Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Dear reader! Whether you are new here, archive-reading and whatnot, or you are already someone who has been with us for quite a while, I would like to say a few words that I believe are best kept close to mind.

-This is an MLP quest. And more importantly, none of us are gratuitously cruel. So good things will happen on this quest, and I hope that enough good things have already happened to prove that.
-This is also a horror quest, so bad things will happen. Bad things might happen to good characters if you are not able to protect them, and you most certainly will not be able to intervene if you lack the tools to do so.
-And finally, this is a quest in which you jostle with powers greater than yourself, with all that it entails.

Please, do keep those things in mind as you go forward. But ultimately, this is also a quest in which it is hoped we all have fun! So if any of the above points is not exactly your cup of tea, or somehow make the experience as a whole "not worth it", then this quest might not be for you. Which is fine! Individual tastes are a thing, so don't think any more about it if you don't want to read anymore. And regardless, I hope you have a lovely day!

PSA for whoever needs to hear it:

Readers should take their own mental health into consideration when voting and not subject themselves to triggering narrative elements like rape or constant mental torture of a friend just for the Greatest Good of a world that doesn't exist.

If those are fine for you or Regrettable is even more triggering, then GREAT! More power to you. But you aren't a bad or selfish person for picking the option that keeps the characters you've emotionally connected with safe. [REDACTED for spoiler warning]

This is a high intensity quest that doesn't hold back when it comes to horror and negative consequences. Take care of yourself.
(Quote slightly edited to avoid spoilers)
 
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And one last reminder that the vote will be counted from the "Voting restarted" threadmark. So even if the auto-tally looks strange, look to that.

With fifty minutes to go, our current (and possibly final) tally is:

Adhoc vote count started by BirdBodhisattva on Jan 25, 2024 at 5:11 PM, finished with 1383 posts and 152 votes.


See you all soon! And maybe go take a rest. You deserve it!
 
Other way around, the Dreamlands are not apart of the Mansus, they never have been. It used to be that the Woods covered the Dreamlands, it no longer doing so is why the Worms are infesting the Dreamlands as they can see the dreamers. And your thinking to logically, the path forged to Harmony could be build sideways, or from above the manuses, as viewed from the mansus proper. It very much does not have to make logical since to exist alongside the mansus yet be fully separate.
The Mansus appears to be a piramid, but the way it was described from the top, or - more relevantly - from a more knowledgable position of late game Velelvet, as well as BirdBodhisattva somewhere in the comment way back, the Mansus is described differently:
The Mansus feels like… a sphere, or maybe a cylinder, or perhaps an endless sea of concentric rings. Or maybe…
Still, as your hoof steps on the firm Mansus stone, you understand that… that Glory is the center.
Maybe the Mansus, or perhaps the entire world, is an inverted sphere. And if that is the case, then Glory is at its very center.

Maybe all of reality is a cylinder. Layered in levels, with the Mansus being the innermost and Wake the outermost. And everything spins around the axis that is Glory.
Because here, you finally understand. You finally understand that to go up is to go towards Glory. To go down is to move away from it. And that which Glory's light cannot reach is nothing. The places where Glory does not shine is Nowhere.
I do not believe it is possible to approach the Glory sideways from the Mansus, not anymore than it is possible to approach the center of a sphere by moving just tangentially; and it makes no more sense to approach the Glory from the above than it makes sense to reach a sphere's center by moving outwards.

You can be above the Mansus, even closer to Glory than the Three-Valved Door is, but that is not really "separate".

It doesn't necessarily means that everything has to intersect the Mansus, but the Dreamlands were pretty consistently "away" from the Glory and its light.

I can believe that maybe, Harmony is kin to Glory. After all, from the description of the zeroth level of Knock, the most fundamental, the most basic of its lesson is that the Mansus is a different World you travel in your dreams:
-Level 0: You understand that there are other Worlds, and secret paths between them. But the only one you know is the World in your dream, the Mansus, and perhaps that is the only World that matters. (Allows access to the Mansus)
So, could it be that like the Glory is the shining core of the World called Mansus, Harmony is the shining core of World ponies call "Equestria"? Lesser, not nearly as luminescent, perhaps even subservient, but kin, the native power of the living world?

Although, by all indications, while the Harmony can be "native", the ponies are not if such distinction between the Mansus and "Equestria" makes sense. We know that before horn, wing or might, they all once originated in the Blank Plains, in the Mansus.

