[Exalted, ?] Most High

Alectai · May 12, 2015

Orm Embar said:
The proposed plan has us masquerading as Nilul. The results of that would be... amusing, to say the least.

Rihaku just said that if we take our proverbial boot off his throat, he has a good chance of escaping, as the Lily isn't fast enough to stop him if he tries to bolt.

That means if we move away, we likely get nothing.

Mannan · May 12, 2015

How strong is the Bull when compared to Ulyssian anyway?

VanusDraco · May 12, 2015

[X] Accept, then kill him anyway after he answers the questions
-[X] Swap Ulyssian and Nilul so that the former is not actually bound to spare Ragnar.
-[x] Use his body as reagent in sorcery that is focused on betrayal and breaking down stuff.(Ideally the Immaculates)

Rihaku said:
If you don't have him at swordpoint, you're not sure whether The Lily would be able to prevent him from escaping. He's about that fast, and who knows at what rate he can regenerate his limbs if you're not there to hack them off faster than he can react.

You will need to come up with the wording yourself, if you are trying the "kill him anyway" option. I'm not saying it's impossible, but due to the nature of the choice you will NOT know whether your proposed write-ins are effective until the update itself.

The previous can be solved by preemptively cut off parts (lots of useful parts, like all the limbs, plus a pretty big portion of the spine), and then have Lily continuously cuts off any parts that regenerates. Also, spread open his rib cage and poke holes into his organs with soul steel swords.

I don't care how fast you are, it's rather difficult to move when you have no limbs, your body cavity exposed and your rib cage pried open so squirming like a snake is not possible.

Alectai · May 12, 2015

VanusDraco said:
[X] Accept, then kill him anyway after he answers the questions
-[X] Swap Ulyssian and Nilul so that the former is not actually bound to spare Ragnar.
-[x] Use his body as reagent in sorcery that is focused on betrayal and breaking down stuff.(Ideally the Immaculates)

The previous can be solved by preemptively cut off parts (lots of useful parts, like all the limbs, plus a pretty big portion of the spine), and then have Lily continuously cuts off any parts that regenerates. Also, spread open his rib cage and poke holes into his organs with soul steel swords.

I don't care how fast you are, it's rather difficult to move when you have no limbs, your body cavity exposed and your rib cage pried open so squirming like a snake is not possible.

Shapeshifts into a fly or something and uses charms to zip away through a crack at high speeds.

He's already exhibited reflexive-grade shapeshifting abiity when he went from mouse-sized to full War Form in time to attack us badly enough that anyone who wasn't Ulyssian would have gotten wrecked.

Just fucking kill him before he finds a lever or a hostage, especially since he'll definitely kill the hostage because he's a treacherous fuck and is going to be annoyed with us for cornering him, even for a moment.

mrttao · May 12, 2015

Anasurimbor said:
Because he's a horrible person that we can safely eliminate right now. Creation will be a better place without him.

Using stealth does not make one a horrible person. He infiltrates and them betrays people, not for the lulz but because he has decided to kill them prior to the whole ordeal for some reason or another. We also kill people whom we decide need to die, there is nothing wrong there.
Enjoying his work does not make him a horrible person nor a threat to creation nor does it mean creation will be better without him. For all you know he only kills enemies of creation.

Also, we are fully allowed to kill him later on

Orm Embar · May 12, 2015

meianmaru said:
Ah, that's a pity, then. But I'm still not sure if I favor killing him, Accepting his deal or trying to ferret out his secrets and then killing him.

Yeah, though we have to have a detailed plan to have a chance at that, according to Rihaku. Killing Ragmar and acquiring his information is obviously the best result, it's just difficult to achieve...

Alectai said:
Rihaku just said that if we take our proverbial boot off his throat, he has a good chance of escaping, as the Lily isn't fast enough to stop him if he tries to bolt.

That means if we move away, we likely get nothing.

Just cut off all his limbs and let the Lily grab him with her Gauntlet.

VanusDraco · May 12, 2015

Alectai said:
Shapeshifts into a fly or something and uses charms to zip away through a crack at high speeds.

He's already exhibited reflexive-grade shapeshifting abiity when he went from mouse-sized to full War Form in time to attack us badly enough that anyone who wasn't Ulyssian would have gotten wrecked.

Just fucking kill him before he finds a lever or a hostage, especially since he'll definitely kill the hostage because he's a treacherous fuck and is going to be annoyed with us for cornering him, even for a moment.

I suppose that IS a good point. However, what would happen if he is to shapeshift while Lily is holding on to his spine?

Diller · May 12, 2015

Orm Embar said:
Then we can just kill him. We lose nothing by making the attempt.

Yeah leaving the guy whose proud for being known as a treacherous snake ,expected us to have an Eclipse and and told us to have the Eclipse caste bind him all the while planning for how he'll get us next alive longer than we need to is stupid. Especially when we know Nilul will only do 2-3 oaths

That's just asking for him loophole his way though

Orm Embar said:
The proposed plan has us masquerading as Nilul. The results of that would be... amusing, to say the least.

