Dungeons and Dragons Megathread

I assume you'd still be ok if I played a martial character or alchemist or such.

My goal is high Tier three/low tier 2 for overall power. I know someone did a tier-list for PF, so consult that.

If you go non-magic//non-magic, then you're probably tier 4, tho.

I'm thinking of a point system for gestalt. Tier 4 = 1 point, Tier 3 = 2 points, Tier 2 = 3 points. You can also spend points to access LA buyoff or get a boost to your stat allocation. You get 6 or 7 points to spend.

Eh, honestly i don't like setting hard rules for the mast pat. I usually say "what is your concept, let's see if we can work together to make this work."

But if you don't want to learn2AMS..

Eh, it's still early to say if my summer is going to be conducive to running or not yet.

(My big DM weakness has always been battle grid maps. Anyone know of any resource for maps?)
 
My goal is high Tier three/low tier 2 for overall power. I know someone did a tier-list for PF, so consult that.

If you go non-magic//non-magic, then you're probably tier 4, tho.

I'm thinking of a point system for gestalt. Tier 4 = 1 point, Tier 3 = 2 points, Tier 2 = 3 points. You can also spend points to access LA buyoff or get a boost to your stat allocation. You get 6 or 7 points to spend.

Eh, honestly i don't like setting hard rules for the mast pat. I usually say "what is your concept, let's see if we can work together to make this work."

But if you don't want to learn2AMS..

Eh, it's still early to say if my summer is going to be conducive to running or not yet.

(My big DM weakness has always been battle grid maps. Anyone know of any resource for maps?)
So, just out of curiosity, but what is your rule for rolling Abilities?
Different GMs have different preferences.
 
Because compared to Psionics, Binding, Incarnum, and the like, she finds it less interesting.
 
Ah. What's so horrible about Vancian Magic? I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I don't understand why @Chloe Sullivan seems to hate it so much.

The four hour adventuring day? Resting for the explicit purpose of letting wizards recover their spells after nearly every fighy? Things like that. Plus you've got stuff like Tome of Battle/Path of War, Magic of Incarnum/Akashic Mysteries, 3.5 Psionics/ Dreamscarred Pathfinder psionics. The rabbit hole goes deeper too, especially if you go into some of the lesser known 3rd party writers.
 
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The four hour adventuring day? Resting for the explicit purpose of letting wizards recover their spells after as many fights as possible? Things like that. Plus you've got stuff like Tome of Battle/Path of War, Magic of Incarnum/Akashic Mysteries, 3.5 Psionics/ Dreamscarred Pathfinder psionics. The rabbit hole goes deeper too, especially if you go into some of the lesser known 3rd party writers. Interjection Games has a lot of exotic classes all written with a strong command of mechanics-ese. Tinkers who command squads of robo-minions, Magic users that focus on the play between light and dark/positive and negative energy, etc.

House rule it.
 
My goal is high Tier three/low tier 2 for overall power. I know someone did a tier-list for PF, so consult that.

If you go non-magic//non-magic, then you're probably tier 4, tho.

Hm, Alchemist is normally considered tier 3 I think, with some archetypes getting into 2. Sure, it's non-caster, but it's got fun abilities. Throw bombs, make allies, that sort of thing. Frankly a lot of magic, really! 'Put spell effects into potions and injections' type stuff

(The Vigilante/Magical Child is also in this tier range, the big problem with it being, well, slot spellcaster)
 
The four hour adventuring day? Resting for the explicit purpose of letting wizards recover their spells after nearly every fighy? Things like that. Plus you've got stuff like Tome of Battle/Path of War, Magic of Incarnum/Akashic Mysteries, 3.5 Psionics/ Dreamscarred Pathfinder psionics. The rabbit hole goes deeper too, especially if you go into some of the lesser known 3rd party writers. Interjection Games has a lot of exotic classes all written with a strong command of mechanics-ese. Tinkers who command squads of robo-minions, Magic users that focus on the play between light and dark/positive and negative energy, etc.

