[Exalted, ?] Most High

[Diller]

Oh and I just remembered unless we want to increase the likelihood of Nilul's secret getting out, how the hell are we going to covertly tell her to disguise herself as an eclipse caste without leaving and risking Ragmar escaping?

Can we use infallible messenger to send a covert message?

Actually I just remembered something else. Dude knows we have Ambition and he knows that the solars where Leas by He-Whi-Must-Not-Be-Named who also had Ambution. How long do you think it will take for him to put
2 and 2 together?

Do you honestly think he'll allow himself to face off in direct combat of the guy who his elders used to tell him horror stories of. No he will do the smart thing of indirectly fucking us over, telling the Gardener about us and how Lily knew, telling Lily's Fae for that we're coming, warning the Bull of us, spreading rumors about us and Lily to the Realm, killing our people if we don't pay him not to(we spare his fucking life and he would have the nerve to tell us to bribe him to NOT kill our people.)

All the while hiding like the little shit that he is.

I'm actually down with interrogating him but afterwards he needs to die immediately. He knows far too much and is both too smart and too much if a treacherous snake for us not to expect hi to screw us over royally in the future.

 

[Alectai]

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Ragmar is going to come back and have another go at Ulyssian. He is quite aware of the power differential, and we can trust him not to be an idiot if nothing else. Binding him not to disclose or intentionally cause to be disclosed Ulyssian's nature, or that of his comrades, to anyone else unless they already know and Ragmar explicitly knows for a fact that they know, should for example severely limit his options for mischief. And paying a tribute of Jade to barbarians for nonaggression is Empire Management 101; we need to stop taking all opposition so personally.

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He won't come back and have another go at us, he'll arrange things so that other people do it for him, or he'll actively work to destroy him. Note that we literally have to pay him to make him accept any other bargains. And he can just straight up go "Yeah, that concedes too much advantage to you, so give me the Jade Mountain or don't even bother".

Once his life is guaranteed, there's nothing stopping him from going "Want me to stay silent? Yeah, I'll do that if you give me the Jade Mountain and promise to let me have it", and he'll demand to get his life guaranteed before he agrees to any other bargains.

 

[Diller]

, A trade - my life for your answers? I hear you have an Eclipse Caste of some sort, so we wouldn't have to rely on trust. And you certainly won't get the information out of me any other way."

"What do you know that I would possibly want?" Ulyssian asked. "And what is this about an 'Eclispe Caste?'"

"I wonder," Ragmar mused. "Let's see... the location of that Miss' greatest enemy, for one," he began, and all warmth drained from The Lily's features as they became deathly serious. Angelic still, but an angel of extinction.

"Her true nature for another," he said, though this caused no noticeable reaction

"And finally," he hmmed, "what's in the Emerald Mountain. Yes, that should be plenty to secure my release, don't you think? I'll even promise not to hurt your people again, if you can provide me some jade."

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Look at the bolded. He is the one who suggested we oathbind him as it's
the only way he'll talk and even then he still wants us to pay him to never hurt our people again.

He won't even swear an oath to never
harm our people again unless we brine him and you think he won't find someway to screw us over?

 

[Aloysius]

I think the controversy hinges mostly on the interpretation we make of his character : either sufficiently risk adverse and pragmatic to decide there are others, less difficult cats to skin ; or liable to hold a grudge and come back for more at any time.
I didn't hear his voice as the one of someone that would accept easily such a setback. To my mind he's likelier to search a means to dispose of us without risking himself rather than leave us alone : his instinct of conservation seemed entwined with a certain idea of who he is, such as he wouldn't lower himself to beg ignominiously for his life but also wouldn't suffer such a defeat without retaliating in some way.

 

[Cavalier]

He won't come back and have another go at us, he'll arrange things so that other people do it for him, or he'll actively work to destroy him. Note that we literally have to pay him to make him accept any other bargains. And he can just straight up go "Yeah, that concedes too much advantage to you, so give me the Jade Mountain or don't even bother".

Once his life is guaranteed, there's nothing stopping him from going "Want me to stay silent? Yeah, I'll do that if you give me the Jade Mountain and promise to let me have it", and he'll demand to get his life guaranteed before he agrees to any other bargains.

