[Exalted, ?] Most High

I see two primary downsides to failed negotiations with the Bull. First, we will waste valuable time that could be better spent preparing. Second, if we use Lily in the negotiations we reveal that she is allied to us, which would have otherwise come as an unexpected and extremely unpleasant surprise. This is in addition to other downsides, which could be considerable, depending on how negotiations go. An open alliance is out of the question unless we wish to abandon the Realm entirely. What will we offer for a non-aggression pact that would be worth more than they could simply take by force?
 
Mnemnon, she is our enemy by default. Even if we make nice with her we will just have to kill her later.
According to who? I mean, if we're talking about the Lathe, that involves killing literally everybody in Creation, but I think Mnemon is a candidate for cooperation in the long term. She is nothing if not pragmatic.
If we make nice with the bull it should last
Making nice with the Bull is likely to involve concessions or reparations. It'll last as long as the tribute keeps flowing; that's not a relationship I want Ulyssian to enter into.
 
According to QM
I'm surprised you guys would even consider working with Mnemon, given her end goals. Sooner or later you two will come into conflict, unless you have no ambitions of improving life for Creation's common people.
Why would she do that? She's interested in advancing and defending the establishment, not a comic book villain. The establishment is what denies basic rights to mortals and enshrines the Dragon-Blooded as permanently above them.
word of god. She is also not an original character and QM did not modify her from cannon, and here is her canon bio
I just read Mnemon's entries in the Aspect Book Earth. I knew she was cynical, but holy shit. She is the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the Realm. She's a completely amoral self-utility maximizer. That is to say, a sociopath. I'm trying to think of atrocities she wouldn't commit if they would fulfill her goals but I honestly can't think of any.

There is no way that she can get along with Ulyssian in the long-term unless one of them changes severely. Lily would think nothing of summarily executing her. The caning satrap of Luseng was a saint in comparison. Mnemon may not murder her lovers for pleasure, but they are no less dead for it.

One of the less objectionable things about her is that she's allied with the Deathlord Mask of Winters. She places about as much worth on mortal life as the average first age solar. Possibly less. She thinks nothing of murdering them on a whim or using them as ritual components. She feeds thousands of slaves to the Fair Folk every year. She has little more regard for the Dragon-Blooded, even her family, seeing them only as tools and executing them if she feels they are too ambitious or may grow to threaten her.

Another thing to consider is she has a bit of a history with Nilul, having tricked Nilul into following her mother into the Imperial Manse. We really should get Nilul's honest opinion of her before we commit to this. It's not necessarily the best option, merely the one that is natural for Nilul. There's still a write-in option if people really want to accept, though I prefer simply ignoring the invitation.

I'm not saying the option is necessarily terrible, but people really ought to understand what Mnemon is like so they don't later regret their choice.
so there you have it

Making nice with the Bull is likely to involve concessions or reparations
Making nice with anyone involves concessions, making concessions is not the end of the world and usually they are perfectly reasonable concessions such as "don't kill my people". If the concessions he wants are unacceptable then we will not make nice with him. But we could at least try and see what it would cost before saying "no, I will just murder them all without even talking to them because he could ask for something".
And if he does turn out to be unreasonable, then lily will actually help, which we NEED.
 
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I would personally prefer to screw over the Bull violently in the near future rather than Mnemon. The immediate repercussions from it are less catastrophic and more easily dealt with. While the Bull has his army and circle, Mnemon can do a lot more long reaching subtle nastiness. Plus, Ulyssian is a top-tier combatant at this point. We have word of Rihaku saying we could probably survive taking the Realm Defense Grid by main force if we braved its safeguards, which is beyond even Mnemon at the moment as far as I'm aware. Granted that may be comparing apples to oranges, but it's a good benchmark.

If Mnemon could take the Grid I have to think she would, given one of her driving motivations is "Become Empress". Plus, killing the Bull does not mean we'd have to kill his entire circle! We could 'liberate' them! Though we don't know much about them at the moment other than they're a mix of Celestial level exalted types. Anyway, I think it's silly to think that any alliance we make now would be enduring. Neither the Bull nor Mnemon's goals and mindsets are really compatible with Ulyssian's in the long run. I'd just prefer to maneuver Mnemon into a better position before we begin hostilities with her. I realize entering diplomacy with that sort of intent is perhaps not wise, but it is what it is.
 
Plus, killing the Bull does not mean we'd have to kill his entire circle! We could 'liberate' them!
the vote for liberate them is explicitly a vote to kill his entire circle in a first strike assassination.
any plan to flip the circle and kill him would require that we first talk to them, and is a completely different plan than voting "liberate them"
 
Eh, I'm convinced. Switching votes:

[X] Agree
-[X] Plan Nilul
-[X] Private Visit
[X] "Liberate" Them
[X] Train Stealth / Larceny Charms (Assassination focus)


On how to further enhance our plan, I would suggest maybe going for a little chat with Mnemon privately in an unannounced visit via Odyssian Horse Travels and then sneaking in her room or something. Less chance for her or Anys to springing a trap on Uly with the added benefit of the intimidation factor, and thus maybe a better chance of making a deal with her that is more favorable to us. That, or at least the deception of pretending to be on the boat traveling to the Blessed Isle while in reality using the Sundial Throne until the last moment.

