From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
[X] [Lesson] Allowing a Known Enemy to Recover! (+1 Stab)
[X] [Action] Fight Back! (Raid: Hundred Band, at least +1 Stab)
[X] [Action] Fight Back! (Raid: Hundred Band, at least +1 Stab)
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
One thing I really like about this game, is that the more sophisticated things become, the more simplistic they turn out to be. There is no secret technology you need to unlock before you can build walls, it's the simplest thing. But people are coming out of an age where there were multiple branches of homo. Its the simplest thing, but it's simply never occured to people to do it like that before now.
Its so simple, all you need is someone to see someone else doing it and they go 'aha'. But it's also the biggest game changer.
Its so simple, all you need is someone to see someone else doing it and they go 'aha'. But it's also the biggest game changer.
I wouldn't doubt there are a lot of people who find it weird.
I know I certainly do. Possibly 'did' depending on if the vote's shifted enough.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I mean thats kind of a consequence of there literally being a higher form of beings that gather together to make decisions, they have different interests and goals, so getting them to be coherent is hard.
No wonder all the ancient mythologies about the various pantheons had such messed up stories.
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Yes, you would hit them with an immediate raid.
If you hadn't hit the Hundred Bands with a counter-raid, they had a chance to pick up all of your unique technologies. They still had a chance if you did, but it would be penalized by the degree of success you had on your counter raid. I rolled for it and while they wouldn't have gotten sugar, they would've gotten pemmican without your counterattack. Honestly, them getting that would've been bad. It makes raiding substantially easier since it allows increased range and food storage.
In the case of a tie, the most recent vote decides it.
Pretty much a defining trait in humanity is not only the ability to see someone else's actions and then replicate them yourself, but also to actually ask other people how to get things done. That latter bit is actually unique; animals that have been taught sign language or can speak like parrots, will virtually never ask questions. The concept that they can acquire knowledge second hand, from discussion or communication, simply doesn't occur to them. Even in highly intelligent animals like apes or dolphins.
Many factors go into determining which inventions actually get transmitted. Ones kept secret, ones that are ritualized, magic, ones that are small scale or can't be seen; all of those are less likely to be reproduced by others. There's also resources to consider as well. The Hundred Bands, for example, can't steal fired bricks from you. The soil that the Hundred Bands are built on is low in clay so they wouldn't have much use for them if they figured them out from your captives. They're going to be ubiquitous for you since virtually every shovelful of dirt is clay.
Access to a consistent resource is also a key consideration. You actually managed to get rice cultivation this turn (even though it hasn't shown up yet in narrative yet - it will) and that's a critical departure from most of history. Having a farmed plant suddenly and instantly ties you to the land and incentives you to begin improving it. That's why the invention of farming was so critical. Someone from 4,000 BCE Egypt would struggle in 3,000 BCE Egypt while someone from Africa circa 50,000 BCE would find life virtually unchanged until 11,000 BCE.
To some extent, though, it's also a game conceit. Every tribe started with equivalent technology and then developed independently. I'd already had the geography set before hand, so it was pretty much that and interactions between different tribes that cascaded out into differences. You haven't even seen all of the tribes I've marked up yet; there's at least three which have rolled absurdly poorly on their contact rolls with you so they've been excessively delayed.
Vote's Closed for Tonight
[X] [Lesson] Allowing a Known Enemy to Recover! (+1 Stab)
[X] [Action] Fight Back! (Raid: Hundred Band, at least +1 Stab)
Wins, but there won't be an update until at least tomorrow.
In the meantime, have your new Value to tide you over.
Value Evolved: Bellicose Behaviour -> Flat Arrow Outlook
When the People hunt beasts, their arrows are set vertically; when they hunt other tribes, their arrows are set horizontally — all the better to spear through an unsuspecting target's ribs. Violence is a fact of life to the People. The question is not: "Why use violence?", but "When can violence be used?" It is another tool within their arsenal to respond to the world and among all the tools they wield, it is a keen one indeed.
