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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Elero said:
There are so many loopholes in this, I hardly even know where to start. Was this really the best you could come up with?

Couldn't he still write it down? Or even if he can't, he can still tell people "Ulyssian is an extreme threat that has to be stopped" without disclossing details. Or he could lie. He could lie to the Realm and plant evidence that Uly is an Abyssial, Nilul is a Solar Eclipse etc.

Why is it limited to a year and a day?
He could murder the people of Luseng as long as he doesn't "harass" them or continue his sabotage.
He could kill all traders leaving or entering our lands, cause storms to sink ships, attack us with other armies that aren't beatmen, use false-flag attacks to get other people to attack us, impersonate our officials, etc.
And the requirement for negotiations is completely useless, he can just demand completely ridiculous things if he doesn't want to extend it.
Why does this even restrict Uly's actions? The deal was that Ragnar would leave us alone, why bind us, too?
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Disclose covers all forms of communication. And if he goes around trying to raise a coalition with lies, we can kill him.

And raising storms to vex Luseng and killing merchants to cut it off from commerce is harassing or intentionally causing the people of Luseng to be harassed. Murdering random Luseng citizens is certainly harassing the population. None of your supposed loopholes actually are loopholes here, not even by the mere word of the oath.

Adding reciprocation of nonaggression makes the oath less one-sided. There is no reason not to give him that concession if it makes the rest easier. The expiration at a year and day is standard for oaths and means we aren't bound either if we want to renegotiate or abrogated the deal. The requirement to attempt to renegotiate is simply to avoid sneak attacks and the like. Being bound against something we have no intention of doing anyway to help placate Ragmar's pride is relatively efficient.
 
Elero said:
No to which part? Because he could simply lie about a details or state negatives like "He is definitely not a Dragonblooded"
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Again, the action can't be intentional disclosure. If he states negatives, he is still doing intentional disclosure. If he is lies without disclosing "natures and identities and capabilities", what will the lie accomplish?

And that makes it an even worse deal for us. Why offer him more than he already demands?
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I doubt he will allow an oath where he cannot defend himself.
 
Wait accept actually allows letting this guy live? I thought it was just letting him live long enough to give us answers of dubious usefulness before we executed him like the scum he is.

I still don't think it's worth it, this guy is way too slippery to let live for long enough to give us answers and give the hundreds of different ways he can lie to us and screw us over it's not worth letting him live a single second longer. Sure Lily will be disappointed that she isn't getting the location of her enemy but Ragmar might not know it anyway and we can always just go play hunter killer later on.
 
Diller said:
Seriously. The guy told that that even wth the oaths we'll have to bribe him to not kill our people.



We literally will have to pay him to not fuck with our people and he won't accept oaths that will completely screw him over.

Also the guy was planning how to get back at us despite suspecting we have an eclipse caste to bind him to oaths. That means he has someway to help loophole through the oaths at least
the ones He'll take.



See if we try to screw him over, then he'll let us kill him.
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Ok you clearly have NO idea what you're talking about and are completely misundrstanding and misrepresenting Ragmar's character
Rihaku said:
Uh, then just read it again? He says "my life for your answers," that's it. Then he says that you can pay him in Jade if you want him to spare your people.
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He's simply willing to agree to an ADDITIONAL condition (not attack our people) if we also offer something in exchange

Rihaku said:
Once one adopts the principle, "I am willing to sacrifice anything if it means saving my own life," then - when you give an inch - even an idiot knows to take a mile. Some people prefer to die free rather than live a slave. If four questions is not so different from three, then is not five so different from four? And after five comes six, after six comes seven, and so on and so forth... no, he will not go down that path, and you may think whatever you like of him for it.
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This means he's just both smart and pragmatic enough to know that if he gives us an inch we'll take a mile and that he has his pride so if he's going to die he wants to die as a free man instead of our bitch being strung along by threat of death.

Elero said:
There are so many loopholes in this, I hardly even know where to start. Was this really the best you could come up with?

Couldn't he still write it down? Or even if he can't, he can still tell people "Ulyssian is an extreme threat that has to be stopped" without disclossing details. Or he could lie. He could lie to the Realm and plant evidence that Uly is an Abyssial, Nilul is a Solar Eclipse etc.

Why is it limited to a year and a day?
He could murder the people of Luseng as long as he doesn't "harass" them or continue his sabotage.
He could kill all traders leaving or entering our lands, cause storms to sink ships, attack us with other armies that aren't beatmen, use false-flag attacks to get other people to attack us, impersonate our officials, etc.
And the requirement for negotiations is completely useless, he can just demand completely ridiculous things if he doesn't want to extend it.
Why does this even restrict Uly's actions? The deal was that Ragnar would leave us alone, why bind us, too?
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WorldSlayer said:
Wait accept actually allows letting this guy live? I thought it was just letting him live long enough to give us answers of dubious usefulness before we executed him like the scum he is.

