Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[BirdBodhisattva]

Dear reader! Whether you are new here, archive-reading and whatnot, or you are already someone who has been with us for quite a while, I would like to say a few words that I believe are best kept close to mind.

-This is an MLP quest. And more importantly, none of us are gratuitously cruel. So good things will happen on this quest, and I hope that enough good things have already happened to prove that.
-This is also a horror quest, so bad things will happen. Bad things might happen to good characters if you are not able to protect them, and you most certainly will not be able to intervene if you lack the tools to do so.
-And finally, this is a quest in which you jostle with powers greater than yourself, with all that it entails.

Please, do keep those things in mind as you go forward. But ultimately, this is also a quest in which it is hoped we all have fun! So if any of the above points is not exactly your cup of tea, or somehow make the experience as a whole "not worth it", then this quest might not be for you. Which is fine! Individual tastes are a thing, so don't think any more about it if you don't want to read anymore. And regardless, I hope you have a lovely day!

Spoiler: Or if you'd rather hear it from someone else

PSA for whoever needs to hear it:

Readers should take their own mental health into consideration when voting and not subject themselves to triggering narrative elements like rape or constant mental torture of a friend just for the Greatest Good of a world that doesn't exist.

If those are fine for you or Regrettable is even more triggering, then GREAT! More power to you. But you aren't a bad or selfish person for picking the option that keeps the characters you've emotionally connected with safe. [REDACTED for spoiler warning]

This is a high intensity quest that doesn't hold back when it comes to horror and negative consequences. Take care of yourself.

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(Quote slightly edited to avoid spoilers)

 

[Pempelune]

The changelings' deaths were pretty regrettable. It's just that, well, there was literally no way we could've done anything to help. The only variables left for them were how much more time they spent languishing in the White Room, and who or what ended up killing them.

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That argument holds no water. Not saving someone - particularly when this person is entirely impossible to save - is a very different thing from killing someone. They were gonna die eventually - yeah, everybody will. That's not a license to kill.
This wasn't euthanasia: they never asked for our "mercy". We murdered them, for the sake of a slightly better turn plan, a Winter scrap and the assurance that they wouldn't be used against us in the future. We could have done without, we chose not to. There was no necessity to it, only cold pragmatism.
I'm not saying this was an incorrect choice. It's definitely led to very engaging and beautiful writing. But let's not kid ourselves here. We definitely deserve this Murderer tag, and if there was any justice left in Equestria Velvet would be heading to jail.

 

[Pittauro]

And no, you can reach the glory in cultist simulator, you don't stay there very long and the hours are already there, but to become Long you have to pass the Tricuspid gate, go to the Glory briefly and return immortal.

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not quite. You reach the top of the mansus, "where the glory shines on you directly", but that's not the same as reaching the Glory in the same way as reaching the top of a building is not the same as reaching the sun.

You just remove any wall or ceiling between you and the glory. Or at least that was my reading.

Cool. I'm assuming that the ability to change Mansus when you reach glory is OOC knowledge? Because there's certainly no hints of it in the story.

Or, as far as I understand, in the CS game, where reaching glory wasn't actually a possibility.

So I'm not going to count on the idea that we can change Mansus without constraints to how we want it.

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not really? It's basically IC knowledge

We know that the Glory is a path to Godhood

We know there's no more gods around

The only thing that can oppose a god is another god

So, reaching the Glory means becoming near-omnipotent, except for whatever laws are beyond the power of a supreme Hour to change.


For example, I think we can definitely change the Mansus, but there will probably always HAVE to be at least one path leading up, because that seems to be an inherent property of the Mansus.

We CAN likely change doors and obstacles though, and by being the highest one in the House of the Sun, we can likely change how the lore manifest in the world, just like how (presumably, from what I remember) the Forge lore was once known as the Flint.

so, if we reach the top, I think even making the lores less... eldritchy, more "soft", could be possible.

We have seen that Mansus powers are powers and we need power to survive. Not quite the same thing as 'this is the way to save the world'.

