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5e Bards are OP, yeah. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Bard in D&D has always been good.
Dungeons and Dragons Megathread
- Thread starter Havocfett
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the thing about bards in 3rd/5th edition dnd is that they're really good at things the developers didn't hugely care about; like, the reason 5th ed bards are so comically overstacked for skill bonuses is that mike mearls, at least, doesn't pay attention to modifiers for skill/attribute checks - he just looks at the raw die roll and eyeballs it (you can see this happen in some of the streamed playtests for D&D Next).
but they are "bad" at doing raw damage (unless they steal fireball from the wizard list, but never mind that), which qualifies as a weakness in the eyes of the game-design prodigies that gave us the berserker barbarian, so they're balanced actually.
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
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Dungeons and Dragons has never been about 'balance' and people really need to stop pretending that it is.
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i feel like there's different kinds of balance that get awkwardly conflated into one blob. like, kevin siembieda was probably right when he said that there's no such thing as a perfectly balanced game, but that's in terms of power balance. whereas i think the most common issue of balance in ttrpgs is narrative balance; like, part of the reason the 5th edition bard is a problem is that it overshadows everyone who isn't playing optimally.
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
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That's a good point that I hadn't considered, thank you.
CnidarianMessiah
Totally not a flying polyp <whistles innocently>
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Strong agreement! It was HPLs description of the strange colors of "blue-litten K'n-Yan" compared to Gygax description of the strange colors of everything under the radiation in the Vault of the Drow that first led me to draw the connection.
Are you sure about this? AFAIK it was the Parkinson cover for "GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders" supermodule that made them look like big-hair 80's singers? The earliest cover for "D3 Vault of the Drow" shows Lolth in her spider-with-human-face form and Eclavdra(?) and both look white(?!), and the second module cover, by Erol Otus shows Eclavdra as obsidian-skinned.
Interior illustrations are harder to place in time but they are all over the place: The famous Bill Willingham picture of a drow raiding party shows them as obsidian (Note, this is from D1-2 the combo of "D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth" and "D2 Shrine of the Kou-Toa", and reused in "GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders"), while one by Erol Otus(?!) in the same module as the one for which he made the cover shows Eclavdra(?) as white!?!
To me the drow is more of a direction than a specific thing. It is the humanoid boogeymen down in the deepest caves that turns out to be not a one-off but a persistent threat. A persistent underground threat that reveals itself to be a previously semi-unknown hostile group. A large hostile underground group that finally shows themselves to be the rulers of an alien underground world.
It is the sense that at the deep end of the rabbit hole there is a bigger rabbit hole and a bigger rabbit hole and so on.
When I played Skyrim I thought the Falmer were a very good variation on this theme: I was going through the Winterhold College questline when I was directed to Mzulft to find an Imperial expedition of mages from Cyrodil to see what I could find out from them regarding this huge floating magic energy-thingy that Not-Dumbledore and his students had dragged home from Saarthal.
I had never heard about Falmer then. But as I worked my way downwards I found the members of the expedition dead one after the other, and finally I encountered what had killed them.
Or rather they encountered me. Strange humanoid blind elf-things that were impossible to ambush because of their sharp hearing despite my good but not godly stealth. And they outclassed me in straight up melee. So I knuckled down to doing it slowly and systematically and with many quicksaves
And then I discovered their insect pets, and they were acid-spitting melee terrors.
Later in the first playthrought I had additional encounters with them. I learned to recognize their chitin architecture and discovered that they marked the entrances of their caves with 'pelvises on sticks' (lower extreme left in picture), enabling me to avoid them when possible
At a lighthouse at the north shore of Skyrim I discovered that the Falmer had tunneled into the basement and murdered/kidnapped the family living there.
And finally in the Dawnguard expansion that main quest chain led me further down, down beneath the deepest (known) Dwemer ruins, following the trace of a group of adventurers the Falmer had ambushed, kidnapped, tortured and experimented on. And down there I discovered the 'Vault of the Falmer' aka Blackreach, full of Falmer and their slaves.