Rihaku might've shut that plan down as he did say that if we're not there keeping Ambition on him he might escape.

Rihaku said:
If you don't have him at swordpoint, you're not sure whether The Lily would be able to prevent him from escaping. He's about that fast, and who knows at what rate he can regenerate his limbs if you're not there to hack them off faster than he can react.

So there won't be time to switch

mrttao · May 12, 2015

Alectai said:
We... We don't even really have any way of convincing him not to just take Nilul hostage if she tries to sanctify an oath.

She is an exalt not some mortal damsel in distress. And besides which we are literally in the room and can kill him faster than he can get to her much less kill her.

Rihaku said:
Btw, his offer is not "Spare me and I'll tell you this info, plus let you place a bunch of restrictions on my future actions." It's "let me go, with all that entails, and I'll tell you these three pieces of info,"

I was sure it read as "let me go and I will tell you 3 things and won't fuck with you again".

... although if he does fuck with us again we kill him then. Knowing exactly what is under the mountain alone is worth it.

Alectai · May 12, 2015

VanusDraco said:
I suppose that IS a good point. However, what would happen if he is to shapeshift while Lily is holding on to his spine?

"There is no force in the universe that can deny a Lunar the ability to shapeshift"

It's as inviolate as an Exaltation's bond to a person, and thus, we don't have the time or tools to bind it. If he wants to escape, and Ulyssian isn't in a position to stop him, he will escape, because he has all the tools and all the cunning to pull it off.

Never underestimate the thousand year old Lunar who you just embarassed, and has profiled you in close combat, and is confident he'd win in a second engagement. Just Fucking Kill Him

Orm Embar · May 12, 2015

mrttao said:
Nope, he would be magically bound to never harm or threatn anything of ours again, which includes luseng. Since both killing him and accepting the deal eliminates him as a threat to luseng, it is thus not a marginal gain

That's not the case. We can pay him to refrain from taking certain courses of action against Luseng's citizenry, but the oaths involved wouldn't be comprehensive enough to prevent him from taking action if he really wanted to. In any case, the default result of Accept doesn't prevent him from attacking us, and I would argue that letting people walk in and extort us sets an awful precedent. On top of that, he simply knows too much to be allowed to leave alive.

mrttao said:
AND he will be providing us info on exaltations we do not have, further addressing threats to creation

Where are you getting this? He offers one question about the Lily's enemy (presumably the Raksha noble), one about the Lily, and one about what's in the Emerald Mountain.

Rihaku · May 12, 2015

Thomasfoolery said:
Yeah, frankly his offer is incredibly awful for us. We get a few scraps of info, he gets his life, and a few minor restrictions if we PAY him for his trouble!? It's really a garbage deal in my opinion, not the kind of thing we should be entertaining. Setting the precedent that enemy actors get off so easily is not something I'd like to do.

It's incredibly valuable information, actually. All three pieces are information you'd be hard-pressed to get otherwise, especially the latter two. I mean, you guys didn't even know there was anything up with The Lily's true nature, did you?

Mannan said:
How strong is the Bull when compared to Ulyssian anyway?

Personally? Ulyssian would stomp him 100 times out of 100. However, army vs army is a different matter, and would be much closer, with his army being favored.

VanusDraco said:
The previous can be solved by preemptively cut off parts (lots of useful parts, like all the limbs, plus a pretty big portion of the spine), and then have Lily continuously cuts off any parts that regenerates. Also, spread open his rib cage and poke holes into his organs with soul steel swords.

You don't have any soulsteel weaponry, unfortunately - but if you did, it wouldn't do anything unless you'd mastered Evocations that drain motes or something.

VanusDraco said:
I don't care how fast you are, it's rather difficult to move when you have no limbs, your body cavity exposed and your rib cage pried open so squirming like a snake is not possible.

Shoggoth mode!

TheOtherSandman · May 13, 2015

This guy betrays people like we breath air.

[X] KILL HIM

Diller · May 13, 2015

mrttao said:
She is an exalt not some mortal damsel in distress. And besides which we are literally in the room and can kill him faster than he can get to her much less kill her.
unless you are referring to the plan to leave the room to switch with nilul and come back which is just stupid (since he will just run the moment we are out of sight)

You do realize that Nilul sucks at physical combat right?

Also this fucker not only knows we're a Solar but also knows we're friends with Lily and that we have Ambition which meana he could know or later find out we're also Odyissial.

This guy knows way too fucking much for us to allow him to live. I want that info but after we get it, he needs to die. Can't risk him spilling the beans to anyone. Again the dude is proud of his betrayals and expected us to have an Eclipse Caste. Hell he won't even say shit until we have binding oaths which given the way he was planning his vengeance he has someway to get around. Also that deal he wants won't preclude him from screwing us over in the future.

mrttao · May 13, 2015

Orm Embar said:
Where are you getting this? He offers two questions about the Lily's enemy (presumably the Raksha noble) and one about what's in the Emerald Mountain.

