- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Funny thing is that of all the things that could be considered something of the kind (preservatives, precious stones, special materials) we currently have a near monopoly in the region, making any idea of tribute pretty pointless.
Huh. That's another reason we should explore and invest in relations. The moment we find someone who has something we like and can bring home, we should near explode in wealth. Currently the things to look for that I can think of would be salt and dye.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
We really should save Trade: Arrow Lake for next turn, guys. It's a long term project whose effects aren't immediately relevant to our biggest problem, which is getting Raided and having the Fingers' Settlement burned down, again, after we just rebuilt it.
Next turn, we can start on cultivating friendships and eventually alliances, but we can't do that if we're busy panicking that the Fingers is on fire, again.
It's a war of attrition and we can bleed the Hundred Band faster if they're ineffectively trying to break down our new and improved palaside while getting shot and set on fire.
Next turn, we can start on cultivating friendships and eventually alliances, but we can't do that if we're busy panicking that the Fingers is on fire, again.
It's a war of attrition and we can bleed the Hundred Band faster if they're ineffectively trying to break down our new and improved palaside while getting shot and set on fire.
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Yep, though our current minor glut in said resources meant that we had little internal motive to go out there and find trade partners, since as far as our people knew, they didn't have much to trade(so they traded slaves)
Really for most of history, imprisonment was almost always for politicals, who could not be killed without immediate and significant retaliation, nor freed because of their ability to coordinate your enemies.
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
[X] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
- Location
- St. Petersburg
Turns last approximately for a generation here. It is not an immidiate response.
Both the Palisade and the Coalition offer ways to protect ourselves, one by our own forces, and the other by forging ties since what we are fearing is another coalition which has numerical superiority.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
We need 3 straight turns of constant Trading for it to be a regular action our people do without us having to pick it, before then, I doubt 1 Turn of Trade is going to have Arrow Lake willing to die for us when we have no Diplo Heroes or Traditions.
Besides, the Hundred Bands already have numerical superiority over us. I doubt the addition of Arrow Lake to our side will offset the Bands' numerical advantage since Arrow Lake won't be able to reach the Fingers' settlement in time to defend from a surprise attack unless they station their hunters there full-time. I doubt they will considering they have families to feed.
On the attack, Arrow Lake will be helpful but defense is our priority right now. We can form a coalition after we've secured the Fingers.
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- Location
- United States
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
Guess I'll change my vote so we get the more immediate benefit. Still think it's a really bad idea to try to use them as labor. They'll sabotage us.
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
Guess I'll change my vote so we get the more immediate benefit. Still think it's a really bad idea to try to use them as labor. They'll sabotage us.
- Location
- Italia
[X] [Prisoners] Kill them
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
What are the odds we'll then find something else to take priority over any kind of trade efforts?
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Very high.
Given what's been said about our current diplomatic situation, that's exactly what I'm worried about.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, Yucatan has proven that it is possible to get enough voter control to engage in diplomacy so we will just have to push to make friends with what tribes we can. Arrow Lake for sure, but I feel that approaching the Peace Seekers and the North Lake Raiders might be worth it if only to see where we stand with them. Maybe the Burrow Builders too if we can. The Hundred Bands are a write-off at this point unfortunately, but perhaps we can form friendships with other groups
10.3 Captivated and Cultivated
[X] [Prisoners] Temporary labour/prisoner exchange
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
After the dramatic confrontation at the camp of northernmost camp of the Hundred Bands, the war between them and the People slowly settled into stalemate. The southern reaches of the Hundred Bands was extremely distant from the Fingers; many guessed that the distance was greater than the distance between the Fingers and Crystal Lake. A single raid took more than a moon to depart, attack, and then return. There was simply no way to keep up the pace that had occurred previously.
Organizing any type of large scale attack quickly proved to be impossible. The People simply couldn't afford to have so many of their best doing something other than hunting. Even if a raiding party foraged while they moved, they could only spend a fraction of the time finding food that they would normally when around camp. Gathering enough food so that they could provide all of their own supplies while on the move tended to slow the raiders' progress to a crawl. At top speed, where they didn't have to source their supplies, a group of raiders could traverse in a day what would take closer to a week if the needed to forage everything from rations to replacement arrowheads or canoes.
