[Exalted, ?] Most High

He didn't fix the problems, but to say he couldn't have? That's flat-out incorrect.
He couldn't fix them, because he was dead. He couldn't have fixed them, because ultimately, it was a battle he could not win.

Besides, what's the alternative? Lie down and die? Let the Bronze Faction win?
It would have worked out better if he had, both for the world and himself. Imagine of Anys Syn didn't hate and fear him so much that she was willing to sell the world to the Yozis to destroy him.

Odyssial killed billions of "innocents" (quotes because according to Rihaku the vast majority were soldiers sent against him) in an effort to rehaul Creation into something which isn't utterly terrible for the average mortal.
If he killed billions of soldiers, he surely killed far more noncombatants. It's pretty much unavoidable on that scale.

These deaths happened because he was attacked by the traitorous viziers of heaven who decided to damn creation to a fragile mediocrity rather then try to maintain the current level of civilization.
They decided to choose a less world that would certainly continue to exist over the risk of losing everything. I don't know that they were right, but it was not an unreasonable choice.

Also "mere tens of millions of casualties" are you even listening to yourself? Disregarding the hypocrisy in condemning Odyssial for allowing collateral damage in his effort to better Creation while you allow for massive amounts of preventable death and suffering to occur you sound one "greater good" away from becoming a comic book villain.
People you kill and people you were not able to save are very different things. Is Superman a monster because he's not powering the world by running on a treadmill?

And Odyssial was very much a comic book villain. So very, very much.
 
Rather than being against that, I'm for standing together with our friends and allies in the face of a cruel and uncaring world.

So am I! That's why the option I picked has us meeting up with one of our strongest and most faithful allies, Lea. Also it increases our rate of growth making us more likely to realize what's going on with another of our greatest allies the Fairest. It's like the gift that keeps on giving.
 
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So am I! That's why the option I picked has us meeting up with one of our strongest and most faithful allies, Lea. Also it increases our rate of growth making us more likely to realize what's going on with another of our greatest Allies the Fairest. It's like the gift that keep[s on giving.

:facepalm: Yeah people that the player base has seen all of one scene of compared to how many scene's we have seen of moon? The connections the player base has formed with Moon? Frankly I don't really care about the fairest or Lea. *I* don't know them. I do know Moon.
 
:facepalm: Yeah people that the player base has seen all of one scene of compared to how many scene's we have seen of moon? The connections the player base has formed with Moon? Frankly I don't really care about the fairest or Lea. *I* don't know them. I do know Moon.

Good for you, has nothing to do with whether the option makes use of allies or not though.

He couldn't fix them, because he was dead. He couldn't have fixed them, because ultimately, it was a battle he could not win.

The fight was balanced on a knife's edge, meta wise he couldn't win because then there's no quest, in universe though he could certainly have prevailed.
 
Ah, Odyssial. You rear your head again. And once again, I am saddened at how bad you are at optimizing. Can't even be bothered to tell people why the viziers are being slaughtered, so you can prevent a recurrence, I see.

Well, no, perhaps that is unfair. I'm really just saddened that 'Get Stronger' is a defining principle still, that worthless thing. Not having saved people is really just an excuse, evidence of your need to be stronger, not really something to be sad about, after all.

I really wish we had gotten this out of our system out in the wilderness.

the removal of all distraction, all mental impurities, all the fleeting and purposeless stimuli that constantly assail the mind. What it is, is the triumph of the will, the extermination of weakness and vice. For a man can only live with one purpose - to do otherwise is to be at war with one's self.
This is a sad, sad statement. One made in ignorance, or willfull disregard, of what it is to be human. A shame that Odyssial is merely a rationalizing beast, like us all. To think he is too weak to work towards one goal without a full range of desires and drives.

[X] Resist the Clarity

I was smiling... right up until the end. Now? I... I don't know what I want.
Really? I lost my smile when Odyssial showed up. That mindset is a pitiable thing. To see only one goal, to evaluate a situation along a single, linear axis, its a depressingly common failing.
I think you are the confused one in this case. It has never been definitively stated whether Odyssial winning would have been a good thing or not. Only hints and implications both ways.
Really? Both ways? I honestly can't think of any indication Odyssial has any idea what would be a perfect world for anything we could recognize as human.
I'm just hoping Embrace the Clarity doesn't mean we decide that Lily and her systen is completely bad!wrong since its mostly right when it comes people and stuff when you can't objectively calculate utility perfectly (maybe with our new desire to powerlevel we'll start having EPIC sparring/traing/matches together?)
Perhaps, but since Odyssial has the utmost certainty of always being perfectly right in determining the optimal path, I don't think he'll ever think to do so himself. And lesser creatures that do operate on such a system obviously are just obstacles.
Hah! The irony of you, of all people, asking that question...