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This is, frankly, paranoid nonsense. Blackmail only works when the secret getting out is worse than the costs of murdering the blackmailer. Ragnar is not an idiot, and has employed utility calculations to determine how far he can go to get an advantage. Since he can also tell Ulyssian is not an idiot he will know full well there is a point at which killing Ragmar is better than allowing him to profit over-much. Trying to extort the Jade Mountain is so far over that line it'seems ridiculous.

And again, we've got three chances to constrain his course of action; if he can't tell anyone who doesn't already know who Ulyssian is, his options for blackmail severely diminish.

 

[Diller]

It does take her some effort to offload the consequences of an oath, it's not trivially done, and he will likely insist on a wording that is essentially uncounterable, like "and all the contents of this oath I personally guarantee to be entirely consistent with both the letter and the expressed spirit of the agreement, as outlined by Ragmar previously, and if they are not let me be immediately forsworn."

Click to shrink...

Once one adopts the principle, "I am willing to sacrifice anything if it means saving my own life," then - when you give an inch - even an idiot knows to take a mile. Some people prefer to die free rather than live a slave. If four questions is not so different from three, then is not five so different from four? And after five comes six, after six comes seven, and so on and so forth... no, he will not go down that path, and you may think whatever you like of him for it.

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Dude won't let us fuck him over. In fact he will be going for wording that expressively prevents us from screwing him over and he is an 1000 yr old Lunar known for his Treachery and cunning so you can bet your ass he'll make that shit as tight as he can.

 

[winking sequence]

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Ragmar is going to come back and have another go at Ulyssian. He is quite aware of the power differential, and we can trust him not to be an idiot if nothing else. Binding him not to disclose or intentionally cause to be disclosed Ulyssian's nature, or that of his comrades, to anyone else unless they already know and Ragmar explicitly knows for a fact that they know, should for example severely limit his options for mischief. And paying a tribute of Jade to barbarians for nonaggression is Empire Management 101; we need to stop taking all opposition so personally.

Click to shrink...

I think he will try to continue to fuck with us because his motivation is probably something along the lines of "Fuck with and destroy the Realm/Bronze Faction". Maybe we can convince him we are not exactly the Realm's boy toy? Make a temporary alliance against Anys? Granted, he does not exactly sound like he will be a good ally..

I primarily am voting Accept because I want to know the answers to those questions.

 

[Elero]

It would probably help the accept faction if they came up with an oath that can actually prevent him from harming us. Because we will have to do that and I'm afraid to vote for Accept because if it wins and we don't get sufficiently good oaths, we're screwed.

 

[Alectai]

This is, frankly, paranoid nonsense. Blackmail only works when the secret getting out is worse than the costs of murdering the blackmailer. Ragnar is not an idiot, and has employed utility calculations to determine how far he can go to get an advantage. Since he can also tell b Ulyssian is not an idiot he will know full well there is a point at which killing Ragmar is better than allowing him to profit over-much. Trying to extort the Jade Mountain is so far over that line it'seems ridiculous.

And again, we've got three chances to constrain his course of action; if he can't tell anyone who doesn't already know who Ulyssian is, his options for blackmail severely diminish.

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Please provide some oaths then so we can see what he would demand in exchange?

Once his life is guaranteed by the first oath (The one he's demanding first), there is nothing stopping him from making whatever demands he wants for any future Oaths, because we will be bound to let him go, and he's still profited off of this engagement, because he lost nothing but essence, and he gained a great deal of intelligence on our inner circle (He would know we have an Eclipse, possibly Nilul's nature depending on how good his Perception is), he would know we're in cahoots with the Lily, and he would know we are Odyssial as soon as he bothers to check. And he managed to probe us and develop a resistance (If not one capable of stopping Ambition--yet) and a taste for our favored weapon. That's enough to cause some serious fucking trouble if he holds a grudge (Possible, because you don't get to be a barbarian warlord if you allow slights to go unpunished, and maiming him and forcing him to bargain for his life definitely qualifies as a slight).

Unless we can get some seriously ironclad oaths, and that he won't demand anything too ridiculous for them (Difficult, as Rihaku already said he isn't going to make an oath that puts him at a net disadvantages). He's too dangerous to let live.

 

[winking sequence]

"Not being able to take on Sesus Ulyssian in a straight fight in his home ground" is not an indication of scrubbishness. There aren't a whole lot of creatures in the setting who could get away with that.

