Dungeons and Dragons Megathread

[SinisterPorpoise]

Really? Never really read up on anything from 3e so I wouldn't know what they are.

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The Lupin from Mystara;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbsoN8SJLaw
Also rules for Hound Archons PCs eventually, even if they weren't great.
edit:
Also various rules for anthro animals of a variety of species, but the mechanics for those have always been shaky at best.

 

[The Narrator]

Yeah, I'm a little worried about that part but I have no idea how to address it.

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I can see a few different options for how to disadvantage Versatile Attacks:

1. Don't worry about it. They're not especially powerful (a lot of them were things that you could just do with a feat in previous editions), the target gets a saving throw, they don't last very long and you only get to do it once a round.
2. Add a different kind of damage penalty to be comparable to Cunning Strike. A flat -2 or -3, perhaps, or sacrificing your STR/DEX bonus.
3. Have some kind of different penalty. If it's an attack roll penalty, then they would have to choose it before they attacked, presumably, so we'd probably have to remove the once-per-round limitation so that people didn't waste their only chance. Alternately, you can use a Versatile Attack if your attack roll succeeds by some extra amount (like beat their AC by 5 or more).
4. Have it use a different resource/limitation, like how the Battle Master's maneuvers use up your Superiority Dice.
5. Require some kind of advantageous circumstance, like a Rogue's Sneak Attack.

But then again, Blindness, 2nd level spell, Con save or be blind for up to a minute (with a repeating save)?

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Unfortunately, that's been a recurring problem in most editions of the game: martials will have to sink a bunch of resources into being able to do a lesser version of something that spellcasters were able to do six levels earlier.

Don't even have pathfinder to play lol, just 5e dnd,

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You actually do have it! All of the rules are available online for free, legally!

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

Have it use a different resource/limitation, like how the Battle Master's maneuvers use up your Superiority Dice.
Require some kind of advantageous circumstance, like a Rogue's Sneak Attack.

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These two sounded like the most in line with Cunning Strike to me, so I took another crack at it.

(except for Fighter, Fighter gets it for free, they deserve it)

Spoiler: Bespoke Abilities

Bespoke Abilities, Very First Draft, especially for the extra level 9 features (which I'm still pondering)

Barbarian-
Furious Attack

Starting at 5th level, you have embraced your reckless nature and have developed techniques to use it in your attacks. Once per turn when you make a Reckless Attack, you can add one of the following Furious Attack effects.

If the Furious Attack requires a saving throw, the DC equals 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Strength modifier.

Hurl: if the target is Large or smaller, it must succeed on a Strength Saving Throw or be moved 10 feet in a direction of your choosing. At level 9, the target is moved a distance equal to your Strength score. 



Terrify: The target must succeed on a Wisdom Saving Throw or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn. At level 9, you can choose an additional creature within 15 feet which must also make the Wisdom Saving Throw or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn.


Paladin-
Steadfast Attack

Starting at 5th level, you have honed your martial might and fully internalized your Oath, granting yourself and your attacks more focus. Once per turn when you make the Attack action and your first attack hits, you can make the attack a Steadfast attack at the cost of your Extra Attack. You can still Divine Smite with this attack.

If the Steadfast Attack requires a saving throw, the DC equals 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Charisma modifier.

Goad: The target must succeed on a Wisdom Saving Throw or have Disadvantage on all attack rolls against creatures other than you until the end of your next turn. At level 9, you can choose an additional creature within 15 feet which must also make the Wisdom Saving Throw or have Disadvantage on all attack rolls against creatures other than you until the end of your next turn.

Stagger: The target loses its reaction until the end of its next turn. In addition, the target must make a Strength Saving Throw or fall prone. At level 9, you can make an additional attack (as if with the Extra Attack feature) after making this Steadfast Attack.


Ranger-
Hunter's Strike

Starting at 5th level, you have become an experienced hunter of all manner of creatures, and learned to take advantage of their weaknesses. Once per turn, when you have marked a creature as your Favored Foe you can make a Hunter's Strike against them, replacing one of your ordinary attacks.

If the Hunter's Strike requires a saving throw, the DC equals 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Wisdom modifier.

Hobble: The target must succeed on a Dexterity Saving Throw or have its speed reduced by twenty feet until the end of its next turn. At level 9, the creature's speed is reduced by forty feet.

Bleed: The target must succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw or bleed, taking 1d4 extra damage from all attacks until the end of your next turn. At level 9, the creature takes 1d6 damage from all attacks until the end of your next turn.

Track: The target must make a Wisdom Saving Throw or be marked by your innate magic, giving you Advantage on Wisdom (Survival) and Wisdom (Perception) checks made to find or track them for the next hour. At level 9, this advantage lasts for four hours.


Monk-
Flowing Strike

Starting at 5th level, you have progressed in your mastery of unarmed combat. Once per turn when you make a Flurry of Blows, you can add a Flowing Strike effect to one of your two Unarmed Strikes. At level 9, you can add a Flowing Strike effect to both of your Unarmed Strikes.

