From Stone to the Stars

I'll be really frank when I say this does not make me very confident in our continued happy existence, thinking about the potential future complications.
Why do you say that?
Elites are literally the only way to advance society, social stratification is Never going away in least we stay hunter gatherer primitives.

Also why are people going elective leaders? We did that already, its called Path of Civilizations.
 
On Hierarchy
We're not boosting the Honored Elite value. Ever. Fuck the patricians.

I promised I would come back to his after work and here we are.

Now, stratification, where did it start? It's best to look at the epitome of stratification first: the King. For history, he (usually given human sexism, although, Poland did have a female King) was the end all and be all of temporal authority. His word was law and was often either inherently divine (God-Kings) or divinely inspired (Divine Right of Kings). The king held authority of life and death. If you trace the word "king" all the way back to its origins, you find it in the first city-states: Ur, Uruk, Babylon, etc. To them, King was merely a word that meant "Big Man".

So what's a Big Man? This is something that I think AcademiaNut misunderstood and misused in his game. In our game, for example, you've already had four of these Big Men: Alvar, Feodor, Lucjan, and Tymon. A Big Man is an informal position that some bands/tribes had. A Big Man had no official power. They couldn't censure people, they couldn't give orders, they couldn't punish; the only thing they could do was talk. They could bribe and cajole, but their only way of getting things done was by convincing people. This is a form of hierarchy that I'm pretty sure everyone (even Anarchists) is comfortable with.

So how did that end up creating Kings? It was a slow process. But an inevitable one.

Big Men constantly jockeyed for position against each other. Human bands and tribes often had multiple Big Men, all of whom were ambitious and charismatic and existed in parallel with equivalent 'authority'. You gained in prestige and authority as you managed to convince more people to follow you. This often involved making sure your people's needs were met (this meant not only food but sexual partners for the smaller men who followed the Big Man) and that everyone was kept safe. The system is intensely meritocratic. It's also extremely unstable.

Eventually, over time, the system tends to collapse. Big Men are suborned by other Big Men who in turn give their allegiance to bigger men. Having informal sway over a large portion of the population allows you to turn that into even more and more influence. Knowing people allows you to get more done. Interpersonal connections were the real currency of the Neolithic Age. This creates a runaway feedback loop. Even if all Big Men were equally skilled, simple chance would propel some to the top while others crash. The system if inherently unstable. It cannot persist.

So how do you force the Big Man system to self-propagate against its inherent collapse? Well, the easiest way is to start murdering each and every Hero you get. They're Big Men who won. Then you want to stamp our every hint of ambition. Someone wants to better their situation? Heresy. Someone makes the entire tribe laugh with funny jokes? Rip out their tongue. They could turn the positive feeling of humour into interpersonal connections almost immediately and eventually into kingship. Having too many friends is a sign that someone's becoming a Big Man. The very act of having friends makes you powerful. Chairman Mao said 'All political authority descends from the barrel of a gun;' he's not completely wrong. Power is the act of being able to mobilize people. If you have friends, getting them to do you a favour is easy. You can then leverage this as a broker of favours to get more friends and more favours. We are social animals and we are literally wired to do this.

This is literally how your in-game economy currently works.

People also naturally teach their children and pass down their social connections. Friends will likely have children that can grow up knowing each other and then eventually becomes friends on their own. Social connections (and thus power) are naturally transmitted down generational lines. Sure, education can help, but unless you're a moron education is something that any one can succeed at until you get to the highest levels of intellectual ability.

If you want to prevent this, the inquisition that destroys all interpersonal relationships will have to be run by somebody. Even if it's only an informal, ad-hoc council convincing the tribe to ostracize and murder outcast members. Hmm... this position sounds in no way like one that would attract an ambitious, powerful, and charismatic man. Stalin would cry tears of jealousy at the amount of authoritarian power necessary to do thus.

