Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[BirdBodhisattva]

Dear reader! Whether you are new here, archive-reading and whatnot, or you are already someone who has been with us for quite a while, I would like to say a few words that I believe are best kept close to mind.

-This is an MLP quest. And more importantly, none of us are gratuitously cruel. So good things will happen on this quest, and I hope that enough good things have already happened to prove that.
-This is also a horror quest, so bad things will happen. Bad things might happen to good characters if you are not able to protect them, and you most certainly will not be able to intervene if you lack the tools to do so.
-And finally, this is a quest in which you jostle with powers greater than yourself, with all that it entails.

Please, do keep those things in mind as you go forward. But ultimately, this is also a quest in which it is hoped we all have fun! So if any of the above points is not exactly your cup of tea, or somehow make the experience as a whole "not worth it", then this quest might not be for you. Which is fine! Individual tastes are a thing, so don't think any more about it if you don't want to read anymore. And regardless, I hope you have a lovely day!

Spoiler: Or if you'd rather hear it from someone else

PSA for whoever needs to hear it:

Readers should take their own mental health into consideration when voting and not subject themselves to triggering narrative elements like rape or constant mental torture of a friend just for the Greatest Good of a world that doesn't exist.

If those are fine for you or Regrettable is even more triggering, then GREAT! More power to you. But you aren't a bad or selfish person for picking the option that keeps the characters you've emotionally connected with safe. [REDACTED for spoiler warning]

This is a high intensity quest that doesn't hold back when it comes to horror and negative consequences. Take care of yourself.

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(Quote slightly edited to avoid spoilers)

 

[Glau]

The construction of the door vote, as well as it's inhabitants, are the main things that lead me to regarding the Mansus itself as only a half-step better than the wolf. Lores seen to make everything worse as they grant power. Mansus *should* be a reflection of reality, but it's a death trap where wrong paths or even wrong attitudes in the wrong part will get you killed. And there is no evidence ANY of the hours or longs is any happier for the climbing they did.

 

[Greymere]

Mansus *should* be a reflection of reality, but it's a death trap where wrong paths or even wrong attitudes in the wrong part will get you killed.

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...so just like reality?

 

[Dheer]

I'd not deal in such absolutes, but yes their chances were not very high.

We made it certain, but not high regardless.

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There chances of survival even in the slightest were very much non existent as the amount of obstacles' they would need to survive are ridiculous. They would have to somehow figure to escape where their trapped at, avoid or beat any of the security which is meant to keep prisoners contained, further somehow avoid the notice of the pony society which very much considers them hostiles to escape and somehow find a way to gain the love they need to survive in the short and long run. All without the ability which had their whole life's aka shapeshifting and a limited time frame which is random by the needs of the cult. For all intents and purposes statistically speaking they had no chance at all.

 

[Aranfan]

I don't see how Edge would make the blow any softer. Edge is the lore of conflict, so I can only imagine that if Velvet took this as a lesson in that direction then that means that she fully internalizes the irrepressible differences and unending hatred between herself and her victims. You don't seem the sort to prefer that.

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I don't want to soften the blow. I want velvet to acknowledge the evil of this act. This was not a mercy, it was a cold-blooded murder.

 

[MrRobot]

And what prupose other than your personal self satisfaction that will achieve?
We.Are.Out.Off.Fell.Good.Options.

So. The question we need to start asking is: how do we keep Velvet's goodness intact?

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... By doing a lot of things, getting out of the cult, its a eldrich cult it by definition twists you, gaining more power to ensure the safety of her family and friends, getting rid of the afraid traiths and then pick up the pieces when we are out of the deep, deep end we find ourselves into.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I mean, Bird flat out said they were doomed regardless of what we did. That's about as absolute you can get in a quest.

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Ah, nevermind then.

The construction of the door vote, as well as it's inhabitants, are the main things that lead me to regarding the Mansus itself as only a half-step better than the wolf. Lores seen to make everything worse as they grant power. Mansus *should* be a reflection of reality, but it's a death trap where wrong paths or even wrong attitudes in the wrong part will get you killed. And there is no evidence ANY of the hours or longs is any happier for the climbing they did.