Daze: The target must succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw or be Dazed until the end of its next turn. A Dazed creature can Move or take an Action on its turn, not both, and cannot take a Bonus Action or Reaction.


Discombobulate: The target must succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw or be Blinded until the end of its next turn.


Fighter-
Versatile Attack

Starting at 5th level, you have gained proficiency in all manner of weapons and become an expert in many theaters of combat. You gain a Versatile Dice, a d6. Your Versatile Dice changes when your character reaches higher levels, becoming a d8 at 9th level, a d10 at 13th level, a d12 at 17th level, and 2d6 at 20th level.

Once per turn when you take the Attack action and your Attack successfully hits, you can choose to make a Versatile Attack. You can choose to use your weapon's damage die or your Versatile Dice when it makes a Versatile Attack. Your Versatile Attack has an additional Versatile effect of your choosing, which are listed below.

If a Versatile Effect requires a Saving Throw, the DC is 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Strength OR Dexterity Modifier (chosen when you achieve this feature).

Disarm: The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it drops one item of your choice that it's holding.

Trip: If the target is Large or smaller, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or have the Prone condition.

Mark: You mark the target, giving you advantage on opportunity attacks against it. Until the end of your next turn, any opportunity attacks you make against the Marked target don't expend your Reaction.

Maneuver: The target must succeed on a Strength Saving Throw. On a failure, you and the target move up to half your speed in a direction of your choosing. Neither you nor the target trigger attacks of opportunity with this movement.

Distract: The target must succeed on a Wisdom Saving Throw. On a failure, the next attack against the target by a creature other than you has Advantage.

Redirect: The target must succeed on a Dexterity Saving Throw. On a failure, it must roll your Versatile Dice and reduce the damage of its next attack by that amount. If the damage is reduced to 0 and the attack has any other features, such as a Ghoul's paralyzing claws, those features do not take effect.

 

[The Narrator]

These two sounded like the most in line with Cunning Strike to me, so I took another crack at it.

(except for Fighter, Fighter gets it for free, they deserve it)

Spoiler: Bespoke Abilities

Bespoke Abilities, Very First Draft, especially for the extra level 9 features (which I'm still pondering)

Barbarian-
Furious Attack

Starting at 5th level, you have embraced your reckless nature and have developed techniques to use it in your attacks. Once per turn when you make a Reckless Attack, you can add one of the following Furious Attack effects.

If the Furious Attack requires a saving throw, the DC equals 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Strength modifier.

Hurl: if the target is Large or smaller, it must succeed on a Strength Saving Throw or be moved 10 feet in a direction of your choosing. At level 9, the target is moved a distance equal to your Strength score. 



Terrify: The target must succeed on a Wisdom Saving Throw or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn. At level 9, you can choose an additional creature within 15 feet which must also make the Wisdom Saving Throw or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn.


Paladin-
Steadfast Attack

Starting at 5th level, you have honed your martial might and fully internalized your Oath, granting yourself and your attacks more focus. Once per turn when you make the Attack action and your first attack hits, you can make the attack a Steadfast attack at the cost of your Extra Attack. You can still Divine Smite with this attack.

If the Steadfast Attack requires a saving throw, the DC equals 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Charisma modifier.

Goad: The target must succeed on a Wisdom Saving Throw or have Disadvantage on all attack rolls against creatures other than you until the end of your next turn. At level 9, you can choose an additional creature within 15 feet which must also make the Wisdom Saving Throw or have Disadvantage on all attack rolls against creatures other than you until the end of your next turn.

Stagger: The target loses its reaction until the end of its next turn. In addition, the target must make a Strength Saving Throw or fall prone. At level 9, you can make an additional attack (as if with the Extra Attack feature) after making this Steadfast Attack.


Ranger-
Hunter's Strike

Starting at 5th level, you have become an experienced hunter of all manner of creatures, and learned to take advantage of their weaknesses. Once per turn, when you have marked a creature as your Favored Foe you can make a Hunter's Strike against them, replacing one of your ordinary attacks.

If the Hunter's Strike requires a saving throw, the DC equals 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Wisdom modifier.

Hobble: The target must succeed on a Dexterity Saving Throw or have its speed reduced by twenty feet until the end of its next turn. At level 9, the creature's speed is reduced by forty feet.

Bleed: The target must succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw or bleed, taking 1d4 extra damage from all attacks until the end of your next turn. At level 9, the creature takes 1d6 damage from all attacks until the end of your next turn.

Track: The target must make a Wisdom Saving Throw or be marked by your innate magic, giving you Advantage on Wisdom (Survival) and Wisdom (Perception) checks made to find or track them for the next hour. At level 9, this advantage lasts for four hours.


