[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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- exalted (white wolf)
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Mkay. Arguments for killing Ragmar are quite compelling, with the negatives currently seeming to weight more than the positives on the scales. So going to vote for eliminating the traitor before he has the chance to betray us. With that in mind, I would like for people who are voting to kill him to consider one change to their vote because of this:
[X] Just Kill Him
[X] A Threshold State
If we are going to anger the Bull anyway, better to add further injury to injury with a heaping amount of insult thrown in:
[X] Just Kill Him
[X] A Threshold State
While the Guild is horrifying to people it enslaves, this won't help those people who are being targeted by them much. However, if we stole the money from the people who the Bull has unified, it might weaken him, which is good as he is likely to come knocking on our doorstep anyway if we kill Ragmar. And we can throw it in as one more public feat of valor to further support our Grand Heresy as a good Anathema.
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With Ragmar dead doesn't that mean his gigantic beast horde is up for grabs? It might be possible for Uly to go in and pretend to be Ragmar and then have the horde attack someone. After all if Ulyssian successfully takes over the horde he could use it to attack absolutely anyone and it would be believable due to Ragmar's propensity to betray. This is a great opportunity to steal or halt an army that we have here and I doubt such an opportunity will literally walk in the door again.
Hell we could have the horde attack the Bull even, now that would give him something to be displeased about. Although I am curious about why the Bull would be displeased if Ragmar was slain, did he use some lunar charm to lie? Or perhaps they have some deal going on, although I'm not sure who would be foolish enough to actually trust him in a deal.
Well it won't matter if we kill him anyway, after all once he's dead he won't exactly be able to tell anyone why he disappeared.
Hell we could have the horde attack the Bull even, now that would give him something to be displeased about. Although I am curious about why the Bull would be displeased if Ragmar was slain, did he use some lunar charm to lie? Or perhaps they have some deal going on, although I'm not sure who would be foolish enough to actually trust him in a deal.
Well it won't matter if we kill him anyway, after all once he's dead he won't exactly be able to tell anyone why he disappeared.
Yeah, I don't really know enough about the Exalted setting to vote on that part. The Great Houses are fairly self-explanatory, but what about the other two choices? Can someone explain the Guild to me? And the icewalkers are the followers of the Bull?
[X] Just Kill Him
[X] A Threshold State
[X] A Threshold State
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
It would probably strengthen the arguments for Just Kill Him on how we could get the information without the Lunar telling us, as The Lily seems very invested about finding out her enemy which we could use to pay off the debt to her. Auseng Bu might have something on the Emerald Mountain within its library, and we are very good at Lore -activities, so maybe there are clues there we could uncover about what lies beneath? For The Lily, we probably have a good chance of finding out the truth with Uly's extremely good senses, investigation skills and if nothing else works, buying The Shadows of the Ancient Past -spell and straight up looking into the past. And getting to know what she really is, well, maybe asking her after we have slain her foe, likely to be a Fae.
Icewalker Tribers: Northern barbarian tribes united under The Bull of the North, a former very old mortal tribal leader who is now a decade(?) old extremely succesful Dawn Caste Solar who focuses on warfare. Has conquered much of the North with his horde, which has grown to an enormous size by uniting the tribes. Thus they have quite much in spoils of war. In addition, has a Twilight Solar as a close ally.
He likely has Celestial Exalted -level contengencies for these kinds of situations that he can screw over those who killed him from beyond the grave without even becoming a ghost. And even if not, we are the most likely candinate for the person who could have succeeded in killing him and have the reason to do so. Also, I at least want to parade around the fact we killed him publically, as more prestige and loyalty from this feat would be quite useful.
The Guild: A trading network/company/something that has a mortal leadership, and is about the most influental group when it comes to economy outside the Realm itself. It on individual basis dwarfes even the Great Houses in its collective wealth, or at least I think so, not 100% sure.
Icewalker Tribers: Northern barbarian tribes united under The Bull of the North, a former very old mortal tribal leader who is now a decade(?) old extremely succesful Dawn Caste Solar who focuses on warfare. Has conquered much of the North with his horde, which has grown to an enormous size by uniting the tribes. Thus they have quite much in spoils of war. In addition, has a Twilight Solar as a close ally.
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- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
No he said he knows he can grow RESISTANT to getting damaged by Ambition and even then it won't be enough to help him and he's not refusing to give us greater satisfaction because his position is stronger, it's because of his PRINCIPLES/PRIDE that he won't give anything else up to us except what he offered
how big is bulls army
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Don't forget to vote for the other option in the same posts, which has to be also your last post for the vote counter to pick up the X in brackets!
Rihaku has stated that the only diplomacy he would accept is us bending knee to him. No thanks.
I don't know, but the update didn't seem to mention it and Rihaku hasn't commented. Might be we got no wound levels, or that its still up in the air in our QM's head.
[X] Just Kill Him
[X] A Threshold State
[X] A Threshold State
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
Do people really want to pass up information about what the hell is inside the Mountain and if it might even be ticking time-bomb or finding out what the deal is with the Gardener's Abyssals and a chance to pay off our debt to Lilly by helping kill off her Raksha nemesis?