Pros: The consequences of violence are more tolerable; increased martial skill, especially among specialists; People are seen as intimidating
Cons: Martial skill is desirable; violence is an acceptable solution to problem-solving
Pros: The consequences of violence are more tolerable; increased martial skill, especially among specialists; People are seen as intimidating
Cons: Martial skill is desirable; violence is an acceptable solution to problem-solving
Eh, it was my not so subtle way of hinting that you were going to give yourselves a fairly nasty Debilitating Belief if you did that. Those options would've locked you into preemptive wars of self-defense against most of the tribes you encounter.
No wonder all the ancient mythologies about the various pantheons had such messed up stories.
A lot of the problems are also caused by having the same story told in a hundred different ways. It's constantly reskinned and equated as being 'the same' even when there's a multitude of possible interpretations.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
So wait approximately what year would we be in? How fast did we actually develop agriculture?
What would Defending completely have given us?
For that matter what was the debilitating belief?
Ah, the old "we had to destroy them before they had a chance to do it to us first" philosophy.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
It DOES make perfect sense... if we had any actual ability to TELL when being preemptive is warranted.Ah, the old "we had to destroy them before they had a chance to do it to us first" philosophy.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
You mean it isn't all the time
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Very true, we should just kill everyone, because its SO obvious they want to kill us first... Thats why we killed THEM first, those filthy future traitors.You mean it isn't all the time
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Now your getting it.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
Rice Fields, yay!
Violence becoming the first tool to every problem has its own share of problems, but it's a very potent tool indeed and considering the era and how seemingly everyone wants to mess with us, it's a value we can live with. The Intimidation is helpful in keeping ourselves safe too, though, it may present some problems when it comes to befriending Arrow Lake which we desperately need to do after burning down both the North and South Hundred Bands. We still have the now-probably-dead Peace Seekers and their new Overlords to deal with after all, and a friendly face so we don't go full Xenophobia would help us in the long run.
Violence becoming the first tool to every problem has its own share of problems, but it's a very potent tool indeed and considering the era and how seemingly everyone wants to mess with us, it's a value we can live with. The Intimidation is helpful in keeping ourselves safe too, though, it may present some problems when it comes to befriending Arrow Lake which we desperately need to do after burning down both the North and South Hundred Bands. We still have the now-probably-dead Peace Seekers and their new Overlords to deal with after all, and a friendly face so we don't go full Xenophobia would help us in the long run.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Whhaa? How can we go Xenophobic? Everyone will be dead when we preempt their inevitable betrayal!
(I glad we got rice to, RICE IS LOVE, RICE IS LIFE!)
- Location
- Canada
We should set up an arena system if violence is going to become the norm for problem solving, best to set up an area for people who argue enough for it to devolve to fists. This way matters such as this is megated for duels in a public setting happens. Which I think would be better and a good incentive to also solve problems before they reach the ring/pits/slaughter dome.
- Location
- Canada
Maybe now that I think about that Im glade we didnt, we have two settlements weeks apart from each other!
I'm very deliberately choosing not to nail myself down to a particular timeline. As far as I've decided, you're in the late Neolithic and before the Chalcolithic age. I know that SV is going to race towards the shinnies on the tech tree, so I don't want to accidentally bracket myself into a timeline that would strip away all challenge.
Defending would've given you Stone-Skinned. The biggest thing that it did for you would be increasing the effectiveness of defensive works and unlocking a few different defense megaprojects; even a Wonder if you proceeded down the path far enough. The downside of the trait line would be that it requires elevated defensive commitments.
You're probably going to have a change to grab it again in the future. You still have Honour slots left open and you're going to be involved in a war. That's something that's likely to generate either Aggression values (filled by Flat Arrow Outlook), Elite values (filled by Honoured Elite), Defensive values, or Loyalty values.