In summary I think the Falmer were variation of one of the origins of drow, the Tsathians/'Men of K'n-Yan' strand not the 'Dark Fey' strand, mixed with the 'lives among the magitech ruins' from the Dero. And instead of huge ravenous spiders they got huge ravenous earwigs
I had never heard about Falmer then. But as I worked my way downwards I found the members of the expedition dead one after the other, and finally I encountered what had killed them.
Or rather they encountered me. Strange humanoid blind elf-things that were impossible to ambush because of their sharp hearing despite my good but not godly stealth. And they outclassed me in straight up melee. So I knuckled down to doing it slowly and systematically and with many quicksaves
And then I discovered their insect pets, and they were acid-spitting melee terrors.
Later in the first playthrought I had additional encounters with them. I learned to recognize their chitin architecture and discovered that they marked the entrances of their caves with 'pelvises on sticks' (lower extreme left in picture), enabling me to avoid them when possible
At a lighthouse at the north shore of Skyrim I discovered that the Falmer had tunneled into the basement and murdered/kidnapped the family living there.
And finally in the Dawnguard expansion that main quest chain led me further down, down beneath the deepest (known) Dwemer ruins, following the trace of a group of adventurers the Falmer had ambushed, kidnapped, tortured and experimented on. And down there I discovered the 'Vault of the Falmer' aka Blackreach, full of Falmer and their slaves.
In summary I think the Falmer were variation of one of the origins of drow, the Tsathians/'Men of K'n-Yan' strand not the 'Dark Fey' strand, mixed with the 'lives among the magitech ruins' from the Dero. And instead of huge ravenous spiders they got huge ravenous earwigs
(Edit: corrected a mistargeted link)
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Yeah, I don't really agree with the decision in 5E to make bards full spellcasters, and even less with PF2E copying that decision.
Bards' thing tends to be "jack of all trades, master of none" but prior to 5E if you'd asked me which of the standard D&D roles the bard filled, I would have said that they were primarily a skill monkey like the rogue, with a side gig in support magic. Now 5E has decided that they don't want 2/3rds casters, that's fine. Never mind that they've kept the ranger and paladin as half-casters (upgraded slightly to 5/9ths casters, even, getting magic sooner and up to 5th level spells instead of 4th) so you'd think they could do that with the bard. They decided that they want it to be an arcane full caster (in a game that already has three other arcane spellcaster classes), fine. But it's also still got more skills than any other class but the ranger and rogue and the rogue's Expertise ability, and the hit points and weapon/armor proficiencies of a rogue, plus their bardic music abilities. (And in 5E everyone has the same proficiency bonus to attack roles, and the rapier has 1d8 damage like all the non-finesse one-handed weapons, so having rapier proficiency and a good Dex is as much damage as anyone can do with a one-handed weapon.) So it does seem like the 5E bard is just kind of good at everything.
For the PF2E version, there are at least different levels of proficiency, so the bard can be slightly worse at fighting than non-caster classes, but if they were determined to no have half-caster classes, I kind of wish that instead of going full caster they'd cut spell-slot casting like they did with the ranger and paladin and instead focused more on their unique bardic abilities like performance and lore.
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Our con-man of a cleric started a race riot in our session today. Going to be lots of good times dealing with that next week!
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- Northern Virginia
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- He/Him
You can't just drop that and not elaborate!
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- He
Our cleric had started his own religion based on redistributing the wealth. And since he has yet to make it clear how or where that wealth will be redistributed, he's managed to attract the attention of the finance crowd. To capitalize on that and to build a bond with a talking pigeon he met, he hosted a Pigeon Festival in the city's park so people could come, buy some crackers and then redistribute them to the city's pigeons. It was a big hit, especially with the pigeons.
Then the crows arrived. And man, the crows were not happy about smaller, weaker, dumber pigeons getting crackers now when the Crow Festival was six months off. And they were even less happy when the supply of crackers ran out so they wouldn't even be getting the leftovers. So they started work on fixing that, which is when the session ended.