So now that we've established that Big Men are inherent in human societies and that these social systems tend to collapse inevitably into one with a single Big Man on top, how does that get us to Kingship? That's actually relatively easy. A system will one Big Men will probably have a number of Middle Men. These are all powerful, connected, and influential people, but they lost out the race for the top spot. If there's a dozen of them, then it's trivial for the Big Man on top to engineer disagreements and fights between the Middle Men. These Middle Men are then forced to jockey for the Big Man's favour in order to compete against the rivals. If the Middle Men all ganged up, they would trivially overthrow the Big Man, but none of them do.

Why not? This gets back to human psychology. People who have to compete against each other for resources will grow to hate each other. It fosters enmity and prevents them all from working together. There's also an element of risk assessment involved. Sure, if you flip the table, you could end up in charge, but you could also end up dead. That's a lot of risk for minimal gain. After all, as a Middle Man, you're not top dog, but you are very near the top. If you're playing blackjack, are you going to ask for another card when you're sitting at 20? Sure, you could do better, but it's extremely likely that you'll bust instead and lose everything.

Thus, the Middle Men are deadlocked against each other and the Big Man's position starts to calcify. Even if the Big Man is outmaneuvered, the one most likely to replace them is a Middle Man, the situation doesn't change much. This new system begins to stabilize at the top.

So what happens if a Little Man wanted to replace a Middle Man? That might happen. If the Little Man can defeat the Middle Man and then present himself as a replacement as a fait accompli. Since the Little Man won and became a Middle Man, the Big Man is likely to accept it. After all, he doesn't care about who the Middle Men are as long as they're divided and not all working against him. In fact, it can be beneficial for a Little Man to be promoted since they're likely weakened by their struggles and will need to rely on the Big Man for support. The new system begins to stabilize in the middle

For a Tiny Man, the situation is pretty different. The Tiny Man is really low on the totem pole. If he wants to try and replace the Little Man, he's trivial to crush. The Big Man can do this fairly easily on his own. Thus, very few of the Little Men will be replaced by Tiny Men. Even a Middle Man could easily crush a Tiny Man. They're likely even good to do so. After all, if a Tiny Man tries to beat a Little Man, what's to say they won't grow to try and beat a Middle Man? Thus, the top of the system manages to keep the bottom of the system in line. This system inherently stabilizes at the bottom.

Now it's possible for all of the Tiny Men to team up (i.e. the Baron's War and the Magna Carta) but there are likely a lot of Tiny Men. How are they going to all team up?

Over time the system will continue to calcify, becoming more and more like a noble-run society. I mean, the language just changes: Big Man = King, Middle Man = Duke, Little Man = Count/Marquis, Tiny Man = Baron. This system is inherently stabilizing at every level. It's basically evolution; a stable system is better at propagating itself than an unstable system. There's no way to escape it. Trying to fight the system is exactly as fruitless and impossible as trying to fight evolution (descent with modification over time).

If anything, having an Elite trait line helps with the (likely unstated) goal of being meritocratic. If people have to be the best they can be, they can be demoted for incompetence faster. If no one cares about competence, then Big, Middle, or Little Men tend to drift along without being challenged as seriously. If you don't have an Elite trait, social stratification will continue to develop. It's unavoidable. If you fight it, eventually your civilization will explode under the strain. All of the survivors will then automatically pick up additional stratification after they crawl out of the Dark Age you caused. Hierarchy gained in that way is likely to be extremely harsh compared to that which arises naturally.

Even in the modern day, social stratification exists. Perhaps more so than many people think and, arguably, to a greater degree than any time in history.

(Sorry for anyone who thought this alert would be an update.)

@Redium Can we have confirmation? Is there are Palisade at the Fingers settlement or was that burned down?

The Fingers palisade burned down with the rest of the Fingers settlement.


Also, could people clean up their votes? Elected Representatives is technically winning, but Plan Consolidate has 2 extra votes that aren't counted with it. Correcting the vote will change who wins.
 
Isn't the palisade there still standing? I'm concerned about crystal lake.

We didn't burn down the Finger Palasides if I recall correctly, so I'm going with this.

The Fingers palisade burned down with the rest of the Fingers settlement.

Right. So here we have it, the palisade is most certainly not standing, as per the QM.