Closed Heart. It would've promoted you walling yourself off from the world while striking viciously at anyone that could've threatened you. There's elements of that in Flat Arrow Outlook, but it doesn't have the same strain of isolation baked into it. The isolation would've caused you to close off from diplomatic contact and lash out at (perceived) slights or threats. With Flat Arrow Outlook, you at least maintain the ability to check if something is a threat before smiting. Stone-Skinned has that sense of isolation, but doesn't require that you strike out.
If Stone-Skinned and Flat Arrow Outlook develop at different times, they're significantly less likely to be debilitating than if you put shades of them into the same belief.
You need to increase the level of Ritualization in your society before you can really do that. You need to develop social concepts that limit actions towards people based on the situation or their class.
The beginning of this is currently available if you look for it.
zamin
The Watcher in the Dark
Am I the only one who's tempted to turn our people into AU Sparta? Though honestly considering how Spartan society was run that might be going just a bit too far...
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
I don't think we can, the Spartans relied on Helots to fuel their economy too much, and we've sworn off on slavery so far.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Now I'm curious what other super weird combinations would have given us. Like "Strike back"+"Not enough humility". Or "Do nothing" and one of the first two lessons. Not that SV would have ever picked to do nothing in such a situation.
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I'm completely fine with people writing omakes. To be honest, I find it very encouraging for people to do so. If you have any questions, PM me and I'll answer those questions. I may not answer everything, but I'll give it a shot.
10.2 Riverine Skirmish
[X] [Lesson] Allowing a Known Enemy to Recover! (+1 Stab)
[X] [Action] Fight Back! (Raid: Hundred Band, at least +1 Stab)
The People had erred. Everyone agreed, having left the Hundred Band to their own devices was a mistake. While, fundamentally, the People had extracted their retribution for the attack upon their shores, it had merely left the Hundred Bands with the desire to extract their own baseless retribution in turn. Once the People knew that they had an enemy, it was best to act against them consistently. To give them time to recover would be to invite them to attack again in the future. The question they should ask was not: "Is violence the answer?" but "Has enough violence been applied?"
Value Evolved: Bellicose Behaviour -> Flat Arrow Outlook
Violence was a tool to be used. One to be honed, with the only real question being about how it would be most effectively applied. There were some situations where violence wasn't the solution, but there was no reason not to consider it.
With that revelation in mind, the best of the People's hunters departed almost immediately, following in the wake of the Hundred Bands. As long as they struck quickly, there was no way the the Hundred Bands would expect their vengeance. No one knew if the Hundred Bands knew of Crystal Lake and the fact that it was easily as large as the Fingers.
They likely knew that the People had other settlements; every tribe had multiple places where they lived. But having another center like the People did? That was unusual. The Peace Seekers, Barrow Builders, and Lakers all had only one center. Surrounding that center, however, were numerous smaller semi-permanent living spaces. The People had many with a few day's travel of both the Fingers and Crystal Lake. They existed primarily as temporary camps, sites of valuable resources, and stopover points for those hunting for food. Those camps were transient, primarily inhabited by itinerant, working men who would reside there for a few days, a week at most, before returning to their true settlement.
It was the tribe's central settlement, its heart, that served as a safe place to keep the young and elderly or build up sufficient stocks to survive the winter. Most of their people resided there when they didn't work. If it was smashed, such as had been nearly one to the Fingers, then there was little holding a tribe together. It would be like a great stone weighing down a rawhide bundle flapping in the breeze. Without the weight, the rawhide strings would simply blow away. Coordination dissolving into disorder.
That was likely the expectations the Hundred Bands had for the People. That they would simply drift away. It was a logical conclusion; violence was dangerous. It was much, much safer in order to break away and give ground that it was to stand up to violent confrontation.
It was too bad, then, that the Hundred Bands did not know the People.
When the People's hunters finally found the Hundred Band, they were halfway back to their northernmost camp. The raiders' canoes were laden with ill gotten treasure and screaming, shouting captives. The People's bows quickly opened up, reaping a deadly toll on the raiders' numbers. Their sinew-backed strength gave the People a slight, but noticeable range advantage over that of the Hundred Bands. Only a small portion of the People's archers could even engage, those leading at the foremost edge of the pursuit, but it provided more arrow coverage than the Hundred Bands could produce. Having to fire backwards with screaming, fighting cargo in their canoes spoiled many of their shots. Even their wicker shields were useless, too large to effective use when on a canoe.