Power is worth everything. Power is agency, freedom, the strength to protect your friends, crush your enemies, and the ability to hope for a better future and not have the system of the world grind your dreams to dust. Without power, you are but a corpse playing at being alive.
Power alone is worth nothing. Agency in and of itself is meaningless. They let one achieve goals, and it is true, without them you achive less. But which goals you chose to achieve is more important than ones ability to grasp them. Having a greater quantity of options is not superior to having desirable options. I have less than zero faith that the full Odyssial mindset has any meaningful concept of friends, will willingly make everyone and everything his enemy, and may as well be incapable of conceiving of anything we would consider a better future, while working towards an alien dream none of us would share.
 
He couldn't have fixed them, because ultimately, it was a battle he could not win.
Do you have a citation for this?

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And some sound like they will leave if it does. Keep in mind not that long ago Rihaku was talking about the decreased activity maybe convincing him that the game should just die... can we afford to lose even more people and activity? Is this decision point really worth that to those voting for that position? Make an informed decision. Its a bit of a meta argument sure but its also a real issue I think the vote base should keep in mind for quest games. Basically how far they can push the GM and when their "dropping this" point is.
I will note again, as a PSA, that threats / bluffs / implications / etc that one can't play the quest anymore if a option wins are, 1) probably overblown (don't let your own strawmans become your beliefs; you will have a better chance of winning if you understand your opponent's actual arguments and position), and 2) will either be neutral or completely detrimental to your cause, argument-wise. This is because if we do not disincentivize that kind of behavior, the end result will be endless escalations of people threatening to leave the quest for increasingly silly reasons.

Note, then, that such behavior will ALWAYS, depending on what I decide, either not benefit you or impose a significant negative modifier on your arguments for that decision point; it will NEVER help you win that decision point.
 
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If he killed billions of soldiers, he surely killed far more noncombatants. It's pretty much unavoidable on that scale.
Given his level of skill and the way some charms work I wouldn't be so sure. After all if he really wanted to cause enough collateral damage to force the Sidereals to their knees he could have just run around using Total Annihilation equivalents on population centers.
They decided to choose a less world that would certainly continue to exist over the risk of losing everything. I don't know that they were right, but it was not an unreasonable choice.
And none of this would have been an issue if they had just backed the Lord Strategos of the Exalted Host.

#Odyssialdidnothingwrong
People you kill and people you were not able to save are very different things. Is Superman a monster because he's not powering the world by running on a treadmill?
Say that one day you develop the ability to produce water and heal burns and are immediately transported to the burning wreckage of some destroyed city, would you turn your back on the dying innocents around you and walk away? Because all of the people Odyssial killed were killed in self defense, whereas all the people who will die now if we don't go forward now die from negligence. Ulyssian is a Prince of the Earth and with that title comes all the responsibilities under Heaven.
 
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Do you have a citation for this?
Canonically, the Vision of Bronze guaranteed the continued existence of Creation, albeit diminished in greatness. This was its entire justification, that taking risks with the very existence of the world was madness, even if they were good odds. This implicitly requires that the Solars will certainly be beaten. Things could have been different here, but that is not a trivial change.

Given his level of skill and the way some charms work I wouldn't be so sure. After all if he really wanted to cause enough collateral damage to force the Sidereals to their knees he could have just run around using Total Annihilation equivalents on population centers.
Such restraint would certainly take effort and hence come at the cost of reducing his chance to win the battle and hence save more people. Unacceptable.
 
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Such restraint would certainly take effort and hence come at the cost of reducing his chance to win the battle and hence save more people. Unacceptable.
Just pointing out that even in this last update when Ulyssian went full Limit Break and slaughtered a couple hundred viziers with a flick of the sword he didn't injure any civilians while doing so. Given that he would be fighting someone whose weapon was made of a literally infinite amount of power and Creation is still around I think both sides were pulling their blows a bit. Also I doubt collateral damage would have been good for his plans in that final fight of his when the Lathe was entering it's final stages. You don't want the geomatic network exploding right beneath your megaproject after all.
 