Monk-
Flowing Strike

Starting at 5th level, you have progressed in your mastery of unarmed combat. Once per turn when you make a Flurry of Blows, you can add a Flowing Strike effect to one of your two Unarmed Strikes. At level 9, you can add a Flowing Strike effect to both of your Unarmed Strikes.

Daze: The target must succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw or be Dazed until the end of its next turn. A Dazed creature can Move or take an Action on its turn, not both, and cannot take a Bonus Action or Reaction.


Discombobulate: The target must succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw or be Blinded until the end of its next turn.


Fighter-
Versatile Attack

Starting at 5th level, you have gained proficiency in all manner of weapons and become an expert in many theaters of combat. You gain a Versatile Dice, a d6. Your Versatile Dice changes when your character reaches higher levels, becoming a d8 at 9th level, a d10 at 13th level, a d12 at 17th level, and 2d6 at 20th level.

Once per turn when you take the Attack action and your Attack successfully hits, you can choose to make a Versatile Attack. You can choose to use your weapon's damage die or your Versatile Dice when it makes a Versatile Attack. Your Versatile Attack has an additional Versatile effect of your choosing, which are listed below.

If a Versatile Effect requires a Saving Throw, the DC is 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Strength OR Dexterity Modifier (chosen when you achieve this feature).

Disarm: The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it drops one item of your choice that it's holding.

Trip: If the target is Large or smaller, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or have the Prone condition.

Mark: You mark the target, giving you advantage on opportunity attacks against it. Until the end of your next turn, any opportunity attacks you make against the Marked target don't expend your Reaction.

Maneuver: The target must succeed on a Strength Saving Throw. On a failure, you and the target move up to half your speed in a direction of your choosing. Neither you nor the target trigger attacks of opportunity with this movement.

Distract: The target must succeed on a Wisdom Saving Throw. On a failure, the next attack against the target by a creature other than you has Advantage.

Redirect: The target must succeed on a Dexterity Saving Throw. On a failure, it must roll your Versatile Dice and reduce the damage of its next attack by that amount. If the damage is reduced to 0 and the attack has any other features, such as a Ghoul's paralyzing claws, those features do not take effect.

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Hmm... so the Barbarian needs to be using Reckless Attack (which is dangerous but also has advantages, but probably something that a barbarian will be doing a lot anyway, and has unlimited uses), the Ranger has to have marked the target as a Favored Foe (which they can only do a limited number of times per day), a monk has to be using a Flurry of Blows (which costs a bonus action and a ki point, which they only get so many of between short rests... and it also has to be their last two attacks), Fighter has the Versatile Dice, which are either an advantage or disadvantage depending on weapon and level, and the Paladin... still sacrifices their Extra Attack. I feel like that's too heavy a price to pay for what a Steadfast Attack does. If I've got two attacks and want to do one attack's worth of damage to a guy and knock him prone, I can't help but think I'd be better off not trying to Stagger him but to Shove him to knock him prone with the first attack and then attack with the second, which will be at advantage because he's prone.

It's only as I was thinking about how the monk is spending a bonus action that I realized that I'd completely forgotten about action economy costs as an option. I'm going to blame the fact that I'm sick for blanking on that earlier.

What if you had to spend your bonus action to get one of these special effects? That would standardize the cost between different classes and the frequency with which they can be done. That way you'd be sacrificing the opportunity to do something else, but not a whole attack.

Also might want to standardize the duration by changing the "until their next turn" ones to "until your next turn" so that how much your teammates can benefit from them isn't dependent on the initiative order.

 

[Sindri the loyal]

You actually do have it! All of the rules are available online for free, legally!

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Huh, that's actually very neat and handy, might try and get my group and see what they think. Still pretty handy.

And In other news I have taken it upon myself to make the bladewing a player race for 5e, very cool bugs and I have no idea why no one decided to do a brew for them.

 

[itsbread]

Let's talk about DM Kayfabe, Tucker's Kobolds, and the dire elephant in the room:
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS HAS A LETHALITY PROBLEM
You know what I'm talking about; goblin hit-and-run tactics, midnight drow ambushes, dragon strafing runs; an awful lot of DnD monsters are miserable to fight if they're played with anything resembling intelligence. At the same time, there's a long tradition of DMs being encouraged to endow their monsters (especially the ones with high Intelligence scores) with the political nous of Michiavelli and the strategic and tactical brilliance of Sun Tzu. How, then, has this not resulted in the median experience of playing DnD consisting of a series of one-sided OC massacres? I'll get to that.