Given that this is a crossover and not just a CS world, it's possible that those answers are all part of the harmony mystery chain, not the Mansus one. And we've done far less on that then on Mansus.

So if you want to base Velvet's in-character actions on entirely OOC information, that's your call.

I disagree with it is all.

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We've been told, Word of God, that we NEED to progress in the Mansus to succeed.

That power is necessary, and without power we can't do anything but lose.

Harmony might help, but Harmony by itself is not enough.



and the next step for harmony would likely be researching the Selene-Knock-2-boon Jade got, anyway. We ARE going to do that... though maybe not immediately.

For example, there's far fewer of them than there should be assuming there's a bunch of dead hours, enough to easily overwhelm reality, seeing as just the Sun in Splendour dying was enough to give them a decisive edge.

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nah, the worms reproduced IN THE BODY of the Sun In Splendour. If the dead hours are not in Nowhere, it shouldn't make a difference to them.


Also it seems like the main defense for Equestria is (beyond the dream doors) that most worms just... didn't notice the light of Harmony thus far.

I completely understand many of the arguments being presented here, and agree with many of them.

I'll just mention that I already gave my own opinion, though.

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thank you.


It gets so tiring when every time something goes bad it's always "mansus evil, do not want to go there, ther's other ways!" when we've been REPEATEDLY told that's the best, and maybe the ONLY, way.

Yeh. Of course you didn't say how we'd reach the top of the house.

Plenty of paths remain unexplored (harmony etc), but I think going up is fairly inevitable, regardless of the means.

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... there's quite literally only one way up

Well, unless you count the Moon, which... I'm not sure if that counts, or what moon-ending would even do.

Bringing back the old hours it's not necessarily a golden ending. I imagine we'd get a similar situation to the ancient past... but what was life like then?

We're probably talking an era BEFORE the unicorns raising the Sun and Moon, but we know very little of how things once were.

I'm not saying this was an incorrect choice. It's definitely led to very engaging and beautiful writing. But let's not kid ourselves here. We definitely deserve this Murderer tag, and if there was any justice left in Equestria Velvet would be heading to jail.

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If there was any justice left in Equestria Velvet wouldn't have been put in this situation.

 

[Greymere]

We definitely deserve this Murderer tag, and if there was any justice left in Equestria Velvet would be heading to jail.

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I don't think Celestia would jail us for killing changelings.

Now all that other stuff we've done or abetted... well. We'd have earned a lifetime in prison even before adding murder to the list.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

not quite. You reach the top of the mansus, "where the glory shines on you directly", but that's not the same as reaching the Glory in the same way as reaching the top of a building is not the same as reaching the sun.

You just remove any wall or ceiling between you and the glory. Or at least that was my reading.

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Eh, I think our readings are similar, sans a few cosmetic details.

so, if we reach the top, I think even making the lores less... eldritchy, more "soft", could be possible.

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Certainly certain hours define their lores.

... there's quite literally only one way up

Well, unless you count the Moon, which... I'm not sure if that counts, or what moon-ending would even do.

Bringing back the old hours it's not necessarily a golden ending. I imagine we'd get a similar situation to the ancient past... but what was life like then?

We're probably talking an era BEFORE the unicorns raising the Sun and Moon, but we know very little of how things once were.

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...I was in fact talking about the moon yes, and also the harmony since to my knowledge we don't know what it might be able to do. I'm not willing to discount that it could provide an alternative path, or it might have nothing to do with it.

I wasn't framing it as a golden ending mate, I just think the idea of the Wheel is neat and that its one of the hours that's got some decentish interactions with people.

I wouldn't want to bring back most of the hours even if the option was open.

Calm down man, I'm all for going up the Mansus but I also want to leave my options open since this is a crossover setting. It doesn't work exactly the same as normal CS.

 

[Pittauro]

...I was in fact talking about the moon yes, and also the harmony since to my knowledge we don't know what it might be able to do. I'm not willing to discount that it could provide an alternative path, or it might have nothing to do with it.

I wasn't framing it as a golden ending mate, I just think the idea of the Wheel is neat and that its one of the hours that's got some decentish interactions with people.