I still don't think it's worth it, this guy is way too slippery to let live for long enough to give us answers and give the hundreds of different ways he can lie to us and screw us over it's not worth letting him live a single second longer. Sure Lily will be disappointed that she isn't getting the location of her enemy but Ragmar might not know it anyway and we can always just go play hunter killer later on.
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Elero said:
What if he walks out in his War form? Then we have to either give orders not to bother him to our guards, making us look extremely suspicious, or break our deal because he was molested when leaving.
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Eclipse oaths enforce the SPIRIT of the agreement NOT the letter so he can't loophole like that
 
Now that I think about it, maybe taking the non aggression pact is probably counterproductive. It is not exactly as we need it. On the other hand, Great Library of Auseng Bu is in beastmen territory. He does control a lot of our territory.
 
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1986ctcel said:
Eclipse oaths enforce the SPIRIT of the agreement NOT the letter so he can't loophole like that
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If it's just the spirit of the agreement then why does Rihaku want us to word the oaths ourselves? It should be fairly simple to word them correctly if it was about the spirit.

Also, Uly's up against Ragmar who has full Intelligence and Manipulation Excellencies, while you guys are just up against little old me.
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What would he use those Excellencies for if not to find loopholes in the agreement?

you can PAY me to limit my future actions with regardless to your essentially defenseless populace in certain ways bound by oath, which are likely not to preclude the full range of potential actions I could precipitate upon them if I REALLY wanted to.
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Rihaku even said outright that we're unlikely to get an oath that completely stops him from harming our population, no matter what we do.
 
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The spirit of "I will not walk to Luseng" and "I will not travel to Luseng" are very different.

In the case of disclosing Ulyssian's identity, nature, and capabilities it would prevent him from deliberately causing anyone else to find out for, by example, leading them on with intriguing not-quite violations because if he did he would intentionally be the cause for that disclosure. In the second case "harass" covers actions the deliberately make life more difficult for Luseng citizens or otherwise vex them, and killing people or driving off merchants is very much covered by that case.

But if you want to start from the assumption that Ragmar is suicidally determined to destroy Ulyssian and can walk his way out of any possible oath, then whatever, nothing I say can possibly convince you.
 
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Elero said:
If it's just the spirit of the agreement then why does Rihaku want us to word the oaths ourselves? It should be fairly simple to word them correctly if it was about the spirit.
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That was in response to attempts that want substantially more than what was presented in the update.


What would he use those Excellencies for if not to find loopholes in the agreement?
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He will not be completely denuded of ways to attack, even by following the spirit of the agreement? Expressly so if you want try something more that what was presented in the option?


Rihaku even said outright that we're unlikely to get an oath that completely stops him from harming our population, no matter what we do.
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Only if he goes way out of the way and try to harm us by any possible means.
 
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Alectai said:
"Not being able to take on Sesus Ulyssian in a straight fight in his home ground" is not an indication of scrubbishness. There aren't a whole lot of creatures in the setting who could get away with that.
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Is Wake the Sleeper plus Fate-Shifting still broken? *checks*

Yup, it's still broken.

Aloysius said:
Lily's true nature : of all the no doubt valuable info he has on hand, he dangle one bound to create a divide between the people that are cornering him and, apparently, allied against him.
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Interesting, no? Wouldn't you want to know what it is?
 
Alectai said:
Can you explain how leaving the treacherous person alive who will straight up refuse to be bound further than "I live, in exchange for three pieces of information, unless you pay me to do more. Is advantageous to the big picture?
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1. The thing in the mountain sounds like a bigger threat than him, and that lets us prepare as well as avoiding bumbling into something that can kill us too early
2. All that jade
3. We owe lily
4. All that jade
5. That info on lily's true nature is something we are unlikely to get elsewhere as per QM explicitly saying so
6. All that jade!
7. Not starting a fight with the bull. Even if we win creation loses (and if ally with the bull then he is going to be bound to not fuck with as a subordinate of the bull)

Seriously that jade!
 
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Indeed, I'd like to throw out a next decision point shortly, so please make life easier for the vote-count talliers if you could!
 
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Cavalier said:
But if you want to start from the assumption that Ragmar is suicidally determined to destroy Ulyssian and can walk his way out of any possible oath, then whatever, nothing I say can possibly convince you.
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Yeah, there seems to be quite much non-productive paranoia going on at my side. I might be willing to switch sides if we can sharpen up the oaths to a certain degree and analyze if there is anything else we might have missed.