Perhaps, when we say that "the Wake" is "Equestria", we are even making a mistake. Perhaps, "Equestria" is not the only World that the Mansus have caught in its Wake? After all, we do know that the Daughter of Axes, if only she could unchain herself, would have spoken so:
[ ] She spoke about this world, Equestria, and the many other worlds that ponykind knows to exist, and the secret passages that connect them. Figuratively, when referring to other countries, and literally, speaking about far away realms that most ponies believe to be only fairy tales. (KNOCK is the principle of openings, and of finding hidden passages and portals. It entails secrets that both locksmiths and burglars share, even if they do not realize it.)
"Far away realms" do not speak of me as some realm on the other side of the darkness of the night skies. If it were so, the ponies would not have heard of them, and even fairy tales of those Worlds would not have existed.

It is a far stretch, I don't really believe in this "kinship", but it is an entirely valid view of the lore given. Like, maybe it's an early installment weirdness, there's a question of how literally we should read lore written in the very first days of the quest, but it is not opposed by anything.

Returning to Harmony, I do not believe equating it to Glory makes sense. Technically, it is possible: all of that were biased perspectives of in universe characters, except maybe Knock 0 description. Mistakes are not impossible.

...But they do not make sense to me. Not in this number, not in such severity.
 
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I do not believe it is possible to approach the Glory sideways from the Mansus, not anymore than it is possible to approach the center of a sphere by moving just tangentially; and it makes no more sense to approach the Glory from the above than it makes sense to reach a sphere's center by moving outwards.

You can be above the Mansus, even closer to Glory than the Three-Valved Door is, but that is not really "separate".

It doesn't necessarily means that everything has to intersect the Mansus, but the Dreamlands were pretty consistently "away" from the Glory and its light.

I can believe that maybe, Harmony is kin to Glory. After all, from the description of the zeroth level of Knock, the most fundamental, the most basic of its lesson is that the Mansus is a different World you travel in your dreams:
And what about upside inwards, and sideways up. Your talking about logic in a place that explicitly does not conform to logic. It is completely possible for absents its guardians the Hours, someone could forge a new path to the glory with their own ideas and methods separate from the existing Mansus. To get around the current major road block to the Glory. The only real problem is the person that made up the new path would have to be both very skilled in the lores, and be willing to setup a path to the Glory they themselves could not walk by definition.
 
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In the first two situations you are the reason the person dies. In the third, you are not, you are just a factor making it more likely, but not actually determining or even heavily influencing any given outcome.

Direct consequences are easy to see and assign responsibility for. Indirect consequences require analysis and data gathering to even tell there is something different afterwards.

Thus, the ethical difference between them.
Interesting framework.
Sounds a bit like "Its not unethical if you don't get caught".

7. Something that fucks up lust, resulting in more people being sexually assulted (cause irony over doing this so he doesn't get raped).
Wolf, thy name is Mania. (alternative name: Frenzy)
Randomly possesses loving ponies and forces them to act wolf-ish to their nearest loved ones.

The son mimicking what the master did, just wolf-y instead of moth-y.
 
You know. For all the Master's issues, reading one of the final lines of the update does make me wonder what could have been had she waited a single turn.

"Give me the Name, little Velvet, and we will further our goals in protecting this world. We will finally have an alicorn on our side. We will have me. Give me the Name… and you will be rewarded."
If she had waited that single turn. Then the desire to have an allicorn on the side of the cult (in the general sense atleast, not on the side of the Master specifically) would have been fulfilled without putting Velvet in a Do or Die position. Instead she turned the whole issue into what is basically a test on whether the playerbase trusts the Master not to be horrible as an alicorn, or at the very least not possibly be worse than an RA.
 
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Wolf, thy name is Irony:
Honey, did you do the dishes? Quiet, I'm busy. Please, that excuse again? When did you become such a nag? How dare you take that tone with me!? What happened to the handsome stallion I married? He died when you and your vulture parents killed him. It's always like this! Why can't you be more understanding like... like Shining Armor? Because I'm married to a shrew instead of a princess!

Divorce Rates spike across the country as everyone unfavorably compares their family to the royal couple. Unrealistic expectations of romance explode globally. Somebody invents tinder.
 