I wouldn't want to bring back most of the hours even if the option was open.

Calm down man, I'm all for going up the Mansus but I also want to leave my options open since this is a crossover setting. It doesn't work exactly the same as normal CS.

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I'm very calm, don't need to go "calm down man" on me

I'm at most a bit annoyed at Glau.

about "not bringing back most hours"... I agree, but I'm not sure we can pick and choose with Moon Ending.

from normal CS and what the master said, the implication seemed to be we'd basically trade the current Mansus for the ancient mansus, with all of its Hours and Names and everything else.

...on that note, it would likely also mean restoring the Tribal Door now that I think about it. Though maybe we'd be deleting/replacing The Wolf Divided, so maybe it could be worth it?

...DoA and Baldomare might get caught up in the change though

 

[Dheer]

I don't think Celestia would jail us for killing changelings.

Now all that other stuff we've done or abetted... well. We'd have earned a lifetime in prison even before adding murder to the list.

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Speaking of prisons, where do you think precisely where would we be jailed at? A normal jail, medium security? Tartarus?

 

[Tomsawyer18]

Speaking of prisons, where do you think precisely where would we be jailed at? A normal jail, medium security? Tartarus?

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Statue in the garden

 

[ElMariachi]

One interesting thing is that until she saw them tied to that circle, Velvet saw the Changelings basically as animals, like one of those savage beasts roaming the Everfree Forest.
I wonder if that didn't played in-universe in Velvet's choice to use them as sacrifice, and that this option would had been blocked (or have some maluses attached to it) had she had the opportunity to know them better?

 

[Greymere]

Speaking of prisons, where do you think precisely where would we be jailed at? A normal jail, medium security? Tartarus?

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Well if we're talking about current Celestia...

A smear of ash on the ground. Maybe a cremation jar if she's feeling generous

 

[Pittauro]

Speaking of prisons, where do you think precisely where would we be jailed at? A normal jail, medium security? Tartarus?

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Statue in the garden

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or ashes in an urn.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I'm very calm, don't need to go "calm down man" on me

I'm at most a bit annoyed at Glau.

about "not bringing back most hours"... I agree, but I'm not sure we can pick and choose with Moon Ending.

from normal CS and what the master said, the implication seemed to be we'd basically trade the current Mansus for the ancient mansus, with all of its Hours and Names and everything else.

...on that note, it would likely also mean restoring the Tribal Door now that I think about it. Though maybe we'd be deleting/replacing The Wolf Divided, so maybe it could be worth it?

...DoA and Baldomare might get caught up in the change though

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Yeah, just making a fair few assumptions of what I mean.

Depends which hours are there and which are not really.

Shrug. Lets find out our options first before making any rash decisions. At the least hours can seemingly make beneficial choices for all like the Colonel and Mother.

 

[Dheer]

Statue in the garden

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or ashes in an urn.

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Unlikely, that was only done to discord because she did not want her eyes of here for even a second. Along with being best contained in places of harmony which is the garden is essentially. As for her essentially killing us, that is a possibility with her becoming daybreaker through this.

Although ironically in the canon timeline it would be extremely hypocritical to punish us so severely unlike the leniency she gave her other student despite causing numerous apocalyptical scenarios to occur beyond that through her time travelling for far worse intentions then ours.

 

[Glau]

If things can't be changed there then they just can't be changed.

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Ok. That is just restating that ooc, we know far in the past it is supposed to have happened in CSworld.

It is possible, as you glossed over, that things simply can't be changed. At least, some or most of them. Assuming otherwise and *using that assumption to justify* the ends permitting the means is the mindset I am objecting too.

We need to deal with the less optimistic possibilities too. We can't rely on wishful thinking, as the changeling hive showed.

I'm not sure why you are calling it OOC information when its a fairly reasonable thing based on what she knows and her current skill set as far as I can tell, but I'm not disregarding the harmony chain at all

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You are though. If harmony is where we get answers to what is going on with the worms, then we aren't going to get those answers from Mansus, no matter how high we climb. We will only get power.