Edit: Let's see if this works:

[X] Plan Consolidate
-[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
-[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
-[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
--[X] Fingers
-[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
-[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
-- [X] Fingers
-[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
-[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
-[X] [Action] Expand Traps
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:00 AM, finished with 45 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
    [X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Expand Traps
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    [X] [Action] Harvest Water-Grass
    [X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -[X] Fingers
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] Don't Starve
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Expand Wolfpacks
    -[X] [Art] Expand Traps
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Harvest Water-Grass
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    -[X] Crystal Lake
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Art] Prepare Trade Goods
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:02 AM, finished with 47 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
    [X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Expand Traps
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    [X] [Action] Harvest Water-Grass
    [X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -[X] Fingers
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    [X] Don't Starve
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Expand Wolfpacks
    -[X] [Art] Expand Traps
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Harvest Water-Grass
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    -[X] Crystal Lake
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Art] Prepare Trade Goods
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
 
Last edited:
I promised I would come back to his after work and here we are.

Now, stratification, where did it start? It's best to look at the epitome of stratification first: the King. For history, he (usually given human sexism, although, Poland did have a female King) was the end all and be all of temporal authority. His word was law and was often either inherently divine (God-Kings) or divinely inspired (Divine Right of Kings). The king held authority of life and death. If you trace the word "king" all the way back to its origins, you find it in the first city-states: Ur, Uruk, Babylon, etc. To them, King was merely a word that meant "Big Man".

So what's a Big Man? This is something that I think AcademiaNut misunderstood and misused in his game. In our game, for example, you've already had four of these Big Men: Alvar, Feodor, Lucjan, and Tymon. A Big Man is an informal position that some bands/tribes had. A Big Man had no official power. They couldn't censure people, they couldn't give orders, they couldn't punish; the only thing they could do was talk. They could bribe and cajole, but their only way of getting things done was by convincing people. This is a form of hierarchy that I'm pretty sure everyone (even Anarchists) is comfortable with.

So how did that end up creating Kings? It was a slow process. But an inevitable one.

Big Men constantly jockeyed for position against each other. Human bands and tribes often had multiple Big Men, all of whom were ambitious and charismatic and existed in parallel with equivalent 'authority'. You gained in prestige and authority as you managed to convince more people to follow you. This often involved making sure your people's needs were met (this meant not only food but sexual partners for the smaller men who followed the Big Man) and that everyone was kept safe. The system is intensely meritocratic. It's also extremely unstable.

Eventually, over time, the system tends to collapse. Big Men are suborned by other Big Men who in turn give their allegiance to bigger men. Having informal sway over a large portion of the population allows you to turn that into even more and more influence. Knowing people allows you to get more done. Interpersonal connections were the real currency of the Neolithic Age. This creates a runaway feedback loop. Even if all Big Men were equally skilled, simple chance would propel some to the top while others crash. The system if inherently unstable. It cannot persist.

So how do you force the Big Man system to self-propagate against its inherent collapse? Well, the easiest way is to start murdering each and every Hero you get. They're Big Men who won. Then you want to stamp our every hint of ambition. Someone wants to better their situation? Heresy. Someone makes the entire tribe laugh with funny jokes? Rip out their tongue. They could turn the positive feeling of humour into interpersonal connections almost immediately and eventually into kingship. Having too many friends is a sign that someone's becoming a Big Man. The very act of having friends makes you powerful. Chairman Mao said 'All political authority descends from the barrel of a gun;' he's not completely wrong. Power is the act of being able to mobilize people. If you have friends, getting them to do you a favour is easy. You can then leverage this as a broker of favours to get more friends and more favours. We are social animals and we are literally wired to do this.

This is literally how your in-game economy currently works.

People also naturally teach their children and pass down their social connections. Friends will likely have children that can grow up knowing each other and then eventually becomes friends on their own. Social connections (and thus power) are naturally transmitted down generational lines. Sure, education can help, but unless you're a moron education is something that any one can succeed at until you get to the highest levels of intellectual ability.