But first I need to explain what makes DnD (specifically modern, post-4th-edition DnD) so deadly.
1. It's essentially a narrative skirmish wargame without Down Mechanics
By "Down Mechanics" I mean things like Warhammer Fantasy RP's notorious Critical Damage tables, Ultraviolet Grasslands' Oracle of Death, or Ironsworn's Face Death move; mechanics that serve to mitigate the chance of actually losing a character without cheapening the impact of, for example, Gertrud the Ratcatcher getting slashed across the face by a blood-mad sellsword. Generally, these are much less deadly than they initially appear.
For example, WFRP 2e's famously gory tables are, it's true, filled with limbs being turned into "bloody ruins" or "dangling masses of bloody meat," but they're also gated behind 1. losing all your hit points; 2. the initial Critical Value Table, which uses the individual damage of each attack suffered at 0 hp to determine the actual range of critical damage available (a tough and well-armoured character can actually survive a lot of attacks at 0 hp for this reason); 3. Fate Points, which can be permanently spent to miraculously escape death and dismemberment (the cut looked worse than it was, they were only knocked unconscious, a convenient tree broke their fall). This makes the Grim and Perilous Old World somewhat less deadly, which is great if you like character development!
Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition doesn't have those, outside of some vague optional rules for permanent injury hidden deep in the Dungeon Master's Guide, between the vague optional rules for metacurrency and the rules for designing monsters that appear to have been purposely written wrong as a joke. Instead, when a Player Character falls to 0 hp, they fall unconscious and start bleeding to death, which is a problem because:
2. They made healing bad so people wouldn't be pressured to play healers
Healing is bad in 5th ed. Like, really bad. Like, the only ways to be an effective healer are either 1. busted shit like the Twilight Cleric (which can give everyone inside a bubble a steady drip of temporary hp every turn, which is really fucking good (just take my word on it)) and Healing Spirit (before they changed it to only heal a few times before vanishing) and; 2. "Yo-Yo Healing", (AKA "Chumbawumba Healing" or "Python Healing") where you cast Healing Word on an ally who's bleeding out on the cold dirt floor with 0 hp, at which point they leap to their feat, cry "'Tis but a scratch!" and get stuck in once more until someone hits them, at which point they are, once more, bleeding out on the cold dirt floor until you cast Healing Word on them and they get back up again and so on and so on. This is both really fucking stupid and a problem because:
3. It's very hard to kill Player Characters unless you want to kill them
This is not a tautology. Once 5th ed. PCs get to around 5th level, they start becoming increasingly impervious to incidental harm. Where once Bob the Fighter getting fatally shanked by goblins would have lead to - at best - a hasty retreat to the nearest temple to have him Raised, now Brother Bactine just rubs a 300 gp diamond on the corpse and Revivifies Bob on the spot.
But if the DM wants to kill the PCs stone dead, it's simplicity itself to prioritise targets and utilise the right spells to add another notch to the TPK tally. Which is bad because people can, in fact, tell when they're being played against rather than with, and you almost have to play against to kill PCs in 5th ed. Classic examples of this are Counterspelling Revivify, hitting the <100hp Wizard with Power Word Kill, and opening a bossfight by Feebleminding the Cleric. This is a problem because:
4. A lot of monsters are incredibly dangerous if the DM doesn't replace their brains with tofu
The classic case of this is of course Tucker's Kobolds (though in that case the players appeared to have had their brains replaced with tofu), but a much more recent and much less contrived example is the opening of the 5th ed. Starter Set, Lost Mine of Phandelver, where four goblins ambush the PCs on a road through a wood. Goblins, it's important to note, are not only sneaky, they can also hide without using an action, letting them, for example, attack and conceal themselves on the same turn. Now, if the goblins were allowed to use their stated intelligence of 10 (i.e. average intelligence for someone without a lump of tofu where their brain should be) they would take advantage of the terrain and their innate skill at stealth to pincushion the PCs with arrows from the trees without ever coming within reach of their swords. But since this would almost certainly lead to a Total Party Kill, instead two of the goblins "rush forward and make melee attacks" while the remaining pair of goblins "stand 30 feet away from the part and make ranged attacks," because they have tofu for brains.
For a much higher-level version of this, let's look at the grand final battle of Rise Of Tiamat, the first big high-level campaign for 5th ed. After fighting their way through a temple in the caldera of an extinct volcano, the PCs storm into Tiamat's Temple, an Abyssal nightmare brought into the mortal world by unspeakable sacrifices, the centre of a hideous ritual to bring the Queen of Dragons into the waking world and bring about an era of endless tyranny blah blah blah it's a big deal. Anyway, there are nine nameless Red Wizards performing the summoning rite led by Rath Modar, a big-deal Red Wizard. Also there's a guy who's really just hanging around not doing much.
If at least five Red Wizards don't spend their action performing the ritual two rounds in a row (remember this), the ritual will be disrupted. Now, if Rath Modar and his backup dancers don't have heads full of tofu and are instead played according to their character blurbs and stats, what's going to happen is the PCs are going to barge into the ritual chamber and cry "Have at you, foul varlet!" to which Rath Modar will reply with an ice pun and casting Globe of Invulnerability (which, for those of you who don't care about high-level DnD (and who does?) creates a 20-foot-wide immaterial globe that makes everyone inside it invulnerable to spells below 5th level, even if they're cast with a higher-level spell slot). Then the Red Wizards and that one guy will pile into the fuck-your-magic-zone and blast the PCs with Cones of Cold, which has pretty good odds of killing the entire player party unless they 1. had the foresight to cast Globe of Invulnerability with a 7th-level spell slot or 2. cast Antimagic Field (which is to say, if they didn't pick the right spells, they're fucked). And the Red Wizards can go back to doing the ritual on the next round, and on the round after that they can all Fireball the PCs.