What was needed to truly enable the People to strike at the heart of the Hundred Bands was a point of resupply. Somewhere where the raiders could stop, rest, and replenish their stocks of food. That would allow them to keep their strategic speed and attack or retreat effectively. Of course, the Hundred Bands realized that too. The conflict between the People and the Hundred Bands slowly focused upon finding that perfect resupply point in the wild lands along the river.
As soon as the People started to build up, the Hundred Bands would organize a massive assault and force them back. Of course, the opposite was true as well; every time the Hundred Bands became ambitious, the People could easily burn them out. Trying to keep a large force enough force to protect the supply point just made everything exponentially difficult. For every raider in defense, many more would need to stand behind them; gathering food, transporting it, cooking it, fashioning weapons, and countless other necessary tasks.
It looked like the People would have to set up an entire settlement along the river just to make striking at the Hundred Bands possible!
As the years rolled by, the frequency of the conflict slowly wore down. No longer could the People or the Hundred Bands be so casual with supplies that would get them nothing in return. Clashes still occurred, but their natural quickly changed. Predominantly, they started to be small groups solely organized of young men. These raiders sought to prove their prowess and demonstrate their fitness both as mates and as future Big Men. There was much renown in victory and the skills needed to ensure it were the same as would make an effective leader. Personal strength, organization, diplomacy, woodcraft; everything that was needed to lead the People as a whole was trained on a small scale.
Of course, issues with that slowly started to arise. Many of the young men quickly racked up massive debts to other members of the People. Acquiring canoes, weapons, food, and other supplies took immense amounts of effort. It was simply not feasible for one person to put everything together. Normally, these debts would be resolved out of simple gratitude or were arranged to be paid later. It had, however, become apparent that this was no longer possible. Many raiders spent months in the field, the amount of value that they could produce to offset their debts in their off time simply wasn't enough. Some of them had also taken on truly prodigious amounts of debt in order to organize and outfit larger raids.
Eventually, many of the debt holders came before the Big Man for redress. They had given and given and given in good faith and now they were looking to become Debtors themselves from all the debts they themselves had. The Big Man was quick to agree that them being branded Debtors was unjust. On the other hand, simply going through the traditional route of debt collection was going to have problems. Many of the raiders had quickly become skilled at violence. Forcing them to become Debtors would not go over well. They had sacrificed to become raiders and fulfilled a service that was necessary to the People in protecting them from the vicious Hundred Bands. Making them Debtors would also be unjust (and likely result in violence).
In solution, he could see a few choices. First, recognize raiders in the same way shaman were recognized. Food and supplies would be provided to them at the discretion of the Big Man in recognition for the valuable service that they provided. Second, he could spread raiding duties around. Instead of depending on a small core of raiders who continually racked up debt, he could spread the duties of raiding around. The rotation would likely need to be random in nature and draw on virtually all segments of the People's society in order to sufficiently dilute debts amongst everyone. His last choice, was to recognize raiding debts as being owed by the enemy.
[ ] [War Debt] Recognize Raiders as akin to Shaman
[ ] [War Debt] Select Raiders by Lot
[ ] [War Debt] Recognize the labour of captives as paying their captor's debts
After the initial slaughter when the People stormed the Hundred Bands camp, they had changed how things occurred. Many had decried the bloodshed of the sack, asking how they would be different from the Hundred Bands if they were so cruel. Many had become uncomfortable at the sheer level of blood and slaughter unleashed in that night. While violence was a tool to be used, some part of the People's hearts were still unsure. A gentle memory of childhood the lingered, perhaps?
The Elders were also quick to warn against unrelenting bloodshed as well. By killing and killing and killing, it would just escalate the conflict with the Hundred Bands. Questions also arose as to how other tribes would react to the People's insistence on blood. Many would become uncomfortable or fearful, wondering if they could be next. There was also justice to consider. The People's attack on the Hundred Bands camp had been proportional to what had occurred at the Fingers, plus additional punishment. To commit to killing all of the Hundred Bands would no longer be punishment, but blood to appease old wounds.
Instead, what had happened was that raiders of the Hundred Bands caught out were captured and sequestered away in the People's territory so that they were no longer an immediate threat. The People could not feed them if they did nothing, so they were quietly put to work; gathering clay for bricks, tanning leather, chopping wood; many of the tasks that Debtors were normally assigned. Those tasks had to be done by someone and they freed up the People to acquire more food to feed them. They essentially became Debtors over time, taking food in exchange for completing assigned labour.