If you want to prevent this, the inquisition that destroys all interpersonal relationships will have to be run by somebody. Even if it's only an informal, ad-hoc council convincing the tribe to ostracize and murder outcast members. Hmm... this position sounds in no way like one that would attract an ambitious, powerful, and charismatic man. Stalin would cry tears of jealousy at the amount of authoritarian power necessary to do thus.

So now that we've established that Big Men are inherent in human societies and that these social systems tend to collapse inevitably into one with a single Big Man on top, how does that get us to Kingship? That's actually relatively easy. A system will one Big Men will probably have a number of Middle Men. These are all powerful, connected, and influential people, but they lost out the race for the top spot. If there's a dozen of them, then it's trivial for the Big Man on top to engineer disagreements and fights between the Middle Men. These Middle Men are then forced to jockey for the Big Man's favour in order to compete against the rivals. If the Middle Men all ganged up, they would trivially overthrow the Big Man, but none of them do.

Why not? This gets back to human psychology. People who have to compete against each other for resources will grow to hate each other. It fosters enmity and prevents them all from working together. There's also an element of risk assessment involved. Sure, if you flip the table, you could end up in charge, but you could also end up dead. That's a lot of risk for minimal gain. After all, as a Middle Man, you're not top dog, but you are very near the top. If you're playing blackjack, are you going to ask for another card when you're sitting at 20? Sure, you could do better, but it's extremely likely that you'll bust instead and lose everything.

Thus, the Middle Men are deadlocked against each other and the Big Man's position starts to calcify. Even if the Big Man is outmaneuvered, the one most likely to replace them is a Middle Man, the situation doesn't change much. This new system begins to stabilize at the top.

So what happens if a Little Man wanted to replace a Middle Man? That might happen. If the Little Man can defeat the Middle Man and then present himself as a replacement as a fait accompli. Since the Little Man won and became a Middle Man, the Big Man is likely to accept it. After all, he doesn't care about who the Middle Men are as long as they're divided and not all working against him. In fact, it can be beneficial for a Little Man to be promoted since they're likely weakened by their struggles and will need to rely on the Big Man for support. The new system begins to stabilize in the middle

For a Tiny Man, the situation is pretty different. The Tiny Man is really low on the totem pole. If he wants to try and replace the Little Man, he's trivial to crush. The Big Man can do this fairly easily on his own. Thus, very few of the Little Men will be replaced by Tiny Men. Even a Middle Man could easily crush a Tiny Man. They're likely even good to do so. After all, if a Tiny Man tries to beat a Little Man, what's to say they won't grow to try and beat a Middle Man? Thus, the top of the system manages to keep the bottom of the system in line. This system inherently stabilizes at the bottom.

Now it's possible for all of the Tiny Men to team up (i.e. the Baron's War and the Magna Carta) but there are likely a lot of Tiny Men. How are they going to all team up?

Over time the system will continue to calcify, becoming more and more like a noble-run society. I mean, the language just changes: Big Man = King, Middle Man = Duke, Little Man = Count/Marquis, Tiny Man = Baron. This system is inherently stabilizing at every level. It's basically evolution; a stable system is better at propagating itself than an unstable system. There's no way to escape it. Trying to fight the system is exactly as fruitless and impossible as trying to fight evolution (descent with modification over time).

If anything, having an Elite trait line helps with the (likely unstated) goal of being meritocratic. If people have to be the best they can be, they can be demoted for incompetence faster. If no one cares about competence, then Big, Middle, or Little Men tend to drift along without being challenged as seriously. If you don't have an Elite trait, social stratification will continue to develop. It's unavoidable. If you fight it, eventually your civilization will explode under the strain. All of the survivors will then automatically pick up additional stratification after they crawl out of the Dark Age you caused. Hierarchy gained in that way is likely to be extremely harsh compared to that which arises naturally.

Even in the modern day, social stratification exists. Perhaps more so than many people think and, arguably, to a greater degree than any time in history.

(Sorry for anyone who thought this alert would be an update.)



The Fingers palisade burned down with the rest of the Fingers settlement.


Also, could people clean up their votes? Elected Representatives is technically winning, but Plan Consolidate has 2 extra votes that aren't counted with it. Correcting the vote will change who wins.
Huh.