Then Celestia is really screwed as the strongest being around.

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Yep. Have you noticed that A) she's been superhumanly good and kind for 1000 years and *just now* snapped, and B) everything dies if she can't be arsed to move the sun?

There is a reason she is one of the threats we fear.

I can understand trying to restrict its spread but that is a task which is frankly infeasible to do so too any major degrees due to lacking the ability to do so.

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We know personally everyone in the world with a rank 3 or more in any lore, and everyone at 2 is there because they read our book so we know basically who they are too.

This is entirely controllable, for the moment. It won't be again after this turn. It's not like anyone else found the lores in the last thousand years.

harmony has its own agency to chose, give or help. So how do you propose Velvet prevents its spread?

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Harmony isn't corrosive to the world the way Mansus is.

The only way to manage is as Bird stated is to reach the top of the Mansus for it is through there you have the ability to do so completely due to having access to the fundamental foundation and root access to the reality that is the Mansus that can no longer be contested by any hour and any below them.

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Speculation and wishful thinking. Nice that you make the argument, but it's not reliable. And phrasing it as of it is the obvious and well-known truth just casts doubt on all the other hypotheses you've phrased as assertions.

We know that the Glory is a path to Godhood

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How do we know this. We know that gods are associated with higher levels of Mansus in character. Anything past that?

Citation needed.

We've been told, Word of God, that we NEED to progress in the Mansus to succeed.

That power is necessary, and without power we can't do anything but lose.

Harmony might help, but Harmony by itself is not enough.

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Sure. We, at the point that the question was asked, needed power to survive and do anything else.

This doesn't mean that gaining power is enough, or even that it is the right path. It just means we would have lost if we hadn't done it.

And now we have a lot more power, and are no closer to understanding any of the current mysteries.




So, once again, my point is that having more ponies with powerful lores makes the world worse. We need power to win, and we need to win as this is a game, but we DON'T need to teach randos how to kill people by opening their chests with knock, or to put more people in a place to be tempted by the wolf divided.

So: minimize harm and keep secret shit secret.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Ok. That is just restating that ooc, we know far in the past it is supposed to have happened in CSworld.

It is possible, as you glossed over, that things simply can't be changed. At least, some or most of them. Assuming otherwise and *using that assumption to justify* the ends permitting the means is the mindset I am objecting too.

We need to deal with the less optimistic possibilities too. We can't rely on wishful thinking, as the changeling hive showed.

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Its not justifying anything OOC, she's no reason to think things can't be changed.

Yes? That's why I'm allowing for all possibilities not just dismissing them all in favour of my preferences.

Yep. Have you noticed that A) she's been superhumanly good and kind for 1000 years and *just now* snapped, and B) everything dies if she can't be arsed to move the sun?

There is a reason she is one of the threats we fear.

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And my point was that she's not made everyone lesser by being really powerful, (well except now, but I don't really care about them nobles.)

We know personally everyone in the world with a rank 3 or more in any lore, and everyone at 2 is there because they read our book so we know basically who they are too.

This is entirely controllable, for the moment. It won't be again after this turn. It's not like anyone else found the lores in the last thousand years.

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To our knowledge, which is incomplete. What's more now that it is out I am not willing to assume the dam hasn't broken to use a metaphor and people won't start finding themselves there randomly.

Harmony isn't corrosive to the world the way Mansus is.

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Based on? You've very strong assertions that "this is how it is" but unfortunately we've not done much looking into the Harmony. It might be as nice as you want it to be, but given how much of a crapsacharine world its created (if I recall correctly) for everyone outside of Equestria I'm not willing to assume its the superior option.

So, once again, my point is that having more ponies with powerful lores makes the world worse. We need power to win, and we need to win as this is a game, but we DON'T need to teach randos how to kill people by opening their chests with knock, or to put more people in a place to be tempted by the wolf divided.

So: minimize harm and keep secret shit secret.

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I don't think anyone was arguing we should be spreading it about willy nilly, just arguing that we should keep climbing the Mansus.

