response. While this may also be conjecture I don't think that the Arrow Lake Tribe have had contact with the Hundred Bands before. In the text it says that the Arrow Lake Tribe came from the southeast of us.
If we take a look at the image given to us by the QM above, the Arrow Lake Tribe must have come from one of the smaller streams or pathways from the southeast near the juncture of the Fingers. What that means to me is that the Arrow Lake Tribe could not have possibly met the Northern or Southern Hundred Bands through the travel by canoe and river. When we look at their positions on the Great River, we can see that there are no branching tributaries or streams that lead to their location on the map. Aside from the information that this tribe will likely not have met the Hundred Bands, in geographic terms it makes things much harder for us when it calls for propositioning aid from them.
What this means is that in order to the Arrow Lake Tribe to assist us in this war they will have to either use our Fingers settlement as a forward operating base to strike from, as their home settlement is not likely near the fighting zone, or try to attack by land, which is not only more dangerous due to the travel times involved but also due to the unknown distance between us. Strategically it should also be noted that in any war with the Arrow Lake Tribe as our allies we will likely not have their full support all year round. The nature of the economy and how the seasons go makes it so that for a portion of the year the Arrow Lake Tribe's hunters will likely be occupied trying to feed their own people as well, meaning that firstly any force they do commit to us likely won't be a large one as they will need hunters of their own to produce food and protect themselves. Secondly their hunters can only aid us during certain times of the year as during the other times they will probably be at home helping their own tribe in larger endeavors. That means that any defense they give us through coalition building is temporary. If we build a coalition with them we will need to use their forces wisely, most likely in an alpha strike raid that cripples the Hundred Bands long enough for us to be sure that they won't have the capacity to retaliate while our allies are away.
All of those factors above make it so that I would rather we learn our lesson from before when we didn't take the palisade choice the first time and learn from it now by building a stronger palisade for our key Fingers settlement. Either way, we will need the Fingers to be strong if we are to build a coalition with the Arrow Lake Tribe.
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
Swayed to Palisade. But for the prisoners, they killed the prisoners THEY took and the last workers we had from them were spies(and thus trusted to maintain their loyalties despite years away from home).
So fuck it, these guys can't be trusted
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
Swayed to Palisade. But for the prisoners, they killed the prisoners THEY took and the last workers we had from them were spies(and thus trusted to maintain their loyalties despite years away from home).
So fuck it, these guys can't be trusted
ThatGazzer
Minds Eye Bind
- Location
- PNW
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[X] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
It is the honorable thing to do. They wronged us, they owe us a debt, let them repay it. No debt is beyond payment, even ours, as painful as it is. Let them work to repay it, to feed those who have been wronged. To kill them is to let them flee to the underworld, where they shall surely be judged, but be beyond repayment of the debt they now owe.
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
It is the honorable thing to do. They wronged us, they owe us a debt, let them repay it. No debt is beyond payment, even ours, as painful as it is. Let them work to repay it, to feed those who have been wronged. To kill them is to let them flee to the underworld, where they shall surely be judged, but be beyond repayment of the debt they now owe.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
Didn't the two last options give +2 Stability? or did we lose 2 more stability and didn't move?
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- Location
- USA
Pretty sure this page isn't updated yet based on the date below for when it was modified.
- Location
- Hawaii
[X] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Oh, ok. That makes sense.
You're actually at Stab 1/Legitimacy 1. I haven't updated the front page.
Did the Hundred Bands steal from you? Do you know for certain that's how things went down?
They killed four. The only reason that they killed them was because they were actively making it difficult to escape while you were pursuing them. When hostages resist and the police are shooting at the kidnapper, hostages tend to die.
You actually drove them to murder. If you had kept the prisoners of war they sold you secured in your camp, they wouldn't have escaped and ravaged the back flank of the Hundred Bands. Killing the captives became about self-defense.
Pretty much the same. Any of their people that you caught that night were slain.
There was a pragmatic choice in killing the elderly; they were definitely too slow in order to take as prisoners. If they had taken them, they would've been easier to catch. There are other reasons too that they killed them beyond simple blood lust.
They actually don't; there's a mountain range in the way. The mountain range isn't in the map yet, but the entire area between the Hundred Bands and Arrow Lake is mountainous.
There is, it's just mostly covered up by your borders. If you look to the right of the Northern Hundred Bands' northernmost border, along the edge of the map is a small river that snakes between two hills.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Ah the good old, "your not perfect, or working completely in our interest" reason to murder people. Love it, unfortunately basic diplomacy hasn't really developed that much so we couldn't apologize or offer reparations one time.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Where did the prisoners come from them? And did we really also do the pushing old people into burning buildings and collecting other old people on piles to have their heads bashed in one by one thing? From your two posts the People both considered such things horrible when done to them and there are others speaking out against murdering helpless people. Which is why I had the impression that the prisoners were enemy combatants and such.
I guess it doesn't work well with our current justice and honor values, but wouldn't simply leaving the elders be have been an option as well? It's not like they are any danger, either of participating in a counter-raid or of mothering new raiders.