I do like hybrid classes who aren't useless when they're out of spells (and battle-cantrips are one of the nice additions of PF. Still, the total reliance on spells is something I don't like about full wizards, at least Sorcerers have bloodline abilities that often give non-casty powers). Ones who can mix things up a little when the juice is low, if sometimes requiring cleverness to be effective.

For me, I like the ability to use up abilities as the day goes by, be forced to rely on weaker options, and so on. Without the grinding down being in literal hitpoints with my other abilities never decreasing, or in the psionic's case of using one's power points to go nova, and without my plan being "using the same best option until I'm out of points for it, at which point I'm out of points for pretty much everything." There's fun in choosing the abilities, and there's fun in being out of some of them after over or underestimating a need.

Recharges, on the flip side, tend not to give many options (logically- if you can use them all day, just with rests in between, that puts a limit on how strong they can be), so if I'm not worrying about choice in spell abilities too much, I figure I might as well be playing a martial character and be worried more about choice in positioning and that sort of thing. Or a martial recharger, which can be fun.
 
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I envy people who can do that. :(
Here. I'll look over three.

Obviously, some of the basic 'attack' spells are pretty hard to do (though you can still use Magic Missile as a distraction, or cool a drink with Ray of Frost).
Prestidigitation is fairly awesome. You can light fires, clean yourself after a dip in mud, turn that hardtack into a tasty meal, and so on. It also has combat applications. If you've been doused in acid, a round of Prestidigitation to clean it off might be worth it. If you want to Intimidate someone, slowly turning their skin grey can be fun. Does a monster have a particular dislike for something? Flavor its saliva/clothing/random material. Even 'crude-looking' gold can distract the right (wrong) type. Heck, if you're playing with Gunslingers, then just make their powder wet. You can disguise the taste of poison. You can gather up spilled gunpowder into a pile, and then threaten to light it. You can literally tie someone's shoelaces together if they're close enough.
Mage Hand can be fun. You can throw rocks, attack with various vials, steal bolts out of enemy crossbows, throw switches, and turn on the TV without getting up.
Ghost Sound is surprisingly powerful, as long as they don't disbelieve it. Besides the obvious distraction/deception options, it can be useful when facing an enemy group. They can't plan strategy if there are an extra twelve (at Level 3) voices in the mix, each shouting conflicting orders. Besides that, it allows for one-sided communication, nails-on-chalkboard screeches, and dramatic thunderclaps whenever you need them (though that would probably take at least Level 5).
 
Ah. What's so horrible about Vancian Magic? I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I don't understand why @Chloe Sullivan seems to hate it so much.

i actually do quite enjoy vancian magic, but it makes for a lot of extra work for a DM, because there's all this annoying bloat. and legacy code that adds complexity without adding fun. and having to impose nerfs/bans to prevent overshadowing or trivialization. Also, a tier one caster can just circumvent some of my DM plans with a little work if at any time they feel like it, which makes it hard to keep the party on a coherent plot.

Honestly, i just like Incarnum and psionics and Pacts and want to run games where those get limelight. Seriously, you try run a game where one person is playing an incarnum class and another is running a tier 1/2 caster. The power differential gets pretty noticeable. Spellcasting just too easily steals the spotlight.
 
i actually do quite enjoy vancian magic, but it makes for a lot of extra work for a DM, because there's all this annoying bloat. and legacy code that adds complexity without adding fun. and having to impose nerfs/bans to prevent overshadowing or trivialization. Also, a tier one caster can just circumvent some of my DM plans with a little work if at any time they feel like it, which makes it hard to keep the party on a coherent plot.

Honestly, i just like Incarnum and psionics and Pacts and want to run games where those get limelight. Seriously, you try run a game where one person is playing an incarnum class and another is running a tier 1/2 caster. The power differential gets pretty noticeable. Spellcasting just too easily steals the spotlight.

I don't understand tiers and my knowledge of Psionics begins in 1e and ends in 2e.
 
Psionics is entirely different in 3E, and Tiers are also 3E-only due to how poorly balanced it is. Basically spellcasting is objectively better than all other classes like in no other edition before or after.
 
i actually do quite enjoy vancian magic, but it makes for a lot of extra work for a DM, because there's all this annoying bloat. and legacy code that adds complexity without adding fun. and having to impose nerfs/bans to prevent overshadowing or trivialization. Also, a tier one caster can just circumvent some of my DM plans with a little work if at any time they feel like it, which makes it hard to keep the party on a coherent plot.