Even with our victory, he's still confident he'd be able to destroy us if he gets another chance, especially given that he'll straight up refuse to swear any oaths that restrict his options with regards to fucking us up unless we basically pay him off. I don't want to give him that chance.

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He is not exactly going to screw us over if we are being helpful, will he? Consider this our first change to get Lunars on our side. They are primarily interested in screwing over the Realm/Bronze Faction. Can we have some common ground with him?

You can't prevent him from plotting against you. You can only give him juicer targets. If we kill him now, we are basically making it that much harder to get Lunars into our fold.

 

[Alectai]

He is not exactly going to screw us over if we are being helpful, will he? Consider this our first change to get Lunars on our side. They are primarily interested in screwing over the Realm/Bronze Faction. Can we have some common ground with him?

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You'll have to forgive me if I'm less then willing to expose my vitals to a man who prides himself on being called "The Treacherous"

 

[Elero]

That was one of the many questions Ragmar hoped to answer with his present expedition.

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The reason he's even in our quarters is because he wished to gather information about us. And he already succeeded. If we just let him go now he gets everything he wanted out of this (lots of valuable information about us) and a bunch of jade for something that costs him absolutely nothing, some information that will probably cause more problems for us than it solves and allows him to further manipulate us. His deal is horribly in his favour. And we're not even guaranteed he'll leave us alone.

 

[Diller]

He is not exactly going to screw us over if we are being helpful, will he? Consider this our first change to get Lunars on our side. They are primarily interested in screwing over the Realm/Bronze Faction. Can we have some common ground with him?

Click to shrink...

Trusting a guy known for his treachery and is proud of it.

The same guy who won't even promise to never hurt our people again unless we bribe him despite suspecting we have an eclipse Caste. Yeah no.

Also this whole plan hinges on getting Nilul. Who unless we want to risk getting discovered by said Lunar will have to be disguised as an Eclipse
Caste which we have to tell her to do in a way that doesn't risk letting the Lunar know she isn't an Eclipse and if we go personally to her then we risk him escaping.

Seriously does anyone on the accept
side have a way of contacting Nilul about the plan without risking the Lunar escaping once we leave the room?

 

[Cavalier]

1. Ragmar will not disclose, or intentionally cause to be disclosed, the natures and identities and capabilities of Sesus Ulyssian and indicated companions to any being that Ragmar does not explicitly know to already be aware of such.

2. In exchange for a payment of Jade tribute Ragmar will not harass or intentionally cause to be harassed the people of Luseng for the term of a year and a day; during which time the satrapy of Luseng and beastmen under Ragmar's command will not wage war or commit aggression against one another, with the expiration of said agreement requiring both parties to attempt negotiations for an extension of the agreement before taking any hostile actions against the other.

3. Ragmar will answer three questions of Sesus Ulyssian truthfully and to the fullest extent of his knowledge without omission or misleading intent; and afterward will be allowed to leave Luseng unmolested.

 

[winking sequence]

You'll have to forgive me if I'm less then willing to expose my vitals to a man who prides himself on being called "The Treacherous"

Click to shrink...

He not going to be our one true friend, if that is what you are worried about.

Trusting a guy known for his treachery and is proud of it.

The same guy who won't even promise to never hurt our people again unless we bribe him despite suspecting we have an eclipse Caste. Yeah no.

Also this whole plan hinges on getting Nilul. Who unless we want to risk getting discovered by said Lunar will have to be disguised as an Eclipse
Caste which we have to tell her to do in a way that doesn't risk letting the Lunar know she isn't an Eclipse and if we go personally to her then we risk him escaping.

Seriously does anyone on the accept
side have a way of contacting Nilul about the plan without risking the Lunar escaping once we leave the room?

Click to shrink...

Rihaku explicitly made it an option?

 

[Diller]

The reason he's even in our quarters is because he wished to gather information about us. And he already succeeded. If we just let him go now he gets everything he wanted out of this (lots of valuable information about us) and a bunch of jade for something that costs him absolutely nothing, some information that will probably cause more problems for us than it solves and allows him to further manipulate us. His deal is horribly in his favour. And we're not even guaranteed he'll leave us alone.

Click to shrink...