Also, I added training because the time normally consumed by travel would be now open to us, which will hopefully lead to Rihaku allowing us using it otherwise. Flashing Ruse Prana from Larceny, and Stealth Charms focused on positioning for assassination plus combat stealth should give us a better chance of killing the Bull and his Circlemates. Also useful later on if/when we have to get rid of someone else, with Anys coming to the mind immediately.
 
According to who? I mean, if we're talking about the Lathe, that involves killing literally everybody in Creation, but I think Mnemon is a candidate for cooperation in the long term. She is nothing if not pragmatic.
She's pragmatic, yes, but in an extremely different way than Ulyssian. Odyssial may have been brutally efficient, but he had a lofty dream. He even had true friends that he trusted deeply. Mnemon understands only power and fear.

Fundamentally, their long-term goals are incompatible. This doesn't preclude a short-term alliance, but what is Mnemon guaranteed to get out of it before it falls apart? Ulyssian's advantage is immediate.

Making nice with the Bull is likely to involve concessions or reparations. It'll last as long as the tribute keeps flowing; that's not a relationship I want Ulyssian to enter into.
He doesn't exactly have a history of negotiating with others as equals. That could change, I suppose, but I'm not incredibly hopeful. There's a good chance that what he considers to be "very accommodating" would be unacceptable to the voters in this thread.
 
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She's pragmatic, yes, but in an extremely different way than Ulyssian. Odyssial may have been brutally efficient, but he had a lofty dream. He even had true friends that he trusted deeply. Mnemon understands only power and fear.

Fundamentally, their long-term goals are incompatible. This doesn't preclude a short-term alliance, but what is Mnemon guaranteed to get out of it before it falls apart? Ulyssian's advantage is immediate.


He doesn't exactly have a history of negotiating with others as equals. That could change, I suppose, but I'm not incredibly hopeful.

Well who says it has to be as equals? If it comes to it we could just assert our dominance and force him to submit to us since a general of his calibre would be very useful for us.
 
[X] Blow Them Off / Decline
Walking into a deathtrap and/or wasting time? No thanks.

I don't consider the circumstances nearly exigent enough to justify unnecessarily allying with Mnemon. We can beg forgiveness by giving them the Bull's head.

[X] "Liberate" Them
 
[X] Blow Them Off / Decline
Walking into a deathtrap and/or wasting time? No thanks.

I don't consider the circumstances nearly exigent enough to justify unnecessarily allying with Mnemon. We can beg forgiveness by giving them the Bull's head.

[X] "Liberate" Them

Or we can just kill Mnemon and the rest of the realm's leadership with our sorcerously enhanced legions/allies
 
Well who says it has to be as equals? If it comes to it we could just assert our dominance and force him to submit to us since a general of his calibre would be very useful for us.
Less useful than Realm backing, though, which is what the Bull would cost us. We already had a decision point where we could've have gone full Mongol and started recruiting Celestials, and we turned it down.
 
Less useful than Realm backing, though, which is what the Bull would cost us. We already had a decision point where we could've have gone full Mongol and started recruiting Celestials, and we turned it down.

Who cares about the Realm's backing when we can just conquer them? Hell the Bull has been kicking the shit out of the Realm's legions for a while and him making landfall is considered to be game over for them so I don't see why we should cling to the Realm instead of steamrolling them and as for "We already had a decision point where we could've have gone full Mongol and started recruiting Celestials, and we turned it down" yeah as I recall certain people turned it down because it would upset our precious precious Realm which we needed soooooooooooo badly at the time and now when we have the chance to gain some strong allies we can't because "but the REALM".
 
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Hm, it's looks like there's no easy path to consensus through this, either... Well, I'll update with the Buffing Moon Working decision point in a couple of hours (could be as short as one), and we'll see whether you lie in the bed you've made.
 
Who cares about the Realm's backing when we can just conquer them?
Ulyssian can't just up and conquer the Realm without seizing the Sword, and all that does is give him a big stick. It doesn't give him the loyalty of the Houses, control of trade & infrastructure, the ability to issue edicts and have them enforced, or command of the legions.
Hell the Bull has been kicking the shit out of the Realm's legions for a while and him making landfall is considered to be game over for them so I don't see why we should cling to the Realm instead of steamrolling them and as for "We already had a decision point where we could've have gone full Mongol and started recruiting Celestials, and we turned it down"
The Bull can't solo the Realm. He can't even come close, really. He beat House Tepet's legions, possibly due to the fact that there was sabotage from other Houses who wanted to take the Tepet down a peg. He is a remarkable general with a Solar Circle Sorceror ally and a lot of men, but he is nowhere near the equal of the Realm.
yeah as I recall certain people turned it down because it would upset our precious precious Realm which we needed soooooooooooo badly at the time and now when we have the chance to gain some strong allies we can't because "but the REALM".
The same arguments hold true now, and we're finally in a position to reap the rewards of our investment.
 