Honestly, i just like Incarnum and psionics and Pacts and want to run games where those get limelight. Seriously, you try run a game where one person is playing an incarnum class and another is running a tier 1/2 caster. The power differential gets pretty noticeable. Spellcasting just too easily steals the spotlight.
So, just out of curiosity, but what is your rule for rolling Abilities?
Different GMs have different preferences.
 
I don't understand tiers and my knowledge of Psionics begins in 1e and ends in 2e.

Tiers are how flexable + powerful a character is.

They range from tier 5 (Can do one thing, period, and other stuff out there can often do it better), tier 4 (Good in one area, plus has some stuff outside it, or ok in lots of areas), tier 3 (Good in multiple areas), tier 2 (Good in a variety of areas, though sometimes requiring some work), and finally tier 1 (doesn't take much work to be good in pretty much any situation).

Like, Wizards are tier 1 since each day, they can customize their spell list to their likely tasks. Need to smash? Summons. Need to sneak? Invisibility, knock-spell, silence. Need information? Scrying spells.

Sorcerers are tier 2 since they can't adjust their spell list, they only learn spells when they level, though careful selection can have them ready for a wide range of stuff.

Bard's tier 3 since it can buff reasonably well, fight ok, do a pretty good job at having skills, and the limited casting. A number of 'has some spellcasting, but limited,' types fall in here.

Barbarians are tier 4 since they can smash stuff *really* well, plus good skills and their rage powers and abilities give them some usefulness outside of combat. Rangers and Paladins, likewise, they can fight and have some supplementary powers.

Rogues are tier 5. They can skill, but nothing a Bard can't do (or a wizard can't replace with proper spells). They can fight about as well as a bard, but don't have the bards spell list. Fighters are tier 5 since they can fight and that's it, their skills are worse than barb, paladin, or ranger.

Warriors and Experts are tier 6. Warriors only fight, but worse than fighters. Experts only skill, but are otherwise worse than rogues. Truenamer are tier 6 despite intending to be a serious class, because Truenamers are just that poorly designed.

Psionics is entirely different in 3E, and Tiers are also 3E-only due to how poorly balanced it is. Basically spellcasting is objectively better than all other classes like in no other edition before or after.

One could do tiers for prior editions, but it's rarely worth bothering. I mean, *of course* Paladin is better than fighter, it's a fighter + other stuff. And Rogues are just kinda weak, but necessary because there's not really alternatives to getting some of their skills.

And 'wizards start out weaker but end up stronger,' is a well-regarded fact, but it takes longer for crossover to occur, and monsters have fewer HP and 'win the battle spells' rarer and harder to use, so the fighter has a bigger effectiveness sweet spot.
 
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Tiers are how flexable + powerful a character is.

They range from tier 5 (Can do one thing, period, and other stuff out there can often do it better), tier 4 (Good in one area, plus has some stuff outside it, or ok in lots of areas), tier 3 (Good in multiple areas), tier 2 (Good in a variety of areas, though sometimes requiring some work), and finally tier 1 (doesn't take much work to be good in pretty much any situation).

Like, Wizards are tier 1 since each day, they can customize their spell list to their likely tasks. Need to smash? Summons. Need to sneak? Invisibility, knock-spell, silence. Need information? Scrying spells.

Sorcerers are tier 2 since they can't adjust their spell list, they only learn spells when they level, though careful selection can have them ready for a wide range of stuff.

Bard's tier 3 since it can buff reasonably well, fight ok, do a pretty good job at having skills, and the limited casting. A number of 'has some spellcasting, but limited,' types fall in here.

Barbarians are tier 4 since they can smash stuff *really* well, plus good skills and their rage powers and abilities give them some usefulness outside of combat. Rangers and Paladins, likewise, they can fight and have some supplementary powers.