All these things together mean that if DMs don't play monsters like they've got tofu for brains, PCs will drop like flies and stay dropped, which is bad because modern DnD is primarily a game about creating OCs and thinking about how cool they could be, which is hard to do when all four members of The Powerful Five (Princess Raven Way, Fux Hughly, Captain Caricature, and Gh'ei Bey't) are lying on the the ground in pools of their own blood.

Fortunately, Modern DMs have developed a couple of techniques for avoiding this unfortunate situation.
1. Throwing fights
This encompasses but isn't limited to playing monsters like they've had their brains replaced with tofu; it also covers miraculous rescues and just straight-up fudging the numbers (*rolls behind screen* "phew, he just misses you."). The other players will inevitably begin to catch on, which neccessitates:
2. DM Kayfabe
Kayfabe is pro-wrestling lingo meaning "Acting," specifically acting as though you really do put on tiny shiny shorts to go hit and be hit with a steel chair in deadly serious martial arts matches. In this context, DM Kayfabe is when the DM acts as though they really are trying to totally destroy your precious Player Characters in deadly serious elfgame combat when in actual fact they are having difficulty rolling the dice because of the pillows they've strapped to their fists. This is at least half the reason that there's so much fucking Evil Killer Dungeon Master merchandise - you know, shirts with Beware The Smiling Dungeon Master on and fucking, dice with skulls on them and shit (the other half is mostly actual shit DMs who think killing PCs makes them hot shit and not essentially a bored, vindictive Sims player). This would be all well and good except for the Suplex Problem.

The Suplex Problem is that, much like the popular wrestling maneuvre, it's possible to perform Killer Dungeonmastery unassisted, which often leads to hurt feelings, shredded character sheets, and broken-up DnD groups. In fact, it's really easy, often starting when some dumb teenage DM looks at a premade villain's statblock and spell-list and says "Well, this doesn't make any sense. Why would a brilliant wizard like Mitch the Malevolent pick Cone of Cold for his 5th-level spell when he could pick Wall of Force?" Because as soon as you start endowing your antagonistic NPCs with brains not made of tofu, their effective deadliness ratchets up massively (remember, tactics as simple as "casting their best blasting spell from maximum effective range" and "shooting the healer first" are enough to seriously endanger PC parties).

Unfortunately, all these problems are basically fundamental to post-4th-edition DnD, and "fixing" them would require rebuilding the game almost from the ground up.

 

[The Laurent]

I admit the assumption that he'd definitely have globe of invulnerability up and ready and have an elaborate strategy for being disrupted doesn't... necessarily sound much better?

Like, the goblin example honestly seems better, tbh.

 

[RiverDelta]

I think, just as someone who hasn't played DND for years, I would have Mitch the Wizard be prepared with whatever spells he would logically have if he didn't think he'd attacked but considered that he might be in a deeply unlikely situation (like an "everyday carry", as long as he's the type who would have a magic EDC). So, maybe one or two "big" effects. If he knows the PCs are coming, then you can have him go full min-maxer.

 

[itsbread]

This is the problem, though? It's not actually an elaborate strategy, it's a brick-stupid alphastrike, it's "everyone hit those do-gooders with your Cones of Cold!"

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

This is the problem, though? It's not actually an elaborate strategy, it's a brick-stupid alphastrike, it's "everyone hit those do-gooders with your Cones of Cold!"

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If you're running the Red Wizards as a hivemind they might be able to react with that much coordination, but a cursory check shows they're split up into five groups across a huge space (150+ feet between each pair of them), so the Globe of Invulnerability cheese presupposes they've been told to, at the first sign of trouble, abandon the ritual, turn, run and leap towards the center of a huge room, misty step next to their boss, and then wait a round to cast their Cone of Cold barrage. Two rounds of preparation will leave probably half (at least) of those squishy 20 AC (with Shield) 40 HP Mages dead at a level 15 party's hands with barely any resources expended, assuming the party is being polite and doesn't have a Druid flooding the area with 24 Flying Snakes, or that a Greater Invisibility Rogue hasn't started the fight by gutting Rath and nearly killing his mere 71 HP self (who, hilariously, has no way at all to detect Invisible creatures aside from Detect Thoughts, which would be a great use of his turn). Speaking of, all the Red Wizards just casting Greater Invisibility on themselves would be infinitely more troublesome for a 15th level party, assuming it's somehow something they're not used to after an entire campaign of tangling with Red Wizards and haven't prepared anti-invisibility measures.