Although I will note that so far nothing, but the lores have proven to be effective at blocking them. So hypothetically we found out the Master intended to do a repeat of the ritual that drove Luna nuts, just this time targetted at Celestia to take advantage of her fragile mental state. Would you be OK with teaching her stuff to defend herself, since even if we inform her of the mental threat presently we seem to plum down not know if she can resist it. She didn't even seem to recognise if Luna was being assaulted by an outside influence.

Anyway I have a big problem with this

Speculation and wishful thinking. Nice that you make the argument, but it's not reliable. And phrasing it as of it is the obvious and well-known truth just casts doubt on all the other hypotheses you've phrased as assertions.

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How do we know this. We know that gods are associated with higher levels of Mansus in character. Anything past that?

Citation needed.

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Sure. We, at the point that the question was asked, needed power to survive and do anything else.

This doesn't mean that gaining power is enough, or even that it is the right path. It just means we would have lost if we hadn't done it.

And now we have a lot more power, and are no closer to understanding any of the current mysteries.

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Both the tone and the implications behind it.

Firstly its kinda rude, if people are speculating that is their right, and secondly its a hypothetical which based on what we know IC and OOC is just as valid as many other conclusions at the moment.

As for the next one, we don't have to know every single detail IC she is capable of extrapolation and if we're making one that is completely unreasonable the GM can tell us.

By all means say when you think its unreasonable, but making the inference that Hours have associations with the Glory* based on their power and their position high in the Mansus a space which the Glory is a focal point is not unreasonable.

Spoiler: Hours thing

*Its wrong anyway by my understanding. Some hours have a specific connection to the Glory, the two most powerful of them even came from it directly, but the origins of hours are fairly numerous.

The Hours Velvet currently knows best are the Wolf, Moth and Door in Eye all of which have fairly strong connections to the Glory however (the wolf is a god from light and blood descended from the Sun, the Moth's obsession is the Glory since its the BIIIIGEST lightbulb and the Door in Eye is complicated, but also has very strong connections to it.

Finally the GM still stands by their assertion and I find how you put all of that rather disingenious. Its essentially going "well we needed to do this, which I think is bad even though it would have been game over, so I'm going to blame it for our inability to take actions that would have lost us the game had we done so."

I'm sure that's not the intent, but its how it comes across to me, since AFAICT we've not had time to do much else for a while, whether we've grown stronger or no.

Anyway, if nothing else please give us a chance to show what we can do while working for the nominal good guys instead of the explicitly evil bad guy. I think you will find that what we are able to do will be expanded significantly in the ethics department and what we are not allowed to do also expanded in that department.

 

[Glau]

And my point was that she's not made everyone lesser by being really powerful, (well except now, but I don't really care about them nobles.)

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I disagree that the existence of an immortal godqueen that personally runs a lot of the country's affairs does not make everyone else lesser. Ymmv.

Firstly its kinda rude, if people are speculating that is their right,

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It is rude, you are right. The vote was to murder people and I am expressing bitterness and doubt in the underpinning assumptions of the current course.

As for the next one, we don't have to know every single detail IC she is capable of extrapolation and if we're making one that is completely unreasonable the GM can tell us.

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If you want to play this like the separation between what Velvet knows and what you know is irrelevant, I can't stop you.

I think it's poor form though.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I disagree that the existence of an immortal godqueen that personally runs a lot of the country's affairs does not make everyone else lesser. Ymmv.



It is rude, you are right. The vote was to murder people and I am expressing bitterness and doubt in the underpinning assumptions of the current course.



If you want to play this like the separation between what Velvet knows and what you know is irrelevant, I can't stop you.

I think it's poor form though.

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In the sense that everyone is lesser than her? Sure, she's a head of state, but that'd be the same if she couldn't fire laser beams from her backside.

Doubt sure I do that all the time, rudeness and bitterness please take that else where. Walk away from the thread for a time if you feel you need it, but being an arse to everyone else is probably not going to make you feel any better about it and just creates more negative memories to associate with the thread.