Speaking of paranoia, here is some hopefully constructive to the second topic Ragmar offers to reveal the truth about:
"Her true nature for another," he said, though this caused no noticeable reaction.
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"Her true nature is that she is an Abyssal Exalt, whose Exaltations were made by the Neverborn by twisting the Solar Exaltation to their dark mirrors." Though I think it is likely The Lily would have reacted to this if she was "just" a normal deathknight, so this is a bit reaching far from me, I admit.

Your wording on the third oath relevant to this is:
3. Ragmar will answer three questions of Sesus Ulyssian truthfully and to the fullest extent of his knowledge without omission or misleading intent; and afterward will be allowed to leave Luseng unmolested.
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Would the later part be enough to counter such intent? He could be screwing with us not by misleading with the answers, but misleading with playing our assumptions that The Lily is something special even if she isn't. Again, I'm not that sure about the chances of it working, but as we are going to ask the questions he has offered anyway (I assume?) couldn't the wording be updated regarding to this and the whole false-memory issue with these two additions?
3. Ragmar will give answers to the three questions about The Lily's enemy, her true nature and what lies inside the Emerald Mountain, which he just offered to Sesus Ulyssian truthfully, with the assumption that they were made with the fullest extent of his knowledge without omission or misleading intent, and will answer to these questions to the fullest extent of his knowledge without omission or misleading intent; and afterward will be allowed to leave Luseng unmolested; if he later becomes aware of having been lying about these topics without knowing at the moment, he will be seen as having broken the oath.
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Or would all this be just redundant with the Eclipse -type oaths enforcing the spirit of the oath, not the letter?

EDIT: Some wording was corrected. For example "agreement" in the end was supposed to be "letter".
 
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[x] Just Kill Him

Mostly, I want to kill him because I remember a vote to get answers from some Infernals instead of killing them, and then the next update didn't actually have any answers- instead it just skipped over that whole thing and moved on to some other junk. I'm not particularly interested in once again trying to get information, having "Ulyssian totally got that" instead of seeing the scene close, and then moving on to other things with background factors moving about. Interrogating people in this quest is a nonstarter, so let's not bother. Enslaving or recruiting them at least works but that's not really on the table here.

So let's just murder him, because either way we don't get a dramatic reveal and this way we at least get more XP. Plus, the Bull's an ass and him getting Ragnar's in-person assessment of our capabilities strikes me as undesirable.
 
This is not a full or cleaned up vote tally. Its just an example about ONE CHOICE, NOT THE VOTE and how it looks on the vote counter, so that people can understand how much fun its to clean up or their little different wordings that don't cause any changes to our actions, in addition of all the the normal shorter-to-lengthier worded standard votes. Am I a bit frustrated? Why, yes! How did you know! :D

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Just Kill Him
No. of votes: 11
Thomasfoolery, Alectai, Orm Embar, Savonarola, skaro, Emerald Oracle, meianmaru, CrawlingChaos74, Usernames, Dark Lord Bob, Nezi karaketas
[X] Just Kill Him[+50,000 XP]
No. of votes: 5
Diller, Mishco, arrepio, Elero, Aloysius
[X] Render him into a Working
No. of votes: 2
Daniel14541, AZATHOTHoth
[X] KILL HIM
No. of votes: 2
TheOtherSandman, DOOMPOTATO
[X] Kill him, and use his carcass for something.
No. of votes: 1
VanusDraco
[x] Just Kill Him ​
No. of votes: 1
Ridiculously Average Guy
-[x] In the aftermath explaining why we could not trust his words to the Lily
No. of votes: 1
Emerald Oracle
 
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DarkLight140 said:
[x] Just Kill Him

Mostly, I want to kill him because I remember a vote to get answers from some Infernals instead of killing them, and then the next update didn't actually have any answers- instead it just skipped over that whole thing and moved on to some other junk. I'm not particularly interested in once again trying to get information, having "Ulyssian totally got that" instead of seeing the scene close, and then moving on to other things with background factors moving about. Interrogating people in this quest is a nonstarter, so let's not bother. Enslaving or recruiting them at least works but that's not really on the table here.

So let's just murder him, because either way we don't get a dramatic reveal and this way we at least get more XP. Plus, the Bull's an ass and him getting Ragnar's in-person assessment of our capabilities strikes me as undesirable.
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Well thats kind of a petty reason for throwing away information and an opportunity to repay our debt to Lily
 
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