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
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That sounds great!
Not in Person
Once Known as The Nobody
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Hello! I'm looking for advice.
I'm not very experienced in RPGs, having played almost literally a single chapter of a single campaign of something Pathfinder-like. And a friend has recently asked me if I'm familiar with "This 'DnD' thing in those parodies on Youtube". In the end, we've agreed to try some sort of a roleplaying game together. "Some sort" being, likely, Pathfinder, because it's available online (I'm only familiar with the first edition). Or Maid RPG, because it's available to me personally, and seems kind of easier to grasp for a newbie. Our mode of play will be, probably, one-on-one, and the theme will be something detective-y and a bit adventure-y.
So, what kind of advice I'm looking for. First of all, can anybody recommend a campaign for 2-3 characters (one or two players) with an investigation theme? I'd also be grateful for any advice about how we could play together with no GM, or minimum GM preparation/involvement. And lastly, but kinda off-topic, I wouldn't mind if y'all shared your thoughts, experiences or impressions about any other systems, which would be more beginner-friendly than Pathfinder, a bit less silly than Maid RPG, and easily available. I have tried researching some of that personally, but I feel overwhelmed by all the options.
I'm not very experienced in RPGs, having played almost literally a single chapter of a single campaign of something Pathfinder-like. And a friend has recently asked me if I'm familiar with "This 'DnD' thing in those parodies on Youtube". In the end, we've agreed to try some sort of a roleplaying game together. "Some sort" being, likely, Pathfinder, because it's available online (I'm only familiar with the first edition). Or Maid RPG, because it's available to me personally, and seems kind of easier to grasp for a newbie. Our mode of play will be, probably, one-on-one, and the theme will be something detective-y and a bit adventure-y.
So, what kind of advice I'm looking for. First of all, can anybody recommend a campaign for 2-3 characters (one or two players) with an investigation theme? I'd also be grateful for any advice about how we could play together with no GM, or minimum GM preparation/involvement. And lastly, but kinda off-topic, I wouldn't mind if y'all shared your thoughts, experiences or impressions about any other systems, which would be more beginner-friendly than Pathfinder, a bit less silly than Maid RPG, and easily available. I have tried researching some of that personally, but I feel overwhelmed by all the options.
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right so since you're asking for gmless/gm-minimal rpgs, i can't recommend Ironsworn enough; it's a well-designed, self-contained game that ticks basically all your boxes AND it's free. the assumed setting is a kinda dark, kinda low-middle-ages fantasy world, but there's also a standalone sci-fi version: Starforged (which does cost money) and itch.io is crawling with setting hacks for everything from ATLA to, like, cowboy shit. again, can't recommend it enough.
Not in Person
Once Known as The Nobody
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This is where I make a silly reference to a meme about the joke being on you, because I'm into that shit. I took a brief glance at Ironsworn and the Cowboy Alternative Rules, and I believe it's very likely going to be fun. And your suggestion also gave me a few hints that might be useful if we decide to stick with the Maid RPG (i.e., cowboy maids), so thank you twice.
Question, how do y'all feel about dnd dragons? Do like them, dislike them or think they Sr missing something to really stand out?
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I liked them how they were first introduced. Ancient, powerful in magic beyond all but the greatest human mages, hundreds of feet long from nose to tail, with their own culture and their own religions and wars. I don't like how they got nerfed, first shrinking massively in size when 3rd rolled around to sell minifigs, then losing their magic in 4th and 5th because they couldn't have anything that could play all the combat roles at once
I cna understand that sentiment, although aren't they still spellcasters? There are still rules for them to be natural sorcerers in the dm book if I recall, and I run my dragons as spellcasters anyway since I love dragons. I have the battlezoo book for playing dragons for crying out loud!
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Optional rules iirc. I know that they aren't in straight MM anymore.
