mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You don't actually need a rough population figure on the size of Sigil. It's not super important.
Dungeons and Dragons Megathread
- Thread starter Havocfett
- Start date
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Okay, switching to a different planar conversation: Because of Planescape everyone knows about Sigil and the Great Wheel. I assume everyone knows enough about Spelljammer to gt how it handled planar cosmologies and I think everyone knows a bit about 4e's World axis cosmology, even if it is just in the context of how it changed everything.
What other cosmologies exist in D&D that are worth looking at? I've been meaning to look further into how Eberron handles it for a while, but I have no idea about any other system.
What other cosmologies exist in D&D that are worth looking at? I've been meaning to look further into how Eberron handles it for a while, but I have no idea about any other system.
- Location
- Somewhere
Forgotten Realms in 3e had it's World Tree cosmology. And I think Kara Tur had a unique one but it never got fleshed out.
Outer planes are "branches" inner planes are "roots"
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I am not clear on the details, but Rules Cyclopedia adjacent material (EDIT: Mystara cosmology then) had some cosmology involving the different planes existing adjacently as different orientations in a 5-dimensional(?) space. So if you faced a specific direction three specific axes on the five-dimensional plane would effectively form the ethereal plane or whatever.
It has been a long time since I read up on that, it very well might have been something more sensible. (EDITEDIT: I can not find anything about it with a cursory search, will come back if I find a clearer explanation. I dunno, maybe it was a delusional fever dream.)
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shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Okay, pathfinder 2e stupid thing I don't get. When attacking with Ray of Frost or Shocking Grasp I'm fairly certain you're effectively attacking with dex and your spell proficiency. But the spell sheet has a spell roll box at the top of the page which implies that spells are rolled with your spellcasting modifier.
Which is it?
Which is it?
Eberron's cosmology doesn't have a formal name, but basically it's an orbital system, where the main plane, Eberron, is orbited by 13 others, a bit like a solar system.
Additionally, there's one more plane- the Underdark equivalent, Khyber, contained within Eberron, is it's own separate plane. This has to do with the cosmology origin- three dragons made everything. Or rather, Siberys made most of the planes, Khyber went around destroying them (the 13 are what's left) and ultimately fought and killed Siberys, and then Eberron attacked Khyber, defeated it, wrapped around it, and formed the plane/world Eberron physically surrounding the plane of Khyber.
The thirteen planes are often quite similar to the Great Wheel one, but they're more... places with environments, rather than pure representations. Rather than an elemental plane of fire, there's "Fernia, the Sea of Fire," which is, well, a sea of fire. A lot of stuff associated with the planes of fire there, but the City of Brass is a literal floating city, there's floating masses of ash or debris that serve as temporary ground, and such (it'd be really easy to imagine ships traveling and fighting on the sea of fire). Daanvi, the Perfect Order and Kythri, the Churning Chaos, are, well, not actually perfect chaos or order, and the most common inhabitants in each are Formians and Slaadi (oh, and neraphim are included in Slaadi- less killy, more nomadic, usable-as-adventurers types_- and they're, like, 'the species that do well there,' rather than the more exemplar-ish ones like Inevitables. So even though I'm not a fan of 'Slaad, the exemplars of Limbo!' in planescape, I am ok with 'Slaad, one of the species that do pretty well in the plane aligned with chaos, which has a lot of stuff.' Which fits with Eberron's alignments, where any species is at most 'usually X,' and there is no 'always X'.
Angels come from... the plane of air, Syrania the Azure Sky. Archons, Devils, and Demons, all come from the same place, Shavarath the Battleground. And a lot of types are on multiple planes (Devils are from various places, but fitting ones. Succubi are from Mabar the plane of night much more than Shavarth). It's kinda cool how they mix things up, though that said, only three of them really have noteworthy focus.
Another major factor of the orbiting planes is their influence waxes and wanes with their orbits- the closer they are, the easier it is to summon stuff, the more distant, the harder, and further they affect the environment. When closer things get more chaotic/lawful/hot/cold/etc.. There also exist 'manifest zones,' where the planes actively overlap and conditions on Eberron can be a lot like those of the planes.
The three planes with focus are Khyber the underdark, of course, home of the Rakshasa who once ruled the surface of Eberron and wish to again (the Couatl sacrificed themselves to trap the Rakshasa Rajahs, the big fiend lords of the setting), Xoriat the Realm of Madness, which is where the aberrations and lovecrafting stuff hangs out and was blasted by great magic back in the day giving it a very long orbit and making it very distant, with magical seals keeping it so, but Xoriat looks to undo those seals so it can invade Eberron again. Then there's Dal Quor, the Realm of Dreams, which was totally thrown from it's orbit in the distant past, and can only be reached via dreams and alone has no manifest zones... and has an incredibly influence none the less, because while summoning one of the Quori who live there is out, they used their dreams and manipulations to create people they could possess much easier than most, the Inspired/Empty Vessels, who rule the country of Riedra which controls the continent of Sarlona.