The only difference was that they could be held in reserve in order to ensure 'good' behaviour from the Hundred Bands. If they captured some of the People as prisoners, the two groups could be exchanged. It also lowered the general level of violence. No one wanted to endanger kin held by the enemy by being too vicious.
Value Gained: Stone-Skinned!
Now that the situation had stabilized, the People finally had time to focus on other things. Chiefly among them was shoring up weakness. From the two attacks upon the Fingers, the People had realized that their palisade had noticeable weaknesses. Once an enemy made it to the base of the palisade, they were extremely difficult to dislodge. They could easily chop through the palisade which completely voided its protective purpose. The People needed to find some way to overcome the problem, the only question was how?
[ ] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
[ ] [Wall] Build elevated platforms form which the People can fire!
[ ] [Wall] Stagger the palisade, build multiple layers of defenses!
As the years passed and a new generation slowly assumed mantles of leadership, a shaman made a startling discovery. She knew why the spirits showed favour to Debtors harvesting water-grass. She noticed that Debtors tended to bring less water-grass home each evening in their canoes. The difference was small, so it had often been overlooked, but it was easily noticed by someone trained in calculating weights to make lime. When she looked into the situation further, she realized how careless Debtors tended to be. Instead of carefully stripping the seeds from the grass stalks and into the canoe, they would let numerous seeds fall into the water so that they could complete their assigned collection faster.
A few handfuls of these seeds, rice, as she was calling it, thrown into the Great River confirmed that water-grass would grow where before it had not. There were still some mysteries; the rice wouldn't grow in a pool/pond of water, or in a clay pot of it, but it was enough to begin to really cultivating the plant. By setting aside some of the rice for future growing, the People could massively expand the range of the plant along the Great River basically at will. Given how easy it would be to expand the amount of food available to the People, the shaman's excitement was infectious.
Things were about to change.
[X] [Tool] Make being attacked difficult (Improve Palisade)
After the dramatic confrontation at the camp of northernmost camp of the Hundred Bands, the war between them and the People slowly settled into stalemate. The southern reaches of the Hundred Bands was extremely distant from the Fingers; many guessed that the distance was greater than the distance between the Fingers and Crystal Lake. A single raid took more than a moon to depart, attack, and then return. There was simply no way to keep up the pace that had occurred previously.
Organizing any type of large scale attack quickly proved to be impossible. The People simply couldn't afford to have so many of their best doing something other than hunting. Even if a raiding party foraged while they moved, they could only spend a fraction of the time finding food that they would normally when around camp. Gathering enough food so that they could provide all of their own supplies while on the move tended to slow the raiders' progress to a crawl. At top speed, where they didn't have to source their supplies, a group of raiders could traverse in a day what would take closer to a week if the needed to forage everything from rations to replacement arrowheads or canoes.
What was needed to truly enable the People to strike at the heart of the Hundred Bands was a point of resupply. Somewhere where the raiders could stop, rest, and replenish their stocks of food. That would allow them to keep their strategic speed and attack or retreat effectively. Of course, the Hundred Bands realized that too. The conflict between the People and the Hundred Bands slowly focused upon finding that perfect resupply point in the wild lands along the river.
As soon as the People started to build up, the Hundred Bands would organize a massive assault and force them back. Of course, the opposite was true as well; every time the Hundred Bands became ambitious, the People could easily burn them out. Trying to keep a large force enough force to protect the supply point just made everything exponentially difficult. For every raider in defense, many more would need to stand behind them; gathering food, transporting it, cooking it, fashioning weapons, and countless other necessary tasks.
It looked like the People would have to set up an entire settlement along the river just to make striking at the Hundred Bands possible!
As the years rolled by, the frequency of the conflict slowly wore down. No longer could the People or the Hundred Bands be so casual with supplies that would get them nothing in return. Clashes still occurred, but their natural quickly changed. Predominantly, they started to be small groups solely organized of young men. These raiders sought to prove their prowess and demonstrate their fitness both as mates and as future Big Men. There was much renown in victory and the skills needed to ensure it were the same as would make an effective leader. Personal strength, organization, diplomacy, woodcraft; everything that was needed to lead the People as a whole was trained on a small scale.