Rogues are tier 5. They can skill, but nothing a Bard can't do (or a wizard can't replace with proper spells). They can fight about as well as a bard, but don't have the bards spell list. Fighters are tier 5 since they can fight and that's it, their skills are worse than barb, paladin, or ranger.

Warriors and Experts are tier 6. Warriors only fight, but worse than fighters. Experts only skill, but are otherwise worse than rogues. Truenamer are tier 6 despite intending to be a serious class, because Truenamers are just that poorly designed.



One could do tiers for prior editions, but it's rarely worth bothering. I mean, *of course* Paladin is better than fighter, it's a fighter + other stuff. And Rogues are just kinda weak, but necessary because there's not really alternatives to getting some of their skills.

And 'wizards start out weaker but end up stronger,' is a well-regarded fact.

rogues in 3.5 are actually tier 4, mostly because trapfinding is much more niche, but also because they had more options for sneak attack tricks and UMD shenanigans, while Paladins were tier 5 due to having rather less raw power than the PF version.

Truenamers are actually outside the tier system, because they're written such that they don't function at all without using some fairly obscure tricks, but if you have those tricks, they are a solid tier 4.

man i haven't even said for sure that i will run, what's the rush?

I prefer "plus nine" for stat generatoon - I'm pretty genrous as a DM.

Every stat has to be between 8 and 18, four stats even and two stats odd, and the sum of your stat mods should be +9.

yes, this does mean you can in theory have 9 9 8 18 18 18 before racial adjustments, but generally players don't do that.
 
rogues in 3.5 are actually tier 4, mostly because trapfinding is much more niche, but also because they had more options for sneak attack tricks and UMD shenanigans, while Paladins were tier 5 due to having rather less raw power than the PF version.

Truenamers are actually outside the tier system, because they're written such that they don't function at all without using some fairly obscure tricks, but if you have those tricks, they are a solid tier 4.

Yea, sneak attack got worst, pallies got better. And the Unchained version of Rogue is a bit better, hitting 4 as well.


The Vigilante is one of those fun classes with a lot of options of different tier. I think the Magical ones are considered tier 3, fighty and sneaky ones Tier 4.
 
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Gestalt Variant Rules
My goal is high Tier three/low tier 2 for overall power. I know someone did a tier-list for PF, so consult that.

If you go non-magic//non-magic, then you're probably tier 4, tho.

I'm thinking of a point system for gestalt. Tier 4 = 1 point, Tier 3 = 2 points, Tier 2 = 3 points. You can also spend points to access LA buyoff or get a boost to your stat allocation. You get 6 or 7 points to spend.

Eh, honestly i don't like setting hard rules for the mast pat. I usually say "what is your concept, let's see if we can work together to make this work."

But if you don't want to learn2AMS..

Eh, it's still early to say if my summer is going to be conducive to running or not yet.

(My big DM weakness has always been battle grid maps. Anyone know of any resource for maps?)
I've actually played with a point based tiered gestalt before.

  • We'll use the Gestalt variant rules from Unearthed Arcana with a few important changes:
  • Each character receives a number of Character Points (CPs) based on his or her effective character level.
  • Each class or significant character option (such as a template) costs a certain number of CPs based on its tier or the effective tier increase. See Tier System for Classes for examples. We'll try to compose a full table of 3.P class tiers soon, but in general lower tiered classes went up in Pathfinder while higher tier classes stayed the same. Templates cost a minimum of the cumulative ability score bonuses given by the template, while other options like the leadership feat or the symbiotic template can effectively double a character's total options. Generally, anything that doubles your options (or makes you twice as effective), increases your tier. If you're unsure, ask.
  • You may ignore the restrictions on prestige classes for gestalt characters. Classes or prestige classes that advance class features continue on that class's track (see below).
  • Unused CPs carry over to the next level. If you retrain something you spent CPs on, you get any remaining after purchasing new options back into your pool.
  • Extra feats can be taken based on the cost of the tier 3 track, and you can take more than one per level (for example, you could gain 3 bonus feats for 7 CPs).
  • The tier system is only a rough outline, and the CP amounts aren't meant to be especially restrictive. It may be that CP costs are changed due to power level concerns. Once you're confirmed for the game, and you're building your character, please track the CPs you've spent by outlining your class levels in a table and the amount you spent on each option.
    Character Point costs by Level and Tier
    Level | Points Per Level | Total Points | Tier 0 | Tier 1 | Tier 2 | Tier 3 | Tier 4 | Tier 5 | Tier 6 |
    1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    2 4 6 2 2 2 2 2 2 1
    3 8 14 4 4 4 4 4 2 1
    4 16 30 8 8 8 8 4 2 1
    5 24 54 16 16 16 8 4 2 1
    6 24 78 32 32 16 8 4 2 1
    7 24 102 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    8 24 126 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    9 24 150 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    10 24 174 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    11 24 198 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    12 24 222 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    13 24 246 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    14 24 270 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    15 24 294 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    16 24 318 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    17 24 342 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    18 24 366 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    19 24 390 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    20 25 415 64 32 16 8 4 2 1