OK here's my two cents. First, I don't think Odyssial's involvement with the Great Curse did him any long term favors.
odyssial was never involved with the great curse and I am pretty sure QM said he is not aware of its existance.
What odyssial did was inflict a fear effect equivalent of the great curse on all other celestials in regards to fighting him.
 
odyssial was never involved with the great curse and I am pretty sure QM said he is not aware of its existance.
What odyssial did was inflict a fear effect equivalent of the great curse on all other celestials in regards to fighting him.
He, while in Limit Break, decided to customize it apparently. Hence our different Limit Break from the norm.

And like we can do right now, for a moderate xp cost.
 
Power is nothing without purpose. If you abandon friends and Satrapy alike, what do you have left? Do you seriously think the citizens of Creation will thank you, when you put ten thousand to the sword to save a hundred thousand from the reaper's grasp? No. They'll curse you as a despot and a madman; when you fight alone, you die alone. There is no light at the end of that tunnel, and the only victory to be had will bring misery and loneliness.
This, more than anything, was ultimately the central tragedy of Odyssial. He had a noble ambition: to make a better, fairer world. To do this, he need power to effect change. To get power, he decided to grow stronger rather than rely overmuch on others or convince them of the righteousness of his cause.

Though his strength grew to be unparalleled, he found that it was still not enough. So he took upon himself the "blessing" of the Neverborn, using it to remove all of his human weaknesses that held him back. He removed his frailness, his loneliness, his weakness, even his very capacity for doubt. He made it so he literally could not help but constantly grow stronger. Even if he didn't want to, the curse would quickly force him to do so to the exclusion of all else. In his hubris, he never seriously questioned the wisdom of fundamentally modifying his psyche in such a way that literally made him inhuman when humanity was the very thing he wanted to protect.

Somewhere along the way becoming stronger became his primary motivation. The means became the ends. This was what the Curse did to him.

Rather than being against that, I'm for standing together with our friends and allies in the face of a cruel and uncaring world.
One of the reasons that Odyssial ultimately fell despite his unrivaled power was that he was only a single man. Could a circle of Solars, each somewhat weaker than Odyssial, have succeeded where he failed?

Might it be ultimately better to get his friends to grow stronger faster than to try to shoulder the entire burden himself?
 
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Somewhere along the way becoming stronger became his primary motivation. The means became the ends. This was what the Curse did to him.
He was literally in the process of creating a perfect world when the Usurpation occured.

One of the reasons that Odyssial ultimately fell despite his unrivaled power was that he was only a single man.
Yeah, silly Odyssial! You should have placed higher priority on finishing the device that lets you fight as if you were more than one man.

^Totally something he was capable of.

And like we can do right now, for a moderate xp cost.
Though notably we will be explicitly doing it worse.
 
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Somewhere along the way becoming stronger became his primary motivation. The means became the ends. This was what the Curse did to him.

So we're just ignoring the Lathe then? The Star-crown of Morning?

One of the reasons that Odyssial ultimately fell despite his unrivaled power was that he was only a single man. Could a circle of Solars, each somewhat weaker than Odyssial, have succeeded where he failed?

No, they all lost as well.

Might it be ultimately better to get his friends to grow stronger faster than to try to shoulder the entire burden himself?

The increased xp generation embracing grants us would actually make it easier to make them stronger.
 
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He was literally in the process of creating a perfect world when the Usurpation occured.
He was not directly creating a perfect world, but rather the Infinite Singularity Husk. The exact effects are unknown, but from the terror inspired at the Tourney, it seems to have also boosted his personal prowess. In the previous quest it was mentioned in response to a comment about throwing around black holes. Ultimately this plan still required him to forcibly beat the other Exalts in line, for mere reality alteration won't work on them.

The Star-crown of Morning?
Something explicitly created in conjunction with the Fairest, who alone was able to temper his madness with wisdom?
 
The increased xp generation embracing grants us would actually make it easier to make them stronger.
Given the way some of the teaching charms work we could probably create some kind of perpetual XP teaching engine where we invest XP in our friends then reap the dividends later. Between the 2x Modifier and the way Tireless Learner Method and Flowing Mind Prana work sticking with our friends after embracing Clarity might actually be the optimal development path.
 
This discussion is doing a great job of showing why the Great Curse can be so insidious. Even knowing about it caused Odyssial to only make its effects on him stronger, for he sought to maximize the power it granted him. Power that was ultimately a trap he thought himself too clever to be caught by even as he became more ensnared.