We can ALSO try to find loopholes in any oaths we swear to Ragmar so we can backstab if he becomes too much trouble and remember that the Bull IS helping act as a buffer for Creation against enemies like the Raksha in the North and if we get him to come after us and wind up killing him than there'll be a power vacuum for other less pleasant enemies of the Realm to fill
We can ALSO try to find loopholes in any oaths we swear to Ragmar so we can backstab if he becomes too much trouble and remember that the Bull IS helping act as a buffer for Creation against enemies like the Raksha in the North and if we get him to come after us and wind up killing him than there'll be a power vacuum for other less pleasant enemies of the Realm to fill
[X] Kill Him
[X] Hell
Is this an option?
[X] Hell
Is this an option?
- Location
- Southern Virginia
We will have to deal with many powerful, untrustworthy figures in the course of the game. Many will hold resources we need, have talents we can make use of, or hold political advantages we need for our own ends. Ragnar holds the keys to Jade Mountain, which is of inestimable value to the (deeply suboptimal) course of remaining within the Realm's power structure. We have thus far refrained from actions that would actually build on the strategy certain leading posters have shackled us to. This cannot continue; if we are going to be stuck in a Realm-centered strategy because of a sunk cost fallacy we might as well have some advantages to show for it, and Jade Mountain is an enormous advantage.
Leaving Ragmar alive is worth it for Jade Mountain. We can bind his actions and buy him off for a while. In return we obtain priceless information we have no ready means to obtain. If he does find a loophole or betrays us we can kill him then. It's an imperfect solution for an imperfect world, but if we wanted everyone to exist in accord with the will of Ulyssian we should have been a SWLIHN Infernal.
The information about Lily's "True nature" is also useful in providing another data point about how far we can trust her. The major favor from getting her the location of her enemy pays off debt accumulated by her aid with Workings. We have taken that aid for granted, and it has been very useful. If we can cement her loyalty it will be available as needed and we have a lot of need for it. Paying off a debt would be the start, and a good precedent to live up to. Saltiness over not killing her should not get in the way of making the most of the choices we have already taken.
And war with the Bull and his Circle, since he has multiple Solar vassals and Lunarallies, is going to be a seriously counterproductive development. We'll be burning effort, resources, and time and gaining comparatively little for it. Even the loyalty of the Tepet could be purchased at a much cheaper price, and if Any Syn is to reemerge with the Scarlet Empress, doing so after Luseng and Ulyssian are temporarily exhausted putting down the Bull would be perfect timing. This is a prospect we should avoid unless necessary, and killing Ragnar is not necessary.
Leaving Ragmar alive is worth it for Jade Mountain. We can bind his actions and buy him off for a while. In return we obtain priceless information we have no ready means to obtain. If he does find a loophole or betrays us we can kill him then. It's an imperfect solution for an imperfect world, but if we wanted everyone to exist in accord with the will of Ulyssian we should have been a SWLIHN Infernal.
The information about Lily's "True nature" is also useful in providing another data point about how far we can trust her. The major favor from getting her the location of her enemy pays off debt accumulated by her aid with Workings. We have taken that aid for granted, and it has been very useful. If we can cement her loyalty it will be available as needed and we have a lot of need for it. Paying off a debt would be the start, and a good precedent to live up to. Saltiness over not killing her should not get in the way of making the most of the choices we have already taken.
And war with the Bull and his Circle, since he has multiple Solar vassals and Lunarallies, is going to be a seriously counterproductive development. We'll be burning effort, resources, and time and gaining comparatively little for it. Even the loyalty of the Tepet could be purchased at a much cheaper price, and if Any Syn is to reemerge with the Scarlet Empress, doing so after Luseng and Ulyssian are temporarily exhausted putting down the Bull would be perfect timing. This is a prospect we should avoid unless necessary, and killing Ragnar is not necessary.
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Problem is that Ragmar is going to be expecting us to screw him over since he's not an idiot. Hence why'll he be asking for very specific terms that don't completely screw him over or open up for us to completely screw him over1
Hence why Rihaku keeps telling us not to underestimate him and explicitly put in the update Ragmar planning how he'll get back at us the next chance he gets despite us literally having him at sword point and that's with knowing we're going to bind him with eclipse oaths. Rihaku even implies that if he gets away we won't be able to easily find him again. After he is going to be no where near us if he can help it adnd being an 1000 yr old Lunar he is likely very very good at hiding himself. Can't kill him if we can fucking find him or have the time to find him if we're not busy dealing with what cluster duck he sent our wayz
Rihaku even told that leaving to try and switch out with Nilul risks hi escaping and we have no way to do aggravated damage.
Oh and the guy wants us to pay him to not kill our people when he leaves.
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- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
Well given his pathetic showing here do we really need to worry about him? We could probably just stomp him if he tries anything and give his beastman army a taste of what we did to the Raksha army (You are sword, they are sword, EVERYTHING IS SWORD!)