But yeah. I even have Council of Wyrms, because I thought playing as a dragon was a cool idea. (2e setting, players are either dragons or "kin" which are essentially high ranking servants of the settings dragon aristocracy.)
I actually have council of wyrms myself, a 5e conversion to be fair but my players so far have been enjoying it for what it is.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Dragons are fun, but best used sparingly so that they maintain their sense of menace.
Pathfinder, when they still wrote for D&D 3.5E before spinning off their own game, released a Dragons Revisited book that I really liked. It gave each kind of metallic and chromatic dragon their own particular flavor of good or evil that made them much more interesting. It provided me with some valuable inspiration for games I was running.
Pathfinder, when they still wrote for D&D 3.5E before spinning off their own game, released a Dragons Revisited book that I really liked. It gave each kind of metallic and chromatic dragon their own particular flavor of good or evil that made them much more interesting. It provided me with some valuable inspiration for games I was running.
True enough, apart from my campaign I don't think we have actually ever fought a dragon, and I deliberately made the Chrome dragon my players a bit stronger yet weaker to make the fight a bit more difficult. They got knocked about a bunch but they managed to make it run and kill it.
Also the dragon ancestries book i have actually has bunch of info on the 45 playable ancestries and how the various dragon undertake and regard the lux aeterna ritual. So for someone who's interested in that kind of stuff it's really welcome.
I also am of the opinion that some dragons like chromatic or mettalic dragons shoydl be outside the norm of their alignment, like a good purple or blue dragon could be a very interesting npc or ally, and a bronze or gold dragon a uncommon antagonist.
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There may be no one involved old enough to have played first edition AD&D but it is at least possible.
In old AD&D, a human character that goes to 3rd level as a fighter and then switched to Magic User (Now the Wizard class) would not be considered a fourth level character. They would need whatever experience to go from first to second level as a Magic User. The advantage was that you would have enough hit points to survive far better. Original magic users used 1d4 for hit points. This was only available for humans with other races able to advance in multiple classes at once. As an elf fighter/magic user, as an example, you would split the experience between classes. Non humans were generally limited in level however.
The issue though was that by the rules if you switched to a magic user at third level but during combat drew a sword and used it to fight before you reached third level as a magic user, you would gain no experience for that adventure. What I am kind of curious, if anyone played the older system, if game masters ever actually enforced it? In my games we did not.
In old AD&D, a human character that goes to 3rd level as a fighter and then switched to Magic User (Now the Wizard class) would not be considered a fourth level character. They would need whatever experience to go from first to second level as a Magic User. The advantage was that you would have enough hit points to survive far better. Original magic users used 1d4 for hit points. This was only available for humans with other races able to advance in multiple classes at once. As an elf fighter/magic user, as an example, you would split the experience between classes. Non humans were generally limited in level however.
The issue though was that by the rules if you switched to a magic user at third level but during combat drew a sword and used it to fight before you reached third level as a magic user, you would gain no experience for that adventure. What I am kind of curious, if anyone played the older system, if game masters ever actually enforced it? In my games we did not.
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Still running AD&D. I am a bit nicer. I say no experience gain for the encounter, because obviously swinging that sword didn't help you learn to be a better wizard, now did it?
Astrid Fornhoff
Perpetual Depressant
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I've run AD&D and never enforced that.
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- Somewhere
To be honest, I've had all of one player really use the Dual Classing rules, so it doesn't really come up much.
Thing is:
if you're just doing it to be a mage with more HP, then the DM should penalize you. That's blatant metagaming as well as the unforgivable crime of munchkinry
If you're doing it because the end goal is simulating a guy who started as a warrior and then turned to magic/religion as age started catching up to him, then that's a neat idea and should be supported.
Thing is:
if you're just doing it to be a mage with more HP, then the DM should penalize you. That's blatant metagaming as well as the unforgivable crime of munchkinry
If you're doing it because the end goal is simulating a guy who started as a warrior and then turned to magic/religion as age started catching up to him, then that's a neat idea and should be supported.