And what about upside inwards, and sideways up. Your talking about logic in a place that explicitly does not conform to logic. It is completely possible for absents its guardians the Hours, someone could forge a new path to the glory with their own ideas and methods separate from the existing Mansus. The only real problem is the person that made up the new path would have to be both very skilled in the lores, and be willing to setup a path to the Glory they themselves could not walk by definition.
Which is what my "it doesn't have to intersect" bit was about. Sure, maybe it is possible.

It's just, "up" is definined to be "towards the Glory". It's necessary means that how "up" looks like differs, and does not have to obey the logic, but it still means that approaching Glory means you are moving up; it means to you, if you are an Adept, to approach is to climb.

Could it be possible that Velvet would miss that she is "climbing", that she is moving up and towards the Glory? Maybe, she was still weak back then. Yet, we've seen that she could shape the dreamlands into more familiar and useful perception, and she is familiar with the way the Mansus is perceived, yet she did not notice "a climb".

Strictly speaking, it is "just" absence of evidence, not the evidence of absense of connection, but given that we have absolutely zero evidence for such a theory, I can not take it seriously.
 
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If she had waited that single turn. Then the desire to have an allicorn on the side of the cult (in the general sense atleast, not on the side of the Master specifically) would have been fulfilled without putting Velvet in a Do or Die position. Instead she turned the whole issue in what is basically a test on whether the playerbase trusts the Master not to be horrible as an alicorn, or at the very least not possibly be worse than an RA.
The cost of lying to the Master about Luna.

Everyone works with incomplete information. Ourselves. The Master. Copper. Windy Flakes.

Comet Feet. Celestia. Luna will even after this.
 
Alternatively this is all Stormchaser's fault for not waking Selene last turn. :V
Costs / Benefits

On the other hand... would we have really told Luna to go work with the Master? Or reveal herself to the world? First turn after she comes back?

Would that be wise?

Would the Master have believed that? Would it have changed their plans?

Another broken dream.
 
Wolf, thy name is Irony:
Honey, did you do the dishes? Quiet, I'm busy. Please, that excuse again? When did you become such a nag? How dare you take that tone with me!? What happened to the handsome stallion I married? He died when you and your vulture parents killed him. It's always like this! Why can't you be more understanding like... like Shining Armor? Because I'm married to a shrew instead of a princess!

Divorce Rates spike across the country as everyone unfavorably compares their family to the royal couple. Unrealistic expectations of romance explode globally. Somebody invents tinder.

All that fighting and divorce shit? Completely natural.

The Tinder bit's the actual wolf-child.
 
I am aware that it's very close to the end of voting, which is why I'm not voting for an action myself. I just wanted to say my piece in what is hopefully a calm and constructive manner.

I tend to dip in and out to catch up with outgoing things like quests, so I only caught up since the wedding plan vote at 5am last night. It's now 10pm, and it's taken me this long to get my thoughts and words in order.

I am not bothered by the Master's reveal. We all knew that they would show up eventually, and as a creature of Moth this sadly makes perfect sense. And I'm not bothered by not having any "good" choices, nor do I agree with the idea that Bird is "punishing" us. The Master is far more powerful than us and we are completely on the back foot here. And ultimately, this is a horror quest. There will be bad options.

What does bother me is that at least one of those options explicitly involves letting the Master rape someone. Possibly two of them, depending on how you interpret "living a marital life".

-The Master, using Shining's body, will proceed to marry Cadance. And have a marital life with her.
-The Master will use Shining's body to rape Cadance (albeit unknowingly to her)

Now I am fully aware that this quest has a warning at the top mentioning sexual assault content warnings. I read that after the hiatus, I accepted it just fine. But there's a very big difference between Grail making consent an iffy topic and outright stating "this will lead to someone being raped", even if they don't know it's happening to them.

I remember how horrified Bird was that people had assumed that the infamous Rarity vote would lead to us raping her. I remember being infuriated on Bird's behalf over the whole thing, because while I could see why people had been worried it all seemed like a massive misunderstanding to me. Because why would Bird write something like that? But now that thing that caused so much horror in our QM is actively being written into the story, with the major difference seeming to boil down to "we're not the one doing the act itself".

Bird, if you're reading this, I hope that it doesn't come across as an attack on your character, because it's not meant to be. My only hope is that you look at where you stood back then, and what you're writing now, and understand my concern over the change. Especially since while it may not have come to mind while writing, I can spot a way to write around the rape presented in the Accept option very easily: the ritual is cast as something that doesn't involve Cadance, and once it is cast the Master goes dormant inside Shining. Shining and Cadance carry on their lives and then the Master is born after the natural result of their honeymoon. It feels unnecessary to add the extra horrific angle of sexual assault.