Basically, this seems like a highly theoretical and entirely impracticable thought experiment. True, five enemies casting Cone of Cold on any party of any level is problematic: when those five enemies could theoretically be taken out by a 6th Level Dispel Magic and a 5th Level Fireball, a non-significant resource for a 15th level party, it's significantly less problematic.

 

[itsbread]

Okay, yes, yes, all that shit is true, but you're kinda missing my point which is that even the most basic of tactics can be a real threat to a party of any level. Like, a Big Villain yelling "Hey, everybody use your best damage spells on those guys!" isn't exactly 4-d chess, but it stands a good chance of just fucking splatting characters who, like, rolled badly on Initiative. Which is why I say you have to play monsters like they have tofu for brains if you don't want to kill your PCs.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

Okay, yes, yes, all that shit is true, but you're kinda missing my point which is that even the most basic of tactics can be a real threat to a party of any level. Like, a Big Villain yelling "Hey, everybody use your best damage spells on those guys!" isn't exactly 4-d chess, but it stands a good chance of just fucking splatting characters who, like, rolled badly on Initiative. Which is why I say you have to play monsters like they have tofu for brains if you don't want to kill your PCs.

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If your players have tofu for brains, yes, this is true. It's best practice for DM's to match their bad guys tactics to their players tactics, because most ttrpg players are not tactical masterminds, or, barring that, have never played XCOM, and it's not actually fun to just die over and over again until you learn how to play the game, especially when DnD is such a slow game when new players are involved. It's especially not fun to get scry'd and died unless the players explicitly signed up for that sort of experience.

The best you can do is steadily ramp things up to teach players what they should be worried about so that bad guys can deploy more advanced tactics in the future, which will be more fun for the both of you. When you hit level 8, you should know that you need to counterspell that magic missile aimed at your downed party member, but on the other hand... the goblins act stupid because it's an adventure made for people who've never played DnD before; if you want enemies with a meat-grinder mindset, you can play Tomb of Annihilation, where the hags in the titular tomb are explicitly written to hit and run from the Ethereal Plane, which I can tell you from experience is a bitch and a half. This is the joy of collaborative storytelling.

 

[itsbread]

Again, it's not "advanced tactics" to have Mitch the Malevolent stand about 165 feet away lobbing fireballs while his fiendish (and thus, y'know, immune to fire damage) minions engage the PCs in hand-to-hand combat. Like, I think the issue is that you and I have very different definitions of what constitutes tofu, which is fine, but it's part of what makes modern DnD so deadly precisely because what constitutes the tactical "floor," if you will, differs wildly from table to table.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

Again, it's not "advanced tactics" to have Mitch the Malevolent stand about 165 feet away lobbing fireballs while his fiendish (and thus, y'know, immune to fire damage) minions engage the PCs in hand-to-hand combat. Like, I think the issue is that you and I have very different definitions of what constitutes tofu, which is fine, but it's part of what makes modern DnD so deadly precisely because what constitutes the tactical "floor," if you will, differs wildly from table to table.

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I'll be honest, I'm still bemused to see modern DnD referred to as "deadly." Like, most modules make allowances for TPK's (like that goblin one you listed earlier, where they explicitly capture the PC's instead of killing them if they're all brought down), and Death Saves make permanently killing a player a hassle. Even once they're dead, almost every party will have Revivify on hand, and most that are up against people with say, Disintegration will be on the cusp of or have access to NPC's with True Resurrection or Wish. And again, you're proposing white room scenarios that rarely if ever come up in any game. Mitch the Malevolent is somehow 165 feet away with minions who are immune to fire damage up in the party's face? Sounds like a Tier 2-3 Challenge, so I'd be shocked if ol Mitchy isn't getting Sharpshooted by a +1 or +2 Longbow and having his guts spill out since he's stupid enough to be in such an open area. Most parties have the hint of common sense to avoid wide open areas if it's disadvantageous to them.

But then, we could iterate on this scenario. Maybe Mitch is down a 200 foot corridor covered in pillars, and he takes full cover every time he shoots off his Fireball. And he's under Greater Invisibility too, maybe. And he's a Twilight Cleric with 300 feet of Darkvision so he doesn't care too much about the lighting situation. Even with all that, the party needs to both be trapped in this place and have a time limit to keep them from just fucking off and leaving the killzone and coming back with the proper preparations. Not every fight is or should be to the death, and placing players in challenging situations that are interesting is not the same as putting them in challenging situations that are lethal. This maxim applies to all fiction, not just ttrpg's.

 

[itsbread]

What do you mean;

Most parties have the hint of common sense to avoid wide open areas if it's disadvantageous to them.

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Do PCs in your DnD just never go outside? Are they moles? Like, I'm not even gonna address the rest of that 'cause clearly we just have different ideas of what constitutes "Deadly," and what constitutes a "white room scenario," but what do you mean;

Most parties have the hint of common sense to avoid wide open areas if it's disadvantageous to them.