It was a slow and grinding slog, but the People were winning. Their enemy's only possible response was to turn and fight. An extremely unwise move when you're loaded down by cargo and in hostile territory.
That realization was why they did something different.
Instead of turning to fight, the Big Man snatched up the nearest captive and viciously dragged a knife of flint across her throat. Throwing the dying woman into the river, he screamed in the guttural language that the Hundred Bands so favoured. The murder and callous disrespect enraged the People. Their pursuit intensified. Then three more bodies hit the river.
The message suddenly became clear; continue the pursuit and you might catch them, but it would be over the corpses of everyone that you wanted to rescue. Slowly, the People came to a stop and allowed the Hundred Bands to escape. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but they didn't want to watch their kith and kin killed while they watched on helplessly. Biding their time and waiting for the perfect moment to strike was the smarter strategy of the day.
It was when the Hundred Bands thought themselves safe at their northernmost camp that the People struck again. Bonfires roared, and food was freely served while the sounds of celebration echoed across the dark water of the river. It pained the hunters to wait for nightfall, but they needed the cover of darkness. When they ambushed the enemy, they would have surprise.
And they did. The People fell upon the Hundred Bands like terrors in the night. Their camp lacked a palisade and the Ember-Eyes were more than willing to lead the assault. Their secret magic allowed them to approach in darkness and then sprinkle water on a torch to get it to almost instantly burst into flames. Hurling those onto the thatch roofs of the settlement quickly caused fires to blaze out of control. The People's hunters tore through the camp, arrows and spears freely stabbing at anything that fought or ran away.
The night was long and filled with blood, but by the end of it, the People had their vengeance. The Hundred Bands scattered into the wilderness. They still maintained a semblance of organization, especially around their Big Man, but the tempo of the battle had definitely changed. The skirmish was on, and that was an area in which the People excelled.
Months later, the People's hunters returned, exhausted to the Fingers. They had battled with the Hundred Bands up and down the river. They never quite managed to pin down and slay the Big Man, but he was noticeably wounded when he finally retreated from the People. It was difficult to tell, but it was likely that the Hundred Bands lost more in the end than the People. It was a very near thing, perhaps too near to really tell. If the Big Man that led the raids was merely one of five Big Men of the Southern Hundred Bands, then many wondered what would happen when they unified, or turned their eyes upon the People.
Given the situation, it was likely that the rising Big Man would quickly collapse and lose his leadership status. On the other hand, there was a very real risk that he would be able to parley some type of agreement with the other southern Big Men. The People had burned out the camp of the Northern Hundred Bands. While feuding, they did consider themselves to be kin of a kind. A call to vengeance and the acquisition of resources could easily be turned into another alliance.
Regardless, there was an aspect of the war that the People had to deal with immediately: prisoners. The procedures that they operated under after the sacking of the northern settlement were mostly ad hoc. Many of the People simply killed those they captured out of hand. Their anger at the devastation of the Fingers burned brightly in the backs of their minds. Others, however, refused to do that. It was murder they claimed, not true battle. Slaughtering helpless enemies had haunted the dreams of many of the People. Especially those unused to war and the dirty business of killing other men.
On the other hand, what were the People supposed to do with captives? Allowing them to go free, to offend again against the People and slay more was deeply discomforting. Some argued that they could be held, used as collateral for when the Hundred Bands captured some of their warriors. An exchange could be set up, warriors for warriors. That would, of course, mean feeding them, and having them sit around while their kin fought the People to riot.
"They could be put to work...?" a brave soul suggested.
In the end, what should the People do?