The guy won't even agree to stop fucking with our people unless we bribe him despite wanting to use an an Eclipse oath binding. Which means that he won't agree to an oath that prevents him from fucking with our people unless he gets some jade.

Also he won't be saying shit until he gets that oath that we won't kill him which he will make sure is as foolproof as a 1000 yr old cunning and treacherous Lunar can.

 

[winking sequence]

1. Ragmar will not disclose, or intentionally cause to be disclosed, the natures and identities and capabilities of Sesus Ulyssian and indicated companions to any being that Ragmar does not explicitly know to already be aware of such.

2. In exchange for a payment of Jade tribute Ragmar will not harass or intentionally cause to be harassed the people of Luseng for the term of a year and a day; during which time the satrapy of Luseng and beastmen under Ragmar's command will not wage war or commit aggression against one another, with the expiration of said agreement requiring both parties to attempt negotiations for an extension of the agreement before taking any hostile actions against the other.

3. Ragmar will answer three questions of Sesus Ulyssian truthfully and to the fullest extent of his knowledge without omission or misleading intent; and afterward will be allowed to leave Luseng unmolested.

Click to shrink...

Seems okay oaths to me.

 

[Alectai]

1. Ragmar will not disclose, or intentionally cause to be disclosed, the natures and identities and capabilities of Sesus Ulyssian and indicated companions to any being that Ragmar does not explicitly know to already be aware of such.

2. In exchange for a payment of Jade tribute Ragmar will not harass or intentionally cause to be harassed the people of Luseng for the term of a year and a day; during which time the satrapy of Luseng and beastmen under Ragmar's command will not wage war or commit aggression against one another, with the expiration of said agreement requiring both parties to attempt negotiations for an extension of the agreement before taking any hostile actions against the other.

3. Ragmar will answer three questions of Sesus Ulyssian truthfully and to the fullest extent of his knowledge without omission or misleading intent; and afterward will be allowed to leave Luseng unmolested.

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1: 'Oh, I'm absolutely sure that they know about your identity, how could they not? You're not exactly subtle about it, Sesus Ulyssian is known by everyone to be completely beyond what any Dragon Blood is capable of, and his companions can force compliance from even a treacherous dog like me. But this is all public knowledge mind you, surely all the world knows these important details. Whaat? You think he's a Solar? Well, you didn't hear it from me, but.....'

He doesn't need to use non-public knowledge to expose us, he just needs to crank the innuendo, and when someone says "So, he's a Solar?" He's free to say whatever he wants.

2. "Oy! Bring out the human warriors from a couple of our neighbours, he left an opening a mile wide here. I need to go and talk to everyone with a grudge against him so that we can kill the shit out of him when we come together at the end of the year when we know where he'll be.

 

[Cavalier]

Protip: Eclipse oaths enforce the spirit of the agreement. So Ragnar can't say he 'knows' the other party knows. He has to know, for certain, the other party knows or take the curse from breaking the oath.

And beast men can be expanded to cover any kind of forces. But if he takes the field like that to get around the nonaggression pact, nothing stops Ulysses from killing him.

 

[winking sequence]

1: 'Oh, I'm absolutely sure that they know about your identity, how could they not? You're not exactly subtle about it, Sesus Ulyssian is known by everyone to be completely beyond what any Dragon Blood is capable of, and his companions can force compliance from even a treacherous dog like me. But this is all public knowledge mind you, surely all the world knows these important details. Whaat? You think he's a Solar? Well, you didn't hear it from me, but.....'

He doesn't need to use non-public knowledge to expose us, he just needs to crank the innuendo, and when someone says "So, he's a Solar?" He's free to say whatever he wants.

Click to shrink...

1. Ragmar will not disclose, or intentionally cause to be disclosed, the natures and identities and capabilities of Sesus Ulyssian and indicated companions to any being that Ragmar does not explicitly know to already be aware of such.

Click to shrink...

2. "Oy! Bring out the human warriors from a couple of our neighbours, he left an opening a mile wide here. I need to go and talk to everyone with a grudge against him so that we can kill the shit out of him when we come together at the end of the year when we know where he'll be.

Click to shrink...

He will make enemies who are already inclined to attack us, attack us? What cunning!

 

[Diller]

He not going to be our one true friend, if that is what you are worried about.