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I mean, don't they ever go to the contextually-implausible general goods store? Do they not travel, on roads, to places? Do they not make camp or rent a room at an inn at night? Or am I just not running in the right circles to know that any sensible DnD party invests their gold in an armoured magical wagon that they drive everywhere, or, or, or, whatever?
Like, seriously, how are your PCs so rarely in a wide open space that you're skeptical that they might get fireballed from maximum range? I'm not being snarky or anything, I'm genuinely interested in how they conduct their day-to-day business such that this could almost never happen.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

What do you mean;

Do PCs in your DnD just never go outside? Are they moles? Like, I'm not even gonna address the rest of that 'cause clearly we just have different ideas of what constitutes "Deadly," and what constitutes a "white room scenario," but what do you mean;

I mean, don't they ever go to the contextually-implausible general goods store? Do they not travel, on roads, to places? Do they not make camp or rent a room at an inn at night? Or am I just not running in the right circles to know that any sensible DnD party invests their gold in an armoured magical wagon that they drive everywhere, or, or, or, whatever?
Like, seriously, how are your PCs so rarely in a wide open space that you're skeptical that they might get fireballed from maximum range? I'm not being snarky or anything, I'm genuinely interested in how they conduct their day-to-day business such that this could almost never happen.

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When they do travel on open roads, they're rarely running into random encounters that involve 5th or higher level Spellcasters. That's uncommon in most settings, to say the least. Even extremely deadly open area encounters in a game like Icewind Dale (currently running) are giants (rocks), dragons (dragons), and wildlife, and two of those are much better solved through socializing than violence. And by the time a party could be purposefully hunted in the wilderness by 5th level and higher spellcasters... they're probably just getting everywhere with teleportation?

 

[The Laurent]

...I am now understanding why Pathfinder 2e is (as of two weeks from now) moving to calling them "Spell ranks" because otherwise 5th level gets me confused, because there's both class levels and spell levels in 5e.

 

[itsbread]

...I am now understanding why Pathfinder 2e is (as of two weeks from now) moving to calling them "Spell ranks" because otherwise 5th level gets me confused, because there's both class levels and spell levels in 5e.

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It is immensely confusing for no good reason, isn't it?

When they do travel on open roads, they're rarely running into random encounters that involve 5th or higher level Spellcasters.

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Okay, I think I get where we've been talking past one another. You're treating Mitch the Malevolent as being essentially the Mage statblock (a 9th-level Wizard with 5th-level spells) where I've been using him as a vague example of "guy who can cast fireball a couple of times," which can be as low as level 5 and CR 2.

 

[Arawn_Emrys]

Honestly, most stuff is written with the assumption that the baddies don't know that the players are coming. This is why they have sub-par spell choices and positioning at the start of the fight, they may even be shocked enough that they have bad tactics in the first round. Villains who are written expecting the players are intended to be a pain. Strahd is the perfect example. In the first several editions he appears in, he's meant to be a tremendous problem to fight. He's supposed to use his superior mobility and knowledge of the secret passages in the castle to repeated appear and disappear, inflicting damage or debuffs every time to wear down party resources until they finally locate the appointed location (which in editions 1-2 was chosen randomly by the DM using a deck of cards, so that there was no way for the players to know in advance.

Of course that assumes that the players didn't do something to alert them and then take a rest to recover their abilities. because in cases like that I'd say they deserve what they get.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

Okay, I think I get where we've been talking past one another. You're treating Mitch the Malevolent as being essentially the Mage statblock (a 9th-level Wizard with 5th-level spells) where I've been using him as a vague example of "guy who can cast fireball a couple of times," which can be as low as level 5 and CR 2.

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Yeah, I meant "As low as level 5." Even that level of spellcaster is an unusual random encounter; most casters of that proficiency are part of an existing organization. It's not something that doesn't happen (my party ran into a Frost Druid at level 3 in my Icewind Dale game, who promptly Ice Storm'd one of them and fucked off seeing how outnumbered she was), but it's very uncommon. Hence my White Room statement.

 

[itsbread]

Of course that assumes that the players didn't do something to alert them and then take a rest to recover their abilities. because in cases like that I'd say they deserve what they get.

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OH, HERE WE GO, TALKING ABOUT "ACTIONS HAVING CONSEQUENCES" AND "ONLY IDIOTS WOULD REST IN A DUNGEON."
But seriously, I hate this mindset. It's not only contrary to how the actual game is designed, it's contrary to PCs not acting like deranged speedrunner lemmings. Like, point one; unless your entire party is comprised of fantasy Sam Fisher Clones, you're gonna make loud noises or get spotted by a guard or do something that puts the dungeon's denizens on their guard. And point two: once this has happened, it's extremely easy for players to find themselves in a no-win situation where if they don't rest or retreat, they're gonna get fucking wrecked (because DnD 5th ed. assumes that PCs will rest in dungeons), and if they do rest or retreat they're gonna get fucking wrecked in a different location because fucking Aargh The Bugbear got the rest of his dungeon buddies together and began his attack by knocking Brother Bactine's entire head off.