What's a bit of occasional insanity compared to ultimate power? Especially if it's being used for the noblest of causes? People are literally dying as we speak. We don't have the luxury of worrying about theoretical risks like long term corruption. Even if that becomes an issue we could easily fix it later. When we are stronger and don't need it. Except there is no such thing as strong enough and later gradually becomes too late.

What the Titans ultimately did to the Exalted was not to doom them or render them fools. No, they made them stronger, that none might complain or seek to undo their work. Moreover, they made the Exalted just like them, driven by inhuman passions and incomprehensible desires. Odyssial may have hated the Titans who crushed his civilization from apparently arbitrary reasons, but to the civilizations who were crushed with a flick of his wrist in the Usurpation The End of Stories was scarcely different than The Flowerbed Panoply.
 
Something explicitly created in conjunction with the Fairest, who alone was able to temper his madness with wisdom?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, at the end of the day what it represents is what Odyssial wished he could've been, it's not some foreign influence the Fairest injected him with.

Given the way some of the teaching charms work we could probably create some kind of perpetual XP teaching engine where we invest XP in our friends then reap the dividends later. Between the 2x Modifier and the way Tireless Learner Method and Flowing Mind Prana work sticking with our friends after embracing Clarity might actually be the optimal development path.

Yeah it can get pretty crazy. If we invested only 120,000xp that would grant one group of 5 600,000xp, and another group of 25 1,500,000xp. A pity we don't get to roll to regain xp from each student.
 
Well, no, perhaps that is unfair. I'm really just saddened that 'Get Stronger' is a defining principle still, that worthless thing. Not having saved people is really just an excuse, evidence of your need to be stronger, not really something to be sad about, after all.
From this I can see we have irreconcilable differences, so I'll try and attack objective wrongs rather than subjective ones. I will note that here you are saying you don't like a Defining Principle of Ulyssian, which is only negligibly different from disliking Ulyssian. I'm reminded of Jenna Moran's quote regarding Deceivers, and how you were right to be annoyed when they proclaimed that they hated every aspect of your existence and character but still loved the you under it all.


This is a sad, sad statement. One made in ignorance, or willfull disregard, of what it is to be human. A shame that Odyssial is merely a rationalizing beast, like us all. To think he is too weak to work towards one goal without a full range of desires and drives.
Earlier in the thread someone asked Orm Embar whether he would activate the Infinite Singularity Husk if it would cost Moon her life, and he wouldn't. That's not a criticism, just a note.

Really? Both ways? I honestly can't think of any indication Odyssial has any idea what would be a perfect world for anything we could recognize as human.
Well, Rihaku describes it as "a reality specifically tailored to human values."


I have less than zero faith that the full Odyssial mindset has any meaningful concept of friends, will willingly make everyone and everything his enemy, and may as well be incapable of conceiving of anything we would consider a better future, while working towards an alien dream none of us would share.
This is the most fallacious of your statements.

Even in Limit Break Odyssial recognises allies, and out of it he has friends.
While in Limit Break, Odyssial is completely free of distractions secondary to his Ultimate Purpose, whichever purpose that is. However, it's not practical for him to be in Limit Break all the time, and while outside of it he will still feel pain, remorse, etc for hurting his friends - though he may realistically decide that sometimes such is necessary, or is an acceptable cost to save thousands of lives.
However, most big decisions of that nature will still be up to you guys, though with an appropriate incentive gradient.

A description of Odyssial's future character development:
However, he will remain emotionally available to some small circle of friends outside of his Lunar Mate.

His relationship with Lea, explicitly a loving one. Odyssial can feel love:
[ ] Masked Queen - Strong where he was weak, direct where he was circuitous, together they eclipsed even the sun and moon. The thousand-faced seductress stalked the gardens and courtyards of the Titans and the Fair, plying her wiles, pouring poison and honey into their councils of war. Masks beneath masks she hid, and in all the history of Creation her true name was spoken only when they were alone. A love made strong by weakness: the weakness of her true face, and the weakness of his kindness.
[ ] The Rose Blossoms - Though he spent much of his time pursuing self-improvement, Odyssial spent much time as well with his closest companion from the Primordial War. Together, they suffered many tribulations, went on many adventures, and shared many joys. In the blackness of his hatred for the world and its makers, she comforted and supported him without judgement. When she danced in the maelstrom of masks, when she lost all memory of her own heart, he was there to remind her of the true shape of her face, which to him was always its most beautiful.
Odyssial has much more time to adventure and develop his relationships with Lea and Pearl.
[ ] Petals of the Rose - Accompanying Lea on many of her own missions, Odyssial learns something approximating social graces and more intimately deepens his relationship with the Queen of Masks. Lea's influence over matters at court is expanded considerably, with Odyssial around to serve as the somewhat awkward iron fist to her velvet glove. Their love is strengthened to one capable of surviving menace, tribulation, and the passing of the ages: not even the Age of Sorrows can diminish this one shining answer.
*Further improves affection (synergy effect from prior choices).