Of course, issues with that slowly started to arise. Many of the young men quickly racked up massive debts to other members of the People. Acquiring canoes, weapons, food, and other supplies took immense amounts of effort. It was simply not feasible for one person to put everything together. Normally, these debts would be resolved out of simple gratitude or were arranged to be paid later. It had, however, become apparent that this was no longer possible. Many raiders spent months in the field, the amount of value that they could produce to offset their debts in their off time simply wasn't enough. Some of them had also taken on truly prodigious amounts of debt in order to organize and outfit larger raids.
Eventually, many of the debt holders came before the Big Man for redress. They had given and given and given in good faith and now they were looking to become Debtors themselves from all the debts they themselves had. The Big Man was quick to agree that them being branded Debtors was unjust. On the other hand, simply going through the traditional route of debt collection was going to have problems. Many of the raiders had quickly become skilled at violence. Forcing them to become Debtors would not go over well. They had sacrificed to become raiders and fulfilled a service that was necessary to the People in protecting them from the vicious Hundred Bands. Making them Debtors would also be unjust (and likely result in violence).
In solution, he could see a few choices. First, recognize raiders in the same way shaman were recognized. Food and supplies would be provided to them at the discretion of the Big Man in recognition for the valuable service that they provided. Second, he could spread raiding duties around. Instead of depending on a small core of raiders who continually racked up debt, he could spread the duties of raiding around. The rotation would likely need to be random in nature and draw on virtually all segments of the People's society in order to sufficiently dilute debts amongst everyone. His last choice, was to recognize raiding debts as being owed by the enemy.
[ ] [War Debt] Recognize Raiders as akin to Shaman
[ ] [War Debt] Select Raiders by Lot
[ ] [War Debt] Recognize the labour of captives as paying their captor's debts
After the initial slaughter when the People stormed the Hundred Bands camp, they had changed how things occurred. Many had decried the bloodshed of the sack, asking how they would be different from the Hundred Bands if they were so cruel. Many had become uncomfortable at the sheer level of blood and slaughter unleashed in that night. While violence was a tool to be used, some part of the People's hearts were still unsure. A gentle memory of childhood the lingered, perhaps?
The Elders were also quick to warn against unrelenting bloodshed as well. By killing and killing and killing, it would just escalate the conflict with the Hundred Bands. Questions also arose as to how other tribes would react to the People's insistence on blood. Many would become uncomfortable or fearful, wondering if they could be next. There was also justice to consider. The People's attack on the Hundred Bands camp had been proportional to what had occurred at the Fingers, plus additional punishment. To commit to killing all of the Hundred Bands would no longer be punishment, but blood to appease old wounds.
Instead, what had happened was that raiders of the Hundred Bands caught out were captured and sequestered away in the People's territory so that they were no longer an immediate threat. The People could not feed them if they did nothing, so they were quietly put to work; gathering clay for bricks, tanning leather, chopping wood; many of the tasks that Debtors were normally assigned. Those tasks had to be done by someone and they freed up the People to acquire more food to feed them. They essentially became Debtors over time, taking food in exchange for completing assigned labour.
The only difference was that they could be held in reserve in order to ensure 'good' behaviour from the Hundred Bands. If they captured some of the People as prisoners, the two groups could be exchanged. It also lowered the general level of violence. No one wanted to endanger kin held by the enemy by being too vicious.
Value Gained: Stone-Skinned!
Just as the thick hide of a bear or the great bones of an orker protect them, so too have the People committed to protecting themselves. The land has given much to the People; the earth already provides their armoury and so too will they turn it to provide their armour. What they lack in natural defenses of bone, wood, and stone, they will take and shape as only the People can.
Pros: Defenses are more effective, new defensive options unlocked
Cons: Defensive structures increase in cost
Pros: Defenses are more effective, new defensive options unlocked
Cons: Defensive structures increase in cost
Now that the situation had stabilized, the People finally had time to focus on other things. Chiefly among them was shoring up weakness. From the two attacks upon the Fingers, the People had realized that their palisade had noticeable weaknesses. Once an enemy made it to the base of the palisade, they were extremely difficult to dislodge. They could easily chop through the palisade which completely voided its protective purpose. The People needed to find some way to overcome the problem, the only question was how?
[ ] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
[ ] [Wall] Build elevated platforms form which the People can fire!