He's been sabotaging us for months and is the ring leader of a local spy ring and we didn't detect anything before he decided to try and get close to us. I wouldn't underestimate the effects of his sabotage when we're dealing with crippling overpopulation, lack of food and a messed up administration.
You expect him to fight us directly again?
Ahahahaha
Oh wait your serious?
AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
Dude is known as Ragmar the Treacherous and Ragmar the Cunning and he's proud of the former and dislikes the latter since it lets people know how cunning he is. Also the guy is 1000 yrs old.
This guy isn't going to face us directly In battle again unless he feels has something up his sleeve that can even the odds. What's more likely is that he will indirectly fuck is over while hiding his ass so that we can't find him.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
"Not being able to take on Sesus Ulyssian in a straight fight in his home ground" is not an indication of scrubbishness. There aren't a whole lot of creatures in the setting who could get away with that.
Even with our victory, he's still confident he'd be able to destroy us if he gets another chance, especially given that he'll straight up refuse to swear any oaths that restrict his options with regards to fucking us up unless we basically pay him off. I don't want to give him that chance.
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[X] Just Kill Him [+50,000 XP]
He doesn't need to lie to fuck us over. All truths are not beneficial to hear, in fact i daresay that someone like him would tell us entirely truthful things whose knowledge would leave us worse off than we were before.
For example, let's say he reveal to us where Lily's nemesis is. Then once he get out of there he contact this person, warn her we're coming for her, or directly help her to deal with us.
Lily's true nature : of all the no doubt valuable info he has on hand, he dangle one bound to create a divide between the people that are cornering him and, apparently, allied against him. Yeah. I'm not that interested anyway; either this situation will prompt the Lily to share or she won't but I don't need to have an extensive knowledge of the background of whoever we're dealing with.
The Mountain : what will change if we know for sure what's in it, I mean do we suddenly get sufficiently powerful to go seize the boon in it or defeat the threat ? I don't see why we wouldn't continue as we have, block passage to it, stopping anyone other than us to profit or awaken whatever is inside, till we think ourselves powerful enough to go deal with it.
The threat of the Bull : How likely it is that Ragmar, will scheme in such a way as to turn the attention of his ally toward crushing us anyway ? He's not swearing any kind of long term cease fire here, and killing him now would simply deprive the Bull of an asset while the might of this particular Solar is very likely to be turned toward us soon anyway.
Maybe I'm paranoid or too cautious but the trap thematic is so thick in this update I can't ignore it. I mean really, A better mousetrap as title ? The Cunning/Treacherous caught once and ready to deliver a fitting answer once he get out of dodge ?
No thanks.
[X] A Threshold State
If we're worried.
He doesn't need to lie to fuck us over. All truths are not beneficial to hear, in fact i daresay that someone like him would tell us entirely truthful things whose knowledge would leave us worse off than we were before.
For example, let's say he reveal to us where Lily's nemesis is. Then once he get out of there he contact this person, warn her we're coming for her, or directly help her to deal with us.
Lily's true nature : of all the no doubt valuable info he has on hand, he dangle one bound to create a divide between the people that are cornering him and, apparently, allied against him. Yeah. I'm not that interested anyway; either this situation will prompt the Lily to share or she won't but I don't need to have an extensive knowledge of the background of whoever we're dealing with.
The Mountain : what will change if we know for sure what's in it, I mean do we suddenly get sufficiently powerful to go seize the boon in it or defeat the threat ? I don't see why we wouldn't continue as we have, block passage to it, stopping anyone other than us to profit or awaken whatever is inside, till we think ourselves powerful enough to go deal with it.
The threat of the Bull : How likely it is that Ragmar, will scheme in such a way as to turn the attention of his ally toward crushing us anyway ? He's not swearing any kind of long term cease fire here, and killing him now would simply deprive the Bull of an asset while the might of this particular Solar is very likely to be turned toward us soon anyway.
Maybe I'm paranoid or too cautious but the trap thematic is so thick in this update I can't ignore it. I mean really, A better mousetrap as title ? The Cunning/Treacherous caught once and ready to deliver a fitting answer once he get out of dodge ?
No thanks.
[X] A Threshold State
If we're worried.
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Seriously. The guy told that that even wth the oaths we'll have to bribe him to not kill our people.
We literally will have to pay him to not fuck with our people and he won't accept oaths that will completely screw him over.
Also the guy was planning how to get back at us despite suspecting we have an eclipse caste to bind him to oaths. That means he has someway to help loophole through the oaths at least
the ones He'll take.
See if we try to screw him over, then he'll let us kill him.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Ragmar is going to come back and have another go at Ulyssian. He is quite aware of the power differential, and we can trust him not to be an idiot if nothing else. Binding him not to disclose or intentionally cause to be disclosed Ulyssian's nature, or that of his comrades, to anyone else unless they already know and Ragmar explicitly knows for a fact that they know, should for example severely limit his options for mischief. And paying a tribute of Jade to barbarians for nonaggression is Empire Management 101; we need to stop taking all opposition so personally.