 

[Saidoro]

2. They made healing bad so people wouldn't be pressured to play healers
Healing is bad in 5th ed. Like, really bad. Like, the only ways to be an effective healer are either 1. busted shit like the Twilight Cleric (which can give everyone inside a bubble a steady drip of temporary hp every turn, which is really fucking good (just take my word on it)) and Healing Spirit (before they changed it to only heal a few times before vanishing) and; 2. "Yo-Yo Healing", (AKA "Chumbawumba Healing" or "Python Healing") where you cast Healing Word on an ally who's bleeding out on the cold dirt floor with 0 hp, at which point they leap to their feat, cry "'Tis but a scratch!" and get stuck in once more until someone hits them, at which point they are, once more, bleeding out on the cold dirt floor until you cast Healing Word on them and they get back up again and so on and so on. This is both really fucking stupid and a problem because:

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This is just a personal opinion, but I absolutely think that spending an action to heal someone in combat being almost always a bad idea is a good thing, actually. I enjoy healing a lot in real time games, and support roles in pretty much any format, but in a turn based system "Alice attacks Bob for 10 damage then Bob heals himself for 10 damage and we're back where we started" is a profoundly boring interaction even in a single player game where you're controlling a whole party. Leave healing as a resource management minigame done between fights and an occasional cool move pulled in special circumstances.

Though I do agree that Healing Word is its whole own flavor of bullshit, something like the PF2e wounds system would be a very good addition to future versions.

...I am now understanding why Pathfinder 2e is (as of two weeks from now) moving to calling them "Spell ranks" because otherwise 5th level gets me confused, because there's both class levels and spell levels in 5e.

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I've always preferred "spell circles", personally.

 

[Arawn_Emrys]

OH, HERE WE GO, TALKING ABOUT "ACTIONS HAVING CONSEQUENCES" AND "ONLY IDIOTS WOULD REST IN A DUNGEON."
But seriously, I hate this mindset. It's not only contrary to how the actual game is designed, it's contrary to PCs not acting like deranged speedrunner lemmings. Like, point one; unless your entire party is comprised of fantasy Sam Fisher Clones, you're gonna make loud noises or get spotted by a guard or do something that puts the dungeon's denizens on their guard. And point two: once this has happened, it's extremely easy for players to find themselves in a no-win situation where if they don't rest or retreat, they're gonna get fucking wrecked (because DnD 5th ed. assumes that PCs will rest in dungeons), and if they do rest or retreat they're gonna get fucking wrecked in a different location because fucking Aargh The Bugbear got the rest of his dungeon buddies together and began his attack by knocking Brother Bactine's entire head off.

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If the PCs in 5th do not have the resources needed, perhaps they should do something about that, like bringing back "scale by level" spells to keep low level slots more relevant, and doubling to tripling the slots per day to bring it back on par with older editions.

 

[The Narrator]

Unfortunately, all these problems are basically fundamental to post-4th-edition DnD, and "fixing" them would require rebuilding the game almost from the ground up.

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The wildly-unpredictable lethality isn't new to 5E. It was present in pre-4E editions of the game as well. There have always been spells and monster powers that were deadly or debilitating far in excess of what their Challenge Rating would imply, and it's always been much too easy to end up suddenly dead due to some bad luck. That's why the game has so many ways to resurrect the dead.

If the PCs in 5th do not have the resources needed, perhaps they should do something about that, like bringing back "scale by level" spells to keep low level slots more relevant, and doubling to tripling the slots per day to bring it back on par with older editions.

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That would also increase the spellcasting powers of the enemy mage--who always gets to start the fight with full resources because it's the only fight that he's having that day--by an even greater amount, thereby making the problem worse. The absolute last thing that this game needs is to make the unbalanced, overpowered spellcasting classes even more powerful. Spellcasters are, if anything, stronger in 5E than they were in 3E, with prepared casters getting to behave like spontaneous casters, spells that are cast as a bonus action or reaction letting them cast two or even three spells in a round, and spells granting bonuses that are massive compared to what PCs can usually achieve. Meanwhile, martials have been pretty solidly nerfed in 5E, with slow progression due to bounded accuracy, half or less as many skills, far less feats (that you have to sacrifice your ability score increases to get), and hard limits on how many magic items they can have via limited attunement slots.

 

[Leila Hann]

I think 4e had the best healing paradigm. Healing effects are very powerful, but there's a limit to how many times any one character can be healed in a day. Killing someone in combat is rare, but if the DM wants to play these bad guys as brutal they can have them coup de grace unconscious PC's if the other characters don't take care to protect the fallen.