Rihaku explicitly made it an option?

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Sure but I would like to have allies that we don't have to worry about an inevitable betrayal.

He made accepting an option. He didn't make covertly tell Nilul to disguise herself as an Eclipse Caste an option.

Wait doesn't he have superhuman hearing so isn't there a chance that he would hear our plan if we talked to Nilul about? (never mind how leaving him with only Lily gives him a chance to escape.)

And again he won't agree to shit unless we explicitly promise to not kill him outlined in a way he likes.

he will likely insist on a wording that is essentially uncounterable, like "and all the contents of this oath I personally guarantee to be entirely consistent with both the letter and the expressed spirit of the agreement, as outlined by Ragmar previously, and if they are not let me be immediately forsworn."

Click to shrink...

 

[Elero]

There are so many loopholes in this, I hardly even know where to start. Was this really the best you could come up with?

1. Ragmar will not disclose, or intentionally cause to be disclosed, the natures and identities and capabilities of Sesus Ulyssian and indicated companions to any being that Ragmar does not explicitly know to already be aware of such.

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Couldn't he still write it down? Or even if he can't, he can still tell people "Ulyssian is an extreme threat that has to be stopped" without disclossing details. Or he could lie. He could lie to the Realm and plant evidence that Uly is an Abyssial, Nilul is a Solar Eclipse etc.

2. In exchange for a payment of Jade tribute Ragnar will not harass or intentionally cause to be harassed the people of Luseng for the term of a year and a day; during which time the strap of Luseng and beast men under Ragmar's command will not wage war or committed agrees in against one another, with the expiration of said agreement requiring both parties to attempt negotiations for an extension of the agreement before taking any hostile actions against the other.

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Why is it limited to a year and a day?
He could murder the people of Luseng as long as he doesn't "harass" them or continue his sabotage.
He could kill all traders leaving or entering our lands, cause storms to sink ships, attack us with other armies that aren't beatmen, use false-flag attacks to get other people to attack us, impersonate our officials, etc.
And the requirement for negotiations is completely useless, he can just demand completely ridiculous things if he doesn't want to extend it.
Why does this even restrict Uly's actions? The deal was that Ragnar would leave us alone, why bind us, too?

 

[winking sequence]

There are so many loopholes in this, I hardly even know where to start. Was this really the best you could come up with?

Couldn't he still write it down? Or even if he can't, he can still tell people "Ulyssian is an extreme threat that has to be stopped" without disclossing details. Or he could lie. He could lie to the Realm and plant evidence that Uly is an Abyssial, Nilul is a Solar Eclipse etc.

Click to shrink...

Disclosure is disclosure, no matter the medium in which it happens. So, no.

Why is it limited to a year and a day?
He could murder the people of Luseng as long as he doesn't "harass" them or continue his sabotage.
He could kill all traders leaving or entering our lands, cause storms to sink ships, attack us with other armies that aren't beatmen, use false-flag attacks to get other people to attack us, impersonate our officials, etc.
And the requirement for negotiations is completely useless, he can just demand completely ridiculous things if he doesn't want to extend it.
Why does this even restrict Uly's actions? The deal was that Ragnar would leave us alone, why bind us, too?

Click to shrink...

It is a ceasefire agreement.

 

[winking sequence]

Sure but I would like to have allies that we don't have to worry about an inevitable betrayal.

He made accepting an option. He didn't make covertly tell Nilul to disguise herself as an Eclipse Caste an option.

Wait doesn't he have superhuman hearing so isn't there a chance that he would hear our plan if we talked to Nilul about? (never mind how leaving him with only Lily gives him a chance to escape.)

And again he won't agree to shit unless we explicitly promise to not kill him outlined in a way he likes.

Click to shrink...

We are not going to become allies. We are simply sparing an enemy because it is advantageous to do so.

He "likes" us to not break the agreement from our end. Obviously. We have to make sure we don't leave him backdoors, and he will make sure we will not have backdoors.

 

[Elero]

Disclosure is disclosure, no matter the medium in which it happens. So, no.

Click to shrink...

No to which part? Because he could simply lie about a details or state negatives like "He is definitely not a Dragonblooded"

It is a ceasefire agreement.

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And that makes it an even worse deal for us. Why offer him more than he already demands?