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I mean the Mansus is beneath the Glory and the Glory is not exactly kind.

As for it being a death trap though I'm not sure what you're expecting there.

If its a reflection of reality its far from 1:1 and it deals with a lot more metaphorical things than literal ones. The closest part to being realities reflection would the Woods.

The Mansus otherwise is mostly safe if you know how to navigate it (certainly the game gives us examples of groups like religions who regularly held ceremonies in the Mansus's upper portions.) The risk is that generally speaking that knowledge isn't available.

As for happier. No idea. They might be happier, or sadder. Or they might not give a damn, or be capable of caring either way.

This was not a mercy, it was a cold-blooded murder.

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Advantageous cold blooded murder, although possibly still better than being wendigo'd.

 

[StormySky]

The changelings' deaths were pretty regrettable. It's just that, well, there was literally no way we could've done anything to help. The only variables left for them were how much more time they spent languishing in the White Room, and who or what ended up killing them.

Well then that was very interesting to read. The murderer trait is especially interesting to me as it begs the question on what exactly fulfills the criteria for it since it seems to be potentially a metaphysical trait as well as a legal trait. If it just legally speaking and Velvet viewing herself as one then it is understandable for it being a trait and does not need much explanation.

If it is metaphysical however then alot of questions come to mind. Do you get it if you are in the army who are obligated to fight the enemies of the state and kill them? Do you get it if it was accidental or by mistake? Does killing someone in self defense make you a murderer? Actually does legality matter? Does the free will and autonomy of the subject matter in this case? If you are mind controlled by a villain to do so like by Sombra for example, does it taint you like it has Velvet?

Normally would not ask this but since this is partly Cultist Simulator where here ithe conditions seem to matter as seen with the tribal door requirements being direct murder with indirect murder not counting it becomes a question which hopefully is not too strange to ask.

In essence what does it that make it obvious and clear to see for those who have the eyes? Cold reading? Experience? Seeing it on Velvet's mind through the Lores ? Magic?

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I think this is a magical/Lore-relevant thing, since it mentions that people with the right traits and abilities could see it. It's probably very adjacent to the Tribal Door's mechanics, but not quite the same. For example, escorting Jade to the Blank Door would've satisfied the Tribal Door, but would it proc Murderer? A lot of what goes into making these things count is directness of method and intent, but I think the Tribal Door cares more about method while Murderer is about intent.

Bashing someone's head in with a large rock would almost definitely work for the Tribal Door, but would dropping it on top of them from a height still work? Is triggering a rockslide or avalanche on top of them when they're going in through a mountain pass too indirect for the Tribal Door? Though it'd still give the Murderer trait if it was done with the intent of getting them killed, I believe. Where it gets tricky is when you wouldn't mean to kill someone if you'd had time and space to think it through, but it happened anyway. Things like panicked self-defense, or wanting to hurt someone (but not hurt that badly) in the heat of passion but accidentally going too far, or being Grail-bombed to an ambiguous level of free will. Any soldiers who've been on real battlefields for long enough will have the Murderer trait IMO, but I'm not sure victims of full mind control (as in it being clear-cut that they didn't have any ability whatsoever to make their own choices at the time) or people who blow up places they didn't know had people in them count.

 

[Dheer]

Advantageous cold blooded murder, although possibly still better than being wendigo'd.

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It is not possibly better than being wendigoed. It is the better option compared to being wendigoed as we literally seen what happens when that occurs in the previous updates. Comparative speaking what Velvet just did to them is very much a mercy since it was a swift fate unlike the individuals who may be still alive in the urn enduring a long painful suffering potentially far beyond than what the changelings endured depending on how much attention do the wendigos pays towards causing them suffering and agony.

I think this is a magical/Lore-relevant thing, since it mentions that people with the right traits and abilities could see it. It's probably very adjacent to the Tribal Door's mechanics, but not quite the same. For example, escorting Jade to the Blank Door would've satisfied the Tribal Door, but would it proc Murderer? A lot of what goes into making these things count is directness of method and intent, but I think the Tribal Door cares more about method while Murderer is about intent.