That's a very insightful look at human social structure. Hmmmm... I guess we'll have to wait and see then.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:07 AM, finished with 50 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
    [X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Expand Traps
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    [X] [Action] Harvest Water-Grass
    [X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -[X] Fingers
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    [X] Don't Starve
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Expand Wolfpacks
    -[X] [Art] Expand Traps
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Harvest Water-Grass
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    -[X] Crystal Lake
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Art] Prepare Trade Goods
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
 
Also, could people clean up their votes? Elected Representatives is technically winning, but Plan Consolidate has 2 extra votes that aren't counted with it. Correcting the vote will change who wins.

I'm not entirely sure what exactly is making it so that some of the vote plans are not being counted together.

Let's try this again.

[X] Plan Consolidate
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:04 AM, finished with 48 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
    [X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Expand Traps
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    [X] [Action] Harvest Water-Grass
    [X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -[X] Fingers
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    [X] Don't Starve
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Expand Wolfpacks
    -[X] [Art] Expand Traps
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Harvest Water-Grass
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    -[X] Crystal Lake
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Art] Prepare Trade Goods
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:14 AM, finished with 52 posts and 23 votes.

  • [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
    [X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Expand Traps
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    [X] [Action] Harvest Water-Grass
    [X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -[X] Fingers
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    [X] Don't Starve
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Expand Wolfpacks
    -[X] [Art] Expand Traps
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Harvest Water-Grass
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    -[X] Crystal Lake
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Art] Prepare Trade Goods
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
 
Also, could people clean up their votes? Elected Representatives is technically winning, but Plan Consolidate has 2 extra votes that aren't counted with it. Correcting the vote will change who wins.
Well i've been taking tallies since the update, i've made sure to combine votes :p

WAIT, what happens if we formalize the three of big men's positions but close the third camp?
Adhoc vote count started by Ghostdevil on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:12 AM, finished with 52 posts and 23 votes.

  • [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
    [X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Expand Traps
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    [X] [Action] Harvest Water-Grass
    [X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -[X] Fingers
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    [X] Don't Starve
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Expand Wolfpacks
    -[X] [Art] Expand Traps
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Harvest Water-Grass
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    -[X] Crystal Lake
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Art] Prepare Trade Goods
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Consolidate
-[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
-[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
-[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
--[X] Fingers
-[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
-[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
-- [X] Fingers
-[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
-[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
-[X] [Action] Expand Traps
 
Basically, what we want is a Meritocratic Elite line, but we want to ensure that it doesn't grow too strong, like it did in PoC...
 
Basically, what we want is a Meritocratic Elite line, but we want to ensure that it doesn't grow too strong, like it did in PoC...
I don't think thats possible, outside extreme measure people like to bring up every now and then (like communal baby raising... which has its own problems) people will want the best for their children and give them every advantage they can... and then those children will do so for theirs and so on.
This will lead to POC again...
(Well hopefully not the lightning rounds)
 
Last edited:
Basically, what we want is a Meritocratic Elite line, but we want to ensure that it doesn't grow too strong, like it did in PoC...
I don't think thats possible, outside extreme measure people like to bring up every now and then (like communal baby raising... which has its own problems) people will want the best for their children and give them every advantage they can... and then those children will do so for theirs and so on.
This will lead to POC again...
(Well hopefully not the lightning rounds)
ill be blatantly honest here, im gonna be supporting full on monarchy even if our society doesn't have a concept of such by the space age, not gonna go in a whole argument over what systems are better but before you all go assuming everyone wants democracy just thought id mention my intentions.

[X] Plan Consolidate
 
Last edited:
ill be blatantly honest here, im gonna be supporting full on monarchy even if our society doesn't have a concept of such by the space age, not gonna go in a whole argument over what systems are better but before you all go assuming everyone wants democracy just thought id mention my intentions.