[ ] [Wall] Stagger the palisade, build multiple layers of defenses!
As the years passed and a new generation slowly assumed mantles of leadership, a shaman made a startling discovery. She knew why the spirits showed favour to Debtors harvesting water-grass. She noticed that Debtors tended to bring less water-grass home each evening in their canoes. The difference was small, so it had often been overlooked, but it was easily noticed by someone trained in calculating weights to make lime. When she looked into the situation further, she realized how careless Debtors tended to be. Instead of carefully stripping the seeds from the grass stalks and into the canoe, they would let numerous seeds fall into the water so that they could complete their assigned collection faster.
A few handfuls of these seeds, rice, as she was calling it, thrown into the Great River confirmed that water-grass would grow where before it had not. There were still some mysteries; the rice wouldn't grow in a pool/pond of water, or in a clay pot of it, but it was enough to begin to really cultivating the plant. By setting aside some of the rice for future growing, the People could massively expand the range of the plant along the Great River basically at will. Given how easy it would be to expand the amount of food available to the People, the shaman's excitement was infectious.
Things were about to change.
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- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
AGRICULTURE HYPE
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] [War Debt] Recognize the labour of captives as paying their captor's debts
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
The Brick would make it more into an actual Wall, which are hard to break without dedicated equipment as it develops with better materials, the other two options can come later.
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
The Brick would make it more into an actual Wall, which are hard to break without dedicated equipment as it develops with better materials, the other two options can come later.
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[X] [War Debt] Recognize Raiders as akin to Shaman
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
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LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
[X] [War Debt] Select Raiders by Lot
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
Elevated platforms or Bricks? Either would be nice, but since the enemy likes to use shields rendering missile fire mostly ineffective and they can chop at our Palaside using their axes, Brick walls so we can outlast the enemy's supplies in a siege seems like the better choice. I don't think anyone has the engineering prowess to construct battering rams yet, though, they could use ladders to scale the wall.
Letting everyone be a Raider seems like it'll lead to the creation of an official militia, while the Shaman option will lead to the founding of Soldier as a full-time profession. The third option encourages capture of enemies which I don't think is a good idea. Our hunters should be aiming to kill, not capture. The war is attrition based, and having too many Hundred Band inside our camps could lead to a slave revolt at the worst times.
In the end, the Lot Option seems the best to me. We can't support fulltime soldiers until we have dedicated farmers to offset the loss in hunting, but if our farmers had experience in defending themselves, it would make sieges a lot harder for our enemy.
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
Elevated platforms or Bricks? Either would be nice, but since the enemy likes to use shields rendering missile fire mostly ineffective and they can chop at our Palaside using their axes, Brick walls so we can outlast the enemy's supplies in a siege seems like the better choice. I don't think anyone has the engineering prowess to construct battering rams yet, though, they could use ladders to scale the wall.
Letting everyone be a Raider seems like it'll lead to the creation of an official militia, while the Shaman option will lead to the founding of Soldier as a full-time profession. The third option encourages capture of enemies which I don't think is a good idea. Our hunters should be aiming to kill, not capture. The war is attrition based, and having too many Hundred Band inside our camps could lead to a slave revolt at the worst times.
In the end, the Lot Option seems the best to me. We can't support fulltime soldiers until we have dedicated farmers to offset the loss in hunting, but if our farmers had experience in defending themselves, it would make sieges a lot harder for our enemy.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Making the captives into indentured servants would massively benefit our agriculture, as long as we don't rely solely on capture labour we could do quite well
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- Location
- Classified
[X] [War Debt] Recognize Raiders as akin to Shaman
Centralization Ho! It's ring giving time!
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
Our new trait is supposed to give us new defensive options, so we may be able to get the other stuff on our own time.
And we've gone into the Agricultural Revolution, we're going into a whole new phase. Rice, does that mean we're in asia?
Centralization Ho! It's ring giving time!
[X] [Wall] Change the walls materials to tougher brick!
Our new trait is supposed to give us new defensive options, so we may be able to get the other stuff on our own time.
And we've gone into the Agricultural Revolution, we're going into a whole new phase. Rice, does that mean we're in asia?
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Maybe some climate and plant rearrangement? AUearth
That's...something I hadn't actually considered.
It's actually strong enough point to make me switch my Wall vote.
Still keeping my vote on "create early-state professional army", though.