Bashing someone's head in with a large rock would almost definitely work for the Tribal Door, but would dropping it on top of them from a height still work? Is triggering a rockslide or avalanche on top of them when they're going in through a mountain pass too indirect for the Tribal Door? Though it'd still give the Murderer trait if it was done with the intent of getting them killed, I believe. Where it gets tricky is when you wouldn't mean to kill someone if you'd had time and space to think it through, but it happened anyway. Things like panicked self-defense, or wanting to hurt someone (but not hurt that badly) in the heat of passion but accidentally going too far, or being Grail-bombed to an ambiguous level of free will. Any soldiers who've been on real battlefields for long enough will have the Murderer trait IMO, but I'm not sure victims of full mind control (as in it being clear-cut that they didn't have any ability whatsoever to make their own choices at the time) or people who blow up places they didn't know had people in them count.

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Ok, then since it is likely a magical and lore relevant thing, this makes it somewhat difficult to understand the criteria for the trait murderer to occur especially in the world of friendship is magic. One example of this is starlight glimmer who if I remembered correctly quite literally caused the apocalypse's to occur on the planet numerous times by her interference with time travel which undoubtedly killed several people as a result of her actions leading to her having the trait of murderer. In which when the consequences of her actions were undone again through time travel resulting in no-one actually dying would she still have the trait of murderer? Which is further complicated as you mentioned by how much does intent and consequences may matter for getting it. Does intention of the individual matter more? Can the consequences of your actions make you a murderer even if it was not your intent? Legally it would be more clear but when it comes to metaphysical traits like these it becomes far more complex.

 

[Glau]

...so just like reality?

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Worse than reality. Mansus is significantly nastier than the reality ponies live in, to the point that it's almost a sure thing that bringing lores into the real world make the real world worse than it was.

Like, maybe Mansus was an accurate reflection centuries ago when life was much worse, but it's stuck there and so can only drag existing reality down.

... By doing a lot of things, getting out of the cult, its a eldrich cult it by definition twists you, gaining more power to ensure the safety of her family and friends, getting rid of the afraid traiths and then pick up the pieces when we are out of the deep, deep end we find ourselves into.

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Getting out of the cult, yes.

Getting more power is going to make the problem worse, not better.

Getting rid of afraid is maybe a wash, but is probably going to put us in a lot more situations where the easy answer is murder.

So, I'm in agreement with about 1/3.

As for it being a death trap though I'm not sure what you're expecting there.

If its a reflection of reality its far from 1:1 and it deals with a lot more metaphorical things than literal ones.

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It's more dangerous then reality in every place we've seen, though the danger varies. We have not seen ANY places or people that I would say are better than reality to balance it out.

Given this, it seems like the best end-game would be severing Mansus from reality as much as possible.

The very thing that was done that we are undoing now, btw.

 

[Shaper47]

The idea that being powerless is fundamentally the best course of actions seems rather naive to me.

Higher powers (i.e. the QM) have said aiming for the top of the Manus is the best course of action for us to do now.

 

[Byzantine]

Given this, it seems like the best end-game would be severing Mansus from reality as much as possible.

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Or reshaping the Mansus to be less cruel. If we are the first to Glory we will have that power.

 

[Glau]

The idea that being powerless is fundamentally the best course of actions seems rather naive to me.

Higher powers (i.e. the QM) have said aiming for the top of the Manus is the best course of action for us to do now.

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It is, of course, best for US. We will burn the world down to survive, naturally.

The issue you are dodging, of course, is that more power for one pony makes everyone ELSE worse off.

Edit: And so I am strongly against teaching lores to anyone who doesn't need then to survive. Things are bad enough with just Velvet mucking around at the higher levels- getting a whole crew of power-hungry, paranoid backstabbers (as the master wants, seemingly out of nostalgia) up in there is going to go very poorly for all of us.

 

[Alchemist767676]

I've said this before, but taking feel good options and trying to "preserve Velvet's goodness" is what got Twilight kidnapped and tortured. If we have to flense some of that goodness away to gain the power to protect those we love, then that is worthy sacrifice if it prevents us from seeing another friend or family member get stuck in a jar.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

It's more dangerous then reality in every place we've seen, though the danger varies. We have not seen ANY places or people that I would say are better than reality to balance it out.