[ ] [Prisoners] Permaent labour
[ ] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
[ ] [Prisoners] Ransom Hundred Bands lack anything you want
[ ] [Prisoners] Kill them
Other questions surfaced afterwards. While violence was a key tool of the People, there were other ways to solve problems. What tools should the People focus on instead of violence?
[ ] [Tool] Building Coalitions (Trade: Arrow Lake)
[ ] [Tool] Deal with troublemakers (+1 Stab)
[ ] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[ ] [Tool] Work on being better (+1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Action] Fight Back! (Raid: Hundred Band, at least +1 Stab)
The People had erred. Everyone agreed, having left the Hundred Band to their own devices was a mistake. While, fundamentally, the People had extracted their retribution for the attack upon their shores, it had merely left the Hundred Bands with the desire to extract their own baseless retribution in turn. Once the People knew that they had an enemy, it was best to act against them consistently. To give them time to recover would be to invite them to attack again in the future. The question they should ask was not: "Is violence the answer?" but "Has enough violence been applied?"
Value Evolved: Bellicose Behaviour -> Flat Arrow Outlook
When the People hunt beasts, their arrows are set vertically; when they hunt other tribes, their arrows are set horizontally — all the better to spear through an unsuspecting target's ribs. Violence is a fact of life to the People. The question is not: "Why use violence?", but "When can violence be used?" It is another tool within their arsenal to respond to the world and among all the tools they wield, it is a keen one indeed.
Pros: The consequences of violence are more tolerable; increased martial skill, especially among specialists; People are seen as intimidating
Cons: Martial skill is desirable; violence is an acceptable solution to problem-solving
Pros: The consequences of violence are more tolerable; increased martial skill, especially among specialists; People are seen as intimidating
Cons: Martial skill is desirable; violence is an acceptable solution to problem-solving
Violence was a tool to be used. One to be honed, with the only real question being about how it would be most effectively applied. There were some situations where violence wasn't the solution, but there was no reason not to consider it.
With that revelation in mind, the best of the People's hunters departed almost immediately, following in the wake of the Hundred Bands. As long as they struck quickly, there was no way the the Hundred Bands would expect their vengeance. No one knew if the Hundred Bands knew of Crystal Lake and the fact that it was easily as large as the Fingers.
They likely knew that the People had other settlements; every tribe had multiple places where they lived. But having another center like the People did? That was unusual. The Peace Seekers, Barrow Builders, and Lakers all had only one center. Surrounding that center, however, were numerous smaller semi-permanent living spaces. The People had many with a few day's travel of both the Fingers and Crystal Lake. They existed primarily as temporary camps, sites of valuable resources, and stopover points for those hunting for food. Those camps were transient, primarily inhabited by itinerant, working men who would reside there for a few days, a week at most, before returning to their true settlement.
It was the tribe's central settlement, its heart, that served as a safe place to keep the young and elderly or build up sufficient stocks to survive the winter. Most of their people resided there when they didn't work. If it was smashed, such as had been nearly one to the Fingers, then there was little holding a tribe together. It would be like a great stone weighing down a rawhide bundle flapping in the breeze. Without the weight, the rawhide strings would simply blow away. Coordination dissolving into disorder.
That was likely the expectations the Hundred Bands had for the People. That they would simply drift away. It was a logical conclusion; violence was dangerous. It was much, much safer in order to break away and give ground that it was to stand up to violent confrontation.
It was too bad, then, that the Hundred Bands did not know the People.
When the People's hunters finally found the Hundred Band, they were halfway back to their northernmost camp. The raiders' canoes were laden with ill gotten treasure and screaming, shouting captives. The People's bows quickly opened up, reaping a deadly toll on the raiders' numbers. Their sinew-backed strength gave the People a slight, but noticeable range advantage over that of the Hundred Bands. Only a small portion of the People's archers could even engage, those leading at the foremost edge of the pursuit, but it provided more arrow coverage than the Hundred Bands could produce. Having to fire backwards with screaming, fighting cargo in their canoes spoiled many of their shots. Even their wicker shields were useless, too large to effective use when on a canoe.