-[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
-[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
-[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
--[X] Fingers
-[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
-[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
-- [X] Fingers
-[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
-[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
-[X] [Action] Expand Traps

Not that I don't appreciate the fact that the things you are voting for are the same as Plan Consolidate but, I don't they will count seeing as everyone else is mostly voting by plan the bequest of the QM as seen below:

Also, to Everyone, please for my sanity (and to reduce levels of salt in the quest) please vote by Plan.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Feb 23, 2018 at 1:52 AM, finished with 59 posts and 24 votes.

  • [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Memory] Establish competitions (Promote Folk Wrestling)
    [X] [Victory] Settle some of the People in to support them. (Establish Waystation)
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Expand Traps
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    [X] [Action] Harvest Water-Grass
    [X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    [X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -[X] Fingers
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    [X] Don't Starve
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Expand Wolfpacks
    -[X] [Art] Expand Traps
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Harvest Water-Grass
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    [X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    [X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    -[X] Crystal Lake
    [X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] [Art] Prepare Trade Goods
    [X] [Admin] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Study Travel
    [X] [Action] Investigate Spirit Food
    [X] Plan Elected Representatives
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Have each camp elect delegates and send a few to a new, central council
    -[X] [Martial] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Admin] Study Travel
    -[X] [Action] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Expand Wolfpacks
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
    [X] Plan Consolidate
    -[X] [Waystation] Close River-Bend and move the People to the Fingers proper
    -[X] [Organize] Formalize the informal leader positions that the Three Brothers have had and let them lead a camp
    -[X] [Martial] Build Palisade
    --[X] Fingers
    -[X] [Art] Investigate Spirit Food
    -[X] [Art] Found Holy Site
    -- [X] Fingers
    -[X] [Admin] Collect Shellfish
    -[X] [Action] Increase Hunting
    -[X] [Action] Expand Traps
 
Not that I don't appreciate the fact that the things you are voting for are the same as Plan Consolidate but, I don't they will count seeing as everyone else is mostly voting by plan the bequest of the QM as seen below:
for some reason, the copy paste did not work fully o.o that is my bad.
 
for some reason, the copy paste did not work fully o.o that is my bad.

That's understandable, though I should note having tried this out myself, that writing the full plan out for the vote makes it so that when you tally it, you will be like @taovkool and @hylas240 , meaning that your votes will be counted separately and that will make it messy for the QM when it comes time to tally at the end. After posting my vote with just the plan name rather than the option, that fixed everything.
 
ill be blatantly honest here, im gonna be supporting full on monarchy even if our society doesn't have a concept of such by the space age, not gonna go in a whole argument over what systems are better but before you all go assuming everyone wants democracy just thought id mention my intentions.

[X] Plan Consolidate
Well i mean... i never assumed that :p, even more so since i've been constantly tallying and my vote is the same as yours

Also, i don't think i'd describe consolidate's position on government to be any thing close to monarchy yet
 
I feel like we should structure our civ around the inevitable fractures it's going to suffer. Making a perfect government (from our perspective) isn't going to work until much later in the game.
 
I just stumbled onto an interesting fact: since around 4000 BC, the ancient Sumerians had learned that willow bark dulls pain. Later the Greeks and Egyptians used willow bark tea to ease childbirth. The point, willow bark contains natural acetylsalicylic acid aka Aspirin.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Basically, what we want is a Meritocratic Elite line, but we want to ensure that it doesn't grow too strong, like it did in PoC...
Creating elites costs resources. Meritocratic Democracy is the most expensive one because you're investing between 100 to 1000 times the amount of resources and only using the same amount of experts. In the tribal age, this is the meat, training and weaponls to become big and strong, in the iron age this is the tutoring, the connections and more.

Until you have achieved a way to train a lot of people in skills they might not even use, any meritocracy will evolve into an Oligarchy.
Monarchy of course is super efficient with the investment in their elites, since you only train twice as many people as you need(heir, and spare), compared to Oligarchy where of the two dozen people trained to potentially become Doge, only one of them gets elected and the rest of them will put that training into trying to tear down the top guy so they can be it. You need some sort of workaholic trait to vent the excess into productivity rather than waste.

The problem of course is that risks are higher with Monarchy. You lose your two trained individuals, or their native ability is too crappy even with the investment...then you get the Dumb Noble archetype.
 
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