Oh, that is one way to interpret it.
I read

Rihaku said:
"And what is this about an 'Eclispe Caste?'"
...
"Her true nature for another," he said, though this caused no noticeable reaction.

as him telling us about the true nature of eclipse caste

plan switch with nilul

that is just stupid because he will run away while we are making the switch since we must leave his sight to make the switch

Diller said:
You do realize that Nilul sucks at physical combat right?

You do realize she faked that, right?
Also, read the rest of the post, even if she was a mortal he couldn't just go from being at our sword point to holding her hostage as if we aren't even there.

Orm Embar · May 13, 2015

Rihaku said:
It's incredibly valuable information, actually. All three pieces are information you'd be hard-pressed to get otherwise, especially the latter two. I mean, you guys didn't even know there was anything up with The Lily's true nature, did you?

The Lily is a creature of duality, so I've been operating under the assumption she has a darker side, though the thread does seem to disagree.

Rihaku said:
You don't have any soulsteel weaponry, unfortunately - but if you did, it wouldn't do anything unless you'd mastered Evocations that drain motes or something.

A pity. Would've been amusing to replicate our skewering of Rajakalueh.

mrttao said:
as him telling us about the true nature of eclipse caste

No, he meant the true nature of the Lily.

Thomasfoolery · May 13, 2015

Rihaku said:
It's incredibly valuable information, actually. All three pieces are information you'd be hard-pressed to get otherwise, especially the latter two. I mean, you guys didn't even know there was anything up with The Lily's true nature, did you?

I meant scraps in the sense that compared to what he could offer us, this is all he's willing to cough up. Though yeah that wasn't expressed clearly, obviously the info is valuable, I just don't think it's near valuable enough.

Rihaku · May 13, 2015

mrttao said:
I was sure it read as "let me go and I will tell you 3 things and won't fuck with you again".

Uh, then just read it again? He says "my life for your answers," that's it. Then he says that you can pay him in Jade if you want him to spare your people.

mrttao said:
... although if he does fuck with us again we kill him then.

Good luck.

Alectai · May 13, 2015

Also, again.

There's nothing stopping him from just straight up lying.

If he doesn't have a way to edit his own memories in real time so he can lie under oath, he is a very shitty 1,000 year old intrigue master who calls himself the Treacherous.

He Wants us to bring our "Eclipse" into play, my guess is that he'll try to take her hostage and then kill her after he's out of our killbox to deny us an asset. Then he'll likely start a subversion campaign against our other assets. Again, he is not binding himself to stop fucking with us, only to answer three questions in exchange for his life.

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Kill him before he finds a vital.

Rihaku · May 13, 2015

Thomasfoolery said:
I meant scraps in the sense that compared to what he could offer us, this is all he's willing to cough up. Though yeah that wasn't expressed clearly, obviously the info is valuable, I just don't think it's near valuable enough.

I mean, I guess he could tell you dirty secrets about Lunar Elders, but that wouldn't benefit you much. The information he's offering is pertinent to your immediate situation, and is knowledge that you'd likely want to know.

mrttao · May 13, 2015

Diller said:
Also this fucker not only knows we're a Solar but also knows we're friends with Lily and that we have Ambition which meana he could know or later find out we're also Odyissial.

This guy knows way too fucking much for us to allow him to live.

1. Anys figured out who we are and went to hell with the info, all of hell knows.
2. When we started doing sorcery we took the major intimacy the lathe of heaven, when we did that the lathe started spinning again! This alerted everyone in heaven (in particular IIRC it was one of the sisters of fate who noticed first). So heaven knows
3. We have been using ambition liberally enough that some random necromancer who has never met us was able to research it independently and find out who we are before even meeting us for the first time. So random people know.

This is not really a secret

Mishco · May 13, 2015

[X] Render him into a Working
[X] A Great House (Cathak)
Alectai convinced me, we shouldn't trust this monster. We should still try to steal from House Cathak, who hates us and could be our enemy in the Civil War, rather than the Guild which would be a non-factor.

Windlass · May 13, 2015

Rihaku said:
I mean, I guess he could tell you dirty secrets about Lunar Elders, but that wouldn't benefit you much. The information he's offering is pertinent to your immediate situation, and is knowledge that you'd likely want to know.

[X] Accept

Color me convinced. I want to see the Lily's true colors.

Diller · May 13, 2015

Alectai said:
Also,again.

There's nothing stopping him from just straight up lying.

If he doesn't have a way to edit his own memories in real time so he can lie under oath, he is a very shitty 1,000 year old intrigue master who calls himself the Treacherous.

He Wants us to bring our "Eclipse" into play, my guess is that he'll try to take her hostage and then kill her after he's out of our killbox to deny us an asset. Then he'll likely start a subversion campaign against our other assets.

LUNARS CAN MODIFY THEIR OWN MEMORIES IN REAL TIME?

THAT IS BULLSHIT.

Note to self when making the oaths include condition he must undo any self memory modification.

Orm Embar · May 13, 2015

Mishco said:
Alectai convinced me, we shouldn't trust this monster. We should still try to steal from House Cathak, who hates us and could be our enemy in the Civil War, rather than the Guild which would be a non-factor.

The Guild is definitely a factor! They have tons of them, in fact.

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