It was a slow and grinding slog, but the People were winning. Their enemy's only possible response was to turn and fight. An extremely unwise move when you're loaded down by cargo and in hostile territory.
That realization was why they did something different.
Instead of turning to fight, the Big Man snatched up the nearest captive and viciously dragged a knife of flint across her throat. Throwing the dying woman into the river, he screamed in the guttural language that the Hundred Bands so favoured. The murder and callous disrespect enraged the People. Their pursuit intensified. Then three more bodies hit the river.
The message suddenly became clear; continue the pursuit and you might catch them, but it would be over the corpses of everyone that you wanted to rescue. Slowly, the People came to a stop and allowed the Hundred Bands to escape. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but they didn't want to watch their kith and kin killed while they watched on helplessly. Biding their time and waiting for the perfect moment to strike was the smarter strategy of the day.
It was when the Hundred Bands thought themselves safe at their northernmost camp that the People struck again. Bonfires roared, and food was freely served while the sounds of celebration echoed across the dark water of the river. It pained the hunters to wait for nightfall, but they needed the cover of darkness. When they ambushed the enemy, they would have surprise.
And they did. The People fell upon the Hundred Bands like terrors in the night. Their camp lacked a palisade and the Ember-Eyes were more than willing to lead the assault. Their secret magic allowed them to approach in darkness and then sprinkle water on a torch to get it to almost instantly burst into flames. Hurling those onto the thatch roofs of the settlement quickly caused fires to blaze out of control. The People's hunters tore through the camp, arrows and spears freely stabbing at anything that fought or ran away.
The night was long and filled with blood, but by the end of it, the People had their vengeance. The Hundred Bands scattered into the wilderness. They still maintained a semblance of organization, especially around their Big Man, but the tempo of the battle had definitely changed. The skirmish was on, and that was an area in which the People excelled.
Months later, the People's hunters returned, exhausted to the Fingers. They had battled with the Hundred Bands up and down the river. They never quite managed to pin down and slay the Big Man, but he was noticeably wounded when he finally retreated from the People. It was difficult to tell, but it was likely that the Hundred Bands lost more in the end than the People. It was a very near thing, perhaps too near to really tell. If the Big Man that led the raids was merely one of five Big Men of the Southern Hundred Bands, then many wondered what would happen when they unified, or turned their eyes upon the People.
Given the situation, it was likely that the rising Big Man would quickly collapse and lose his leadership status. On the other hand, there was a very real risk that he would be able to parley some type of agreement with the other southern Big Men. The People had burned out the camp of the Northern Hundred Bands. While feuding, they did consider themselves to be kin of a kind. A call to vengeance and the acquisition of resources could easily be turned into another alliance.
Regardless, there was an aspect of the war that the People had to deal with immediately: prisoners. The procedures that they operated under after the sacking of the northern settlement were mostly ad hoc. Many of the People simply killed those they captured out of hand. Their anger at the devastation of the Fingers burned brightly in the backs of their minds. Others, however, refused to do that. It was murder they claimed, not true battle. Slaughtering helpless enemies had haunted the dreams of many of the People. Especially those unused to war and the dirty business of killing other men.
On the other hand, what were the People supposed to do with captives? Allowing them to go free, to offend again against the People and slay more was deeply discomforting. Some argued that they could be held, used as collateral for when the Hundred Bands captured some of their warriors. An exchange could be set up, warriors for warriors. That would, of course, mean feeding them, and having them sit around while their kin fought the People to riot.
"They could be put to work...?" a brave soul suggested.
In the end, what should the People do?
[ ] [Prisoners] Permaent labour
[ ] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
[ ] [Prisoners] Kill them
Other questions surfaced afterwards. While violence was a key tool of the People, there were other ways to solve problems. What tools should the People focus on instead of violence?
[ ] [Tool] Building Coalitions (Trade: Arrow Lake)
[ ] [Tool] Deal with troublemakers (+1 Stab)
[ ] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[ ] [Tool] Work on being better (+1 Legitimacy)