Still not our fault.
They're the ones who approached us about selling their prisoners of war in the first place. They're the ones who thought it was a good idea to sell their prisoners to us without bothering to consider how we might treat those prisoners they wanted to get rid of regardless. Our only fault is being more humane and civilized than they were, a fault I'm glad we had toward their prisoners all the same.
And it's still the Hundred Bands fault. Everything they have done has been a bad decisions that has created a problem, everything we have done has been in reaction to their terrible decision making.
They could have broken off contact with us when they realized we weren't treating our prisoners from them in a way that benefited them.
They could have accepted the inherent risks that came with sending a spy into our midst to steal our secrets.
They could have taken the hint to stop messing with us when we kicked their butts the first time.
Anywhere along the lines, they could have taken the bloody hint, broken off contact, and kept their stupid distance.
Everything that has happened between The People and The Hundred Bands is on them.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Redium is just presenting how the The Hundred Bands are blaming us for the trouble from their perspective.
Their perspective is wrong and bad and they should feel bad.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Yes, that is exactly what the People think.
Its also what the Hundred Bands think from their end too.
The prisoners mostly came from people you captured after who had fled into the night. There are a lot of enemy combatants, but there's a fairly large mix of non-combatant children and women in there as well. (It also depends on how you define combatants, you've captured a lot of men who never raised arms against you.)
The Hundred Bands also didn't push old people into burning buildings. Burning buildings collapsed onto old people huddling inside them. After each raid was over, both you and the Hundred Bands executed the captives you had on hand. When the Hundred Bands did it, it was out of a twisted sense of mercy. When you did it, it was for revenge.
If they left them, what would happen? Remember, they expected you to melt away in the night. If they left the elders alone in an abandoned ruin, what was likely to happen? Chances are they starve. They believed instant death was better than that. Even if you went back to pick up the elders (not knowing they were there and take a risk braving where the enemy might be), they would've been net negative food producers when all of your supplies and structures had been wiped out. Caring for them would've meant starvation. Abandoning the elders would've been the logical, ruthless choice. Killing them was mercy.
If you adopt the prisoners fully into your tribe, they're actions are your problem. Allowing them to hit the Hundred Bands was provocation and a cassus belli. If you adopt them, they're family and kin are recognized to be responsible for the actions of their family members. They would have a duty to prevent their family members from committing crimes.
Not really. If they had, they would've lost access to sugar. Not only is that indescribably valuable since it's one of two known methods of preserving food, but refined sugar is addictive. For a culture that only ever experiences otherwise bland food, having access to refined sugar is literally addictive to them.
It also wouldn't have done anything about your adoptees raiding them.
This information is OOC, but the Hundred Bands never made a concentrated effort to try and steal sugar production from you. One of their Heroes got it into their head to try and discover the process so that they could take it back to their tribe. They were trying to cut the Gordian Knot of needing sugar (for Stab and food preservation) and constantly absorbing low level raids from your adoptees.
The tribe never approved such an action. From their perspective, their children go off to deliver an expected shipment to you, only to be viciously murdered. Since you never talked, there was no way to realize this. If the Hundred Bands had heard from you (Trade: Hundred Bands) then they would've apologized and paid reparations for the attempted theft and the subsequent raid. Even after the southern Big Man took over, he would've been exiled or given over to you had the Hundred Bands known you weren't deliberately tweaking their noses and murdering their people. Not any more, though, there's too much bad blood.
This is the same situation as with the Peace Seekers, writ large. Lack of diplomatic actions leads to conflict.
Sounds like we need to talk with people more...
EDIT: Though, on the flipside; why is it that the burden of diplomacy in these games always seems to be on the players? Thinking back on other games with a similar system, it kinda seems like other powers/groups rarely talked with the players unless the players initiated it.
EDIT: Though, on the flipside; why is it that the burden of diplomacy in these games always seems to be on the players? Thinking back on other games with a similar system, it kinda seems like other powers/groups rarely talked with the players unless the players initiated it.
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- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Tool] Work on being better (+1 Legitimacy)
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Because that is what happened in RL and dumb, avoided stuff like this happens when it could have been avoided just by talking. But nobody (apart from the Sea Tribe in Yucatan) talks with anybody else if they can help because all have better things to do than talk to a bunch of annoying outsiders.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
No, the River Bend spoke with us, and it resulted in a friendly and mutually beneficial relationship. Not everything is going to go along swimmingly, alliances were destroyed or broken, because the messengers got lost, or took a bad fall and died, or were accidentally murdered by the people they were trying to forge an alliance with.
Heck, Genghis Khan almost didn't become the Great Khan, because Temujins former superior, Onkh Khan, was murdered by his own allies because they didn't believe he was who he said he was. This is how shit rolls.
EDIT: This is the dawn of mankind. Dumb little shit very quickly blows up into massive wars all the time because people are all busy trying to not starve, and don't have the time or inclination to send tribesfolk to some village days and days away to apologize for this or that.
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