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Would Zao be able to tell that we worked over Moon to grant her more power?
.... actually, can we buff zao instead? then have him become the next emperor?

[X] Train Stealth / Larceny Charms (Assassination focus)
You raise an interesting point. We shouldn't be doing sorcerous workings all day long, training regular charms would still be super useful and in many cases more useful then making a sorcerous working.
And we have all that free time now...
 
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Why use our current 2 workings. When we are done, we could probably suggest doing a working for him. He certainly has the resources needed to pay for a major working that would allow him better capability.
Asking him to pay for it is still buffing him. And a buffed zao is gonna be super awesome to have around

Writing Moon's buffs is taking forever...
fun fact, buffing original meaning (and still used in metal working) is "to rub until its shiny".
Are we rubbing moon until she shines?
 
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What Rains May Come, Decision Point
[ ] Sublime Grace of Mela - Mela never existed in truth, but ten thousand dragons and three hundred million mortals revere her as a progenitor and saint. The power of that belief can be channeled and harnessed. Though only the heretical and uneducated actually pray directly to the Dragons, nonetheless an Immaculate Dragon, were they actually to live today, would benefit from an absolutely astronomical Cult rating. By working backwards from Immaculate texts and fully utilizing the latent potential in her Shogun Blood, Moon can shape her essence to attain in truth what was once merely the province of legend and myth.

*Blood of Life - Moon will gain a matchless vigor, with grace to exceed the winds themselves, and a vivacious flush of beauty to rival the greatest of Gaian daevas. Further, her Shogun infertility is cured, allowing her to start a Dynastic Empire as the Scarlet Empress did before her. However, this will undoubtedly attract a great number of Dragon-Blooded suitors, as they instinctively recognize the ideal of Draconic perfection. All who behold her understand that she is literally Mela reincarnated, a herald of the end times and the avenging sword of the Dragons. The intrinsic truth of this is clear, and far greater than the power of a mere Sidereal Resplendency.

*Petitioner of Clouds Accordant to the Call of Battle - Within the Abilities of the Air Aspect (Lore, Occult, Linguistics, Stealth, Thrown), Moon/Mela may wield custom Charms of Solar-level potency. Her themes are training (of self and others), selflessness, wind manipulation, calculation, and battle. However, outside of wind manipulation, the majority of her effects, no matter how potent, are personal in scale or require teamwork to fully wield.

*The Ends of the World -
It took the apocalypse of the Usurpation to draw forth the Immaculate Dragons. Fueling the transformation requires an investiture of the very deepest of Gaia's energies. Moon must be transported to the Elemental Pole of Air, and the ritual will temporarily drain the Pole, causing global warming for a period of decades to follow and massive disruption of the world's air currents. These effects may be predicted and accounted for through Prophet of Seventeen Cycles, but the resulting Northern Fae invasions are less amenable to calculation.

---

[ ] Blossom of the Ice Dragon - While a broad-spectrum enhancement is great, it's simply more practical to immediately elevate Moon to Third Circle Daeva level in a focused field of endeavor immediately, preferably one that Zao doesn't already cover. Inherent in Luseng is the immortal enchantment which allows its aquatic life to chill themselves. With the assistance of an Abyssal Exalt and an Air Caste Dragon-Blooded - the two Exalted forms closest to the concepts of cold and ice - a Sorcerer of the Solar Circle can refine and concentrate that enchantment, permanently gifting it to that Air Aspect in order to wield as she wishes. Linked to an Exaltation, a font of imperishable might, the conceptual cold of Luseng's enchantment will be elevated to levels precipitous and heretofore unseen.

*The Winter Empress - Moon will gain access to ice- and cold-based effects on the level of an Abyssal Exalt, including perfect effects, with the additional elemental manipulation bonus of her Shogun lineage. This includes physical, as well as metaphorical, cold. She attains a level of immediate mastery over physical cold equal to that of a cold-embodying Third Circle Fetich Soul of a major Primordial, and can effectively bury entire nations in apocalyptic winter. (Near-Endbringer level cryokinesis)

*Let It Go - Of course, distilling and converting the enchantment into a personal buff for Moon means that you will have to sacrifice Luseng's greatest export, its self-chilling trout. Within the bounds of Luseng, Moon herself can chill whatever you like.

(Abyssal exalt - cold of death, Air Caste DB - chill of life)

---

[ ] Write-In: Of course, you can choose any of the previous buffs for Moon as well (unlock SMA, unlock SCS, Wind Elemental buff), but they will either overlap with Zao or not be quite as powerful as these effects, which sacrifice much to bring out the absolute maximum amount of power that can be directed in a Working of the Solar Circle.

Please also determine what you want your second Working to do. You may also choose to [ ] Double-buff Moon, though that is inadvisable as Mela does not canonically possess the Winter Empress' level of ice-related powers.
 
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