Because rape is something very different to any other kind of horror. Changelings and Wolves and Cults are not real. They don't have that real life history and trauma packaged with them. There are plenty of people who could explain with far better words than me exactly why it's such a hard line to cross, but unfortunately I can only type what comes to mind and hope that it gets my point across.

All this being said, the nature of this vote has made me incredibly uncomfortable and concerned as to where the writing is going. So I'm going to be stepping away from this quest. I really hope that I'm wrong, that this is just a case of an unfortunate writing choice. Because that's the important thing here. Whether or not I show up every couple of months to weigh in on a vote doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not anyone learns from this. So please, take a good look at what's happening here and what this could mean for the future of this thread.

I've been writing for 45 minutes now and I have no idea how much of this is just incoherent rambling, so I'm going to go now. Please, be kind to each other. Listen to each other. And thank you. This quest really has been a joy to follow.
 
In the end it. It seems like callous indifference in pursuit of his goals really did end up getting the Master killed.
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by BirdBodhisattva on Jan 22, 2024 at 6:35 PM, finished with 1404 posts and 155 votes.
 
Happy vote closed everyone.
I am aware that it's very close to the end of voting, which is why I'm not voting for an action myself. I just wanted to say my piece in what is hopefully a calm and constructive manner.

I tend to dip in and out to catch up with outgoing things like quests, so I only caught up since the wedding plan vote at 5am last night. It's now 10pm, and it's taken me this long to get my thoughts and words in order.

I am not bothered by the Master's reveal. We all knew that they would show up eventually, and as a creature of Moth this sadly makes perfect sense. And I'm not bothered by not having any "good" choices, nor do I agree with the idea that Bird is "punishing" us. The Master is far more powerful than us and we are completely on the back foot here. And ultimately, this is a horror quest. There will be bad options.

What does bother me is that at least one of those options explicitly involves letting the Master rape someone. Possibly two of them, depending on how you interpret "living a marital life".




Now I am fully aware that this quest has a warning at the top mentioning sexual assault content warnings. I read that after the hiatus, I accepted it just fine. But there's a very big difference between Grail making consent an iffy topic and outright stating "this will lead to someone being raped", even if they don't know it's happening to them.

I remember how horrified Bird was that people had assumed that the infamous Rarity vote would lead to us raping her. I remember being infuriated on Bird's behalf over the whole thing, because while I could see why people had been worried it all seemed like a massive misunderstanding to me. Because why would Bird write something like that? But now that thing that caused so much horror in our QM is actively being written into the story, with the major difference seeming to boil down to "we're not the one doing the act itself".

Bird, if you're reading this, I hope that it doesn't come across as an attack on your character, because it's not meant to be. My only hope is that you look at where you stood back then, and what you're writing now, and understand my concern over the change. Especially since while it may not have come to mind while writing, I can spot a way to write around the rape presented in the Accept option very easily: the ritual is cast as something that doesn't involve Cadance, and once it is cast the Master goes dormant inside Shining. Shining and Cadance carry on their lives and then the Master is born after the natural result of their honeymoon. It feels unnecessary to add the extra horrific angle of sexual assault.

Because rape is something very different to any other kind of horror. Changelings and Wolves and Cults are not real. They don't have that real life history and trauma packaged with them. There are plenty of people who could explain with far better words than me exactly why it's such a hard line to cross, but unfortunately I can only type what comes to mind and hope that it gets my point across.

All this being said, the nature of this vote has made me incredibly uncomfortable and concerned as to where the writing is going. So I'm going to be stepping away from this quest. I really hope that I'm wrong, that this is just a case of an unfortunate writing choice. Because that's the important thing here. Whether or not I show up every couple of months to weigh in on a vote doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not anyone learns from this. So please, take a good look at what's happening here and what this could mean for the future of this thread.

I've been writing for 45 minutes now and I have no idea how much of this is just incoherent rambling, so I'm going to go now. Please, be kind to each other. Listen to each other. And thank you. This quest really has been a joy to follow.
And yet it almost won.

In the end it. It seems like callous indifference in pursuit of his goals really did end up getting the Master killed.
Yeah.

It really was wasnt it?
 
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