Given this, it seems like the best end-game would be severing Mansus from reality as much as possible.

The very thing that was done that we are undoing now, btw

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No I mean why would it be as dangerous as reality is? Or rather why would the dangers be similar to real ones. We can't enter the land of the dead while you're alive and the difference in the danger of navigation isn't too different from having to obey rules to not die in places in reality. Don't dip your toes in the lava if you're in a volcano for example.

The difference is we're not dealing with volcanos we're at best dealing with fairly abstract parallels so the obvious answer isn't always obvious.

It's also noticeable that we in quest or in game haven't ever gotten to see the mansus in a state of peace. In quest obviously something happened, that's left it in a state of ruin, and in game you experience the mansus in the aftermath of the Intercalcate and the second worm war, both of which kinda fucked things up a lot.

Otherwise, given that the Mansus seems to be linked to the dominant species (ponys) to a large degree I'm not sure that's a great idea.

Even broken and fucked up as it is we can still see the impact it can have on them, for good and ill. Sure you may not have liked how the door created the effect it did, but I fear its probably a fairly accurate representation of a fair amount of history translated into a form that does make a degree of sense.

The issue you are dodging, of course, is that more power for one pony makes everyone ELSE worse off.

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In that case Celestia really has to go

More power for one person depends on how that power comes about, for sure it can come at the expense of others in a one way relationship, but it also doesn't have to be.

If reaching the Glory allows us to enact a change then like a moth I say into the flame we fly.

I've said this before, but taking feel good options and trying to "preserve Velvet's goodness" is what got Twilight kidnapped and tortured. If we have to flense some of that goodness away to gain the power to protect those we love, then that is worthy sacrifice if it prevents us from seeing another friend or family member get stuck in a jar.

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mmm, there's certainly a balance to be made here I think, since those feel good options are also good options. Sometimes they're appropriate and other times they might be appropriate it depends on where the dice tumble ultimately.

Thought needs to be put into them.

 

[Alchemist767676]

It is, of course, best for US. We will burn the world down to survive, naturally.

The issue you are dodging, of course, is that more power for one pony makes everyone ELSE worse off.

Edit: And so I am strongly against teaching lores to anyone who doesn't need then to survive. Things are bad enough with just Velvet mucking around at the higher levels- getting a whole crew of power-hungry, paranoid backstabbers (as the master wants, seemingly out of nostalgia) up in there is going to go very poorly for all of us.

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And the issue you're dodging is that there are already other ponies who don't have our best interests in mind also climbing the mansus and seeking power. All avoiding gaining more power does is prevent us from being a player and leave us vulnerable to those who don't have such hang ups.

 

[Glau]

And the issue you're dodging is that there are already other ponies who don't have our best interests in mind also climbing the mansus and seeking power. All avoiding gaining more power does is prevent us from being a player and leave us vulnerable to those who don't have such hang ups.

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There is also the option of knocking off anyone else climbing before they can do things like summon windigos or killing people half a world away in their sleep.

Fewer clumsy would-be gods wrecking the world everyone else lives in sounds both like the standard Cultist Simulator world and a distinct step backwards for MLP world.

Again, my point is that the fewer people climb and the less they act to change things the better everyone else seems to be.

The threat of the worms is, of course, how everyone doing the climb convinces themselves that they are justified despite this.

Gaining more power does protect us. But we've already loosed two wolves into this world in the course of that, as the flip side of the same coin.

So the real question is: what is going on with the worms? How are they locked out of this world? Are we reinforcing that lock or chipping away at it? Is there a deadline when they will break in, or is there just a fear that such a thing exists? Why haven't the worms already eaten the world while Luna was their prisoner?

None of those answers are in Mansus, as far as I can tell. It feels like more power might just be a red herring- taking us into a game where we are a player against/with the other entities in Mansus, but irrelevant to the dangers to the world.

 

[Shaper47]

The issue you are dodging, of course, is that more power for one pony makes everyone ELSE worse off.