And if you want to play it as if it is absolute then I'm not sure how we are meant to play. The only person who can truly say what is IC for her is her writer so I am doing my best to make reasonable extrapolations based on what I know she knows.

If @BirdBodhisattva says "no that's unreasonable" then I know that now and will stop persuing that line of reasoning and if you think that is poor form I don't know what you consider "good" form aside from whatever agrees with your opinion.

 

[ALostMortal]

If you want to play this like the separation between what Velvet knows and what you know is irrelevant, I can't stop you.

I think it's poor form though.

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You are taking this way too seriously, it's just a game and if people want to make use of WOG statements to inform their decision making i don't think that's wrong.

If Bird didn't want WOG statements to have an affect on our decision making they won't say anything so saying it's 'poor form' to use all of the information available to us is pretty judgy of you.

 

[Indivisible]

Anyway, now that we've reached Winter 4 we can speculate on what Velvet's Winter Sacrament would be.

We know that we gain Lore abilities at Lore 3, 5, and 7.

Her Moth ability is being able to see in the dark and her sacrament ties into how she hates herself. It seems like it would let her become a different person with its references to masks. The Master's sacrament might give her the ability to turn into a sneaky shadow form at will.

Her Knock ability lets her accomplish more with each Mansus action and ignore mundane locks. The sacrament seems to be tied to how Jade first entered the mansus. Maybe it would her let it enter it physically? A new method of travel?

Her SH ability lets her see (and only see) places that she could have been, but wasn't, and improve her book searching. Her sacrament involved honing this ability further, and Baldomare's involved going somewhere Else.

Her Winter ability lets her ignore physical discomfort and the cold, as well as summon Risen. Perhaps her sacrament will let her ignore Mental stuff as well? I know it does that narratively though, as well as resisting things that would hurt your mind...

 

[StormySky]

Especially with the way she calls on Winter to calm herself in stressful situations, with the added caveat of sometimes going too far and forgetting you're supposed to be freaked out about certain things.

 

[Greymere]

Her Winter ability lets her ignore physical discomfort and the cold, as well as summon Risen. Perhaps her sacrament will let her ignore Mental stuff as well? I know it does that narratively though, as well as resisting things that would hurt your mind...

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Maybe more on the necromancy side of things? Talking to the dead? Taking a page from the Ghoul and being able to absorb memories from corpses? Some kind of anti-dying power?

 

[Ericwinter]

Her Knock ability lets her accomplish more with each Mansus action and ignore mundane locks. The sacrament seems to be tied to how Jade first entered the mansus. Maybe it would her let it enter it physically? A new method of travel?

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Notably, the Sacrament isn't just entering the Mansus, but also seemingly creating a sort of halfway place that is both Mansus and Wake. Or something. We're still not entirely clear on how that works, but it's whatever her and Baldomare had to do for the Cult's inner meeting area.

 

[Shaper47]

but there will probably always HAVE to be at least one path leading up, because that seems to be an inherent property of the Mansus

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Unless Glory get devoured.

Which is probably going to be an option for us to take.

 

[Greymere]

Unless Glory get devoured.

Which is probably going to be an option for us to take.

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It'd be an incredibly dumb option though. Let's see, which do I want? Omnipotence or Wolfpocalypse? Gee, I just can't decide

 

[Ericwinter]

Maybe more on the necromancy side of things? Talking to the dead? Taking a page from the Ghoul and being able to absorb memories from corpses? Some kind of anti-dying power?

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The Ghoul thing would be more likely as Neighnia's Sacrament option. I expect it to probably be more along the lines of actually ending things, given our growing connection to the Wolf and recent murder, or to be an even stronger version of that icy pool in her mind.

 

[Talon TigerDino]

How do we know this. We know that gods are associated with higher levels of Mansus in character. Anything past that?

Citation needed.

And now we have a lot more power, and are no closer to understanding any of the current mysteries.

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I believe the Master made a point of saying that reaching the Glory allows you to shape the world and thus was one of the paths to stopping the Worms. Though I may be misremembering that.

We are no closer to understanding the mysteries because we haven't been investigating them. Too busy spinning other plates.