Also, Savage Species yes/no? I've got a Paladin concept that I think would work well for this, though she originally relied on sorc spellcasting (persistent thunderlance for that sweet, sweet SAD).
 
I've actually played with a point based tiered gestalt before.

  • We'll use the Gestalt variant rules from Unearthed Arcana with a few important changes:
  • Each character receives a number of Character Points (CPs) based on his or her effective character level.
  • Each class or significant character option (such as a template) costs a certain number of CPs based on its tier or the effective tier increase. See Tier System for Classes for examples. We'll try to compose a full table of 3.P class tiers soon, but in general lower tiered classes went up in Pathfinder while higher tier classes stayed the same. Templates cost a minimum of the cumulative ability score bonuses given by the template, while other options like the leadership feat or the symbiotic template can effectively double a character's total options. Generally, anything that doubles your options (or makes you twice as effective), increases your tier. If you're unsure, ask.
  • You may ignore the restrictions on prestige classes for gestalt characters. Classes or prestige classes that advance class features continue on that class's track (see below).
  • Unused CPs carry over to the next level. If you retrain something you spent CPs on, you get any remaining after purchasing new options back into your pool.
  • Extra feats can be taken based on the cost of the tier 3 track, and you can take more than one per level (for example, you could gain 3 bonus feats for 7 CPs).
  • The tier system is only a rough outline, and the CP amounts aren't meant to be especially restrictive. It may be that CP costs are changed due to power level concerns. Once you're confirmed for the game, and you're building your character, please track the CPs you've spent by outlining your class levels in a table and the amount you spent on each option.
    Character Point costs by Level and Tier
    Level | Points Per Level | Total Points | Tier 0 | Tier 1 | Tier 2 | Tier 3 | Tier 4 | Tier 5 | Tier 6 |
    1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    2 4 6 2 2 2 2 2 2 1
    3 8 14 4 4 4 4 4 2 1
    4 16 30 8 8 8 8 4 2 1
    5 24 54 16 16 16 8 4 2 1
    6 24 78 32 32 16 8 4 2 1
    7 24 102 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    8 24 126 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    9 24 150 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    10 24 174 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    11 24 198 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    12 24 222 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    13 24 246 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    14 24 270 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    15 24 294 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    16 24 318 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    17 24 342 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    18 24 366 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    19 24 390 64 32 16 8 4 2 1
    20 25 415 64 32 16 8 4 2 1

Also, Savage Species yes/no? I've got a Paladin concept that I think would work well for this, though she originally relied on sorc spellcasting (persistent thunderlance for that sweet, sweet SAD).
that chart is pretty impresive, but way more fiddly than i want to deal with.

Re: paladins, they're one of the PF things I was annoyed with - while thye got a powerboost it was in a very inelgant way I didn't much care for. They honestly kinda irk me. (i reserve outright hatred for the PF bard) However, archetypes may mean that there are not irritating PF paladins, so i dunno.

If you want SAD paladin, 3.5 has divine feats and Snowflake Wardance (who doesn't love smite to song?) to make that happen. Or Serenity + Intuitive Attack.

I don't like to do banlists, i prefer to hear what the mechanic setup you want to run is and give a yay/nay. Savage Species is what, 3.0?
 
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