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We already decided not to murder Luna and I don't think Velvet would ever kill her own daughter like your supporting.

 

[Alchemist767676]

None of those answers are in Mansus, as far as I can tell. It feels like more power might just be a red herring- taking us into a game where we are a player against/with the other entities in Mansus, but irrelevant to the dangers to the world.

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Ah, so this is more of "ignore word of Bird that we should be climbing the Mansus because it makes me feel good" type of thing.

 

[Ericwinter]

Personally I agree that the Mansus has a tendency—a tendency, not necessarily an inherent nature—to make things worse. Power corrupts, and all that. I also, however, find it strange to decry an entire half of the setting as a red herring and try to limit it as much as possible.

I will remind the thread that we still have absolutely no clue what Harmony is or where it comes from, and that keeping a lid on the Lores is already out of our hands.

 

[Glau]

We already decided not to murder Luna and I don't think Velvet would ever kill her own daughter like your supporting.

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That's a hell of a thing to accuse someone of by putting words in their mouth.

Sit down.

Ah, so this is more of "ignore word of Bird that we should be climbing the Mansus because it makes me feel good" type of thing.

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I think you need to consider what your endgame is. If you want the world to be a better place for our victory, were need to set the foundations for that now. This means making sure that knowledge of Mansus and the lores is as restricted as possible, to me.

Otherwise, if you don't care, the mother of wolves end is easy to get.

 

[Dheer]

Getting out of the cult, yes.

Getting more power is going to make the problem worse, not better.

Getting rid of afraid is maybe a wash, but is probably going to put us in a lot more situations where the easy answer is murder.

So, I'm in agreement with about 1/3.

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Precisely how is avoiding getting more power going to make things better in the short and long run?

How is avoiding removing the afraid trait for Velvet going to make things better in the current and future situations?

Please explain your logic for this

 

[Ericwinter]

You know, there's a much, much more important question than all of this debate about the worth of the Mansus and whatnot. Put simply…

What are we going to name DoA?

 

[Doomed Wombat]

@Glau i fear your position is rather contradictory as I understand it.

If you want to stop people climbing the Mansus you can't do it blind and people seemingly are going to be slipping in regardless, one our best friends did just that.

Do you want the ability to spy on everyone in case they start to ascend the mansus? Establish some kind of tyrannical system to enforce it in reality?

Furthermore that simply establishes a holding pattern, one that cannot last for eternity.

Something I feel has to change on the Mansus's side that's for certain and seemingly the main place that can affect that change is the Glory. What that change maybe depends, for all we know your goal (seperating mansus from reality) can be accomplished up there, or reformating the Mansus into something less alien or hostile. Whatever it is we can't do it down here.

From the game perspective there is generally a path without blood if you're able to find it, I'm quite proud of the fact I managed to beat an entire game without murdering or sacrificing anyone. Just spending a shit ton of money.

None of those answers are in Mansus, as far as I can tell. It feels like more power might just be a red herring- taking us into a game where we are a player against/with the other entities in Mansus, but irrelevant to the dangers to the world.

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This feels a bit disingenuous to the QM. Generally speaking we have to trust they're telling the truth and we've seen that the powers of the Mansus are not a red herring for better or worse.

 

[Dheer]

You know, there's a much, much more important question than all of this debate about the worth of the Mansus and whatnot. Put simply…

What are we going to name DoA?

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That is a good question, think we will decide once we actually meet her. There is also the question I have on my mind. Is she just a name of the Horned Axes or do you think she is the literal daughter of the Hour along with being a name?

 

[Ericwinter]

That is a good question, think we will decide once we actually meet her. There is also the question I have on my mind. Is she just a name of the Horned Axes or do you think she is the literal daughter of the Hour along with being a name?

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Some Names are direct creations of their Hour, or even just lesser emanations of them, so it's very possible. However, if she's the true daughter of anyone it would probably be the Mother of Ants, not the Axe. She originally served another Hour, after all, and the whole serpent thing is definitely MoA's domain. The Axe, if anything, just adopted her

On a mostly seperate note, there's actually something I'm kinda curious about. Where in the fuck did we find a literal axe for the ritual? I doubt those are super common…