In the midst of the High First Age he still built relationships:
When at last he prevailed over all comers, he found to his surprise that the fairest of all Serenity's Chosen got along exceedingly well with him. The details and nature of their unique relationship are lost to time; neither her face nor name are known.

*Whether they were lovers, close friends, or surrogate brother and sister, none can say. But what was known is that the counsel of the Fairest, alone, could reduce the terror of Odyssial's growing power without reducing his might.

And the Intimacies Uly has inherited:
[Dormant Odyssial Defining Tie] Lea: Love, Exasperation, Trust
[Dormant Odyssial Defining Tie] The Fairest: ???
Major Tie: Sepulchral Pearl (Intimate Playfulness, Concern) [Temporarily Weakened, else would be Defining due to Odyssial]
Major Tie: Nio (Gratitude & Protectiveness) [Temporarily Weakened, else would be Defining due to Odyssial]
Notice how these are Defining. That means they were nearly as important to Odyssial as Finding A Way and Growing Stronger.


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He was not directly creating a perfect world, but rather the Infinite Singularity Husk. The exact effects are unknown, but from the terror inspired at the Tourney, it seems to have also boosted his personal prowess.
It wasn't complete by the Usurpation, so I don't think he could have used it in the Tourney.
 
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[X] Resist the Clarity

And this is the first time I've been genuinely horrified reading this quest. Remember when Lily had her rant? this is the exact type of thing she means. When you go so far into utilitarianism and so far up your own limit that you can't even consider that your calculations aren't perfect, your path isn't necessary.

This is the thinking of the man who would rather destroy reality itself then work with others. I so desperately wish to throw that all away but besides valuable training time(and implying to our friends ambition corrupts us), he's not wrong.

He's a fucking maniacal [Many Assorted Curses] but he does have a point. We are not being as efficient as we could be, and people will suffer for it. So we should temper that, we should attach the impulse to our actual ability to put it into context. Remember guys, this side of us wanted to make our citizens into soulsteel so that they couldn't be hurt, because he was concerned with saving lives rather then the quality of life.

what I'm trying to say is, I want to master ourselves because holy fuck does that side of us have some major strengths, but also it is so inhuman that it can and will lead us to a repeat of the first age.
 
I like the embrace option because it brings light to the most glaring problem of our actions - we are not saving creation, but instead are yet another short sighted exalt playing with self-chilling trouts so that they can carve themselves little empires.

People are concerned that we will become excessively brutal if we pick this option. I don't think that this will be the case - the brutality that is present in this update came because we limit broke. Otherwise, we would have had a choice on how to deal with the corruption - softer choices are very much possible.
 
This is the thinking of the man who would rather destroy reality itself then work with others. I so desperately wish to throw that all away but besides valuable training time(and implying to our friends ambition corrupts us), he's not wrong.
This is a man who was certainly willing to work with others, should it prove worthwhile. He lead an army into the Wyld, loaned Ambition away to improve his subordinates, adventured with Lea and Ivory, was friends with the preincarnation of Flame's sister, and was [REDACTED] with the Fairest.

And this is the first time I've been genuinely horrified reading this quest. Remember when Lily had her rant?
I do remember the reason why Odyssial decided to destroy the world, and it seems remarkably similar to the Lily's views:
When the world and an ideal exist in disharmony, it is not the ideal that is wrong.

It is not the ideal that has to change.

It is the world.

It was impractical, and he had to stand against the entirety of existence to do so, but when he saw suffering in the world he opposed it. He did not allow what he thought was right to be altered over the millenia of his life, and he devoted ceaseless effort to righting the wrongs that he saw even as a mortal.

When he had unlimited influence and power he did not fall to debauchery as his comrades did, nor did he settle for the failure of Bronze as the Sidereals did. No, even Gold was not enough to prevent the suffering that he was aware of at every moment, and so he sought a higher path.
 
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