So, short version, less absolute planes, most of them orbit with variable influence on the plane, lovecraftian Xoriat wants to invade, Khyber's fiends wish to rise up and take over, dreamy Dal Quor manipulates.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I'd have to spend some quality time with the rulebook to make sure, and I can't really do that for the next few hours. I know that there are some mistakes on the character sheets, but it could also be that there are some things you use spell modifier for, or I coould just be straight up wrong about spell attacks.
A few things;Eberron's cosmology doesn't have a formal name, but basically it's an orbital system, where the main plane, Eberron, is orbited by 13 others, a bit like a solar system.
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So, short version, less absolute planes, most of them orbit with variable influence on the plane, lovecraftian Xoriat wants to invade, Khyber's fiends wish to rise up and take over, dreamy Dal Quor manipulates.
I've heard this version called "Orrery", since it's based on the planets' orbits.
And there are planets, the Planes are named after and IIRC connected to the planets.
Also Eberron has Siberys, which is the golden ring around the planet, which is actually the shattered remnants of one of the planets moons.
Also Eberron's moon are all metaphysically connected to one of the other Planes.
Also the Rakshasa Rajahs are not necessarily Rakshasa themselves, among their number are theoretically included Lolth and Tiamat, they are called that because they are the Rajahs of the Rakshasa.
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- Location
- Somewhere
God I hate Ebberron. It's like someone went through earlier edition d&d, grabbed a bunch of the names of stuff, and randomly slapped them on other things.
Rakshasa Rajah: a subspecies of Rakshasa having 8HD, and the casting ability of an 8th level wizard and a 6th level priest, but casting these spells as if 11th level. comprising 15% of the "greater rakshasa" population. Tend to rule clans of lesser rakshasa
Or
Any evil god.
Underdark: the massive subterranean network beneath the surface of the planet Toril, noted for magical radiation that fucks with divination and teleportation
Or
Another plane.
Like in 4th where Ioun went from a male wizard on FR to a female deity from the generic setting.
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Yes, you repeatedly comment on the fact that you hate most things related to modern and even semi-modern D&D.
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Also, Khyber is both the normal Underdark and the
Also also, the "Rakshasa Rajah" is a generic name meant to include all the rulers/leaders of the Rakshasa and the various gribblies that have been sealed away.
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Oh yes, Orrery does sound familiar!
Yea, the Rajah are pretty varied. There's a fair bit more one can get into
4ed, additionally, made some changes- Baator is shoehorned in there (dunno why they added just one, struck me as pointless. I think they just wanted to add Asmodeus), and the planes are each associated with a primordial dragon. Most, Siberys, for the 'going around creating planes' reason (Baator included, btw). Dal Quor, Dolurrh (originally the realm of death, now also associated with the shadowfell, though even still it's not that much like the classic shadowfell), and Thelanis (originally the Faerie Court, now the Feywild... so yea, no change there), are associated with Eberron- indeed, even the creepy dream plane. The fire plane, ice plane, and Kythri, the chaotic plane, get associated with Khyber- or in other words, they tie the ones most like the Elemental Chaos from 4ed to Khyber, the ones associated with the material plane to Eberron, and the ones in the 4ed Astral Sea to Siberys.
Honestly it strikes me as a bit pointless, and the grouping doesn't really add anything and clash a bit with Siberys making the planes/Khyber wrecking them. Though one cool thing they *did* do to add in 4ed Eladrin is have Feyspires from Thelanis go from being transient ala the norm for periods of planar crossover, to just stuck in the material as a result of the Day of Mourning. Which adds to the mystery and consequences of the Morning, and adds in Eladrin in a pretty smooth fashion.
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- Location
- Somewhere
So sorry I offend you by wishing that they could just show some originality and make new names for stuff.
Yeah, most of the 4E stuff involving Eberron was pointless shoe-horning to make the setting "fit", including wrecking the narratives of the then-ongoing novel series.
- Location
- Somewhere
Iirc the 3e manual of the planes also presented a couple theoretical alternate cosmologies too
- Location
- Land of the Midday Sun
It presented both some extra planes (Dream Region, Plane of Mirrors, etc.) that you can fit into most cosmologies and some alternate cosmologies. Well, more like alternate planar dispositions that you can use with the canonical planes or any homebrewed one, but still.
There are 3 cosmologies presented:
- The Winding Road: Each Plane borders 2 other Planes, the Astral and the Shadow Plane. Each plane also has its own Ethereal, but each one isn't connected to the others. In practice the Planes are connected like beads on a string, and you have to move through each one of them to reach the next. No plane skipping, not even with portals. The Shadow Plane is presented as an altrenative path, but you still can't skip planes. Since the organization is very simple there isn't distinction between Inner, Outer or Material Plane, you just have a sequence of planes with they traits. If you want a literal roadtrip through the Planes it's not a bad disposition.
- Doppel Cosmology: There's 2 Material Planes, connected by the Plane of Shadows (but not the Ethereal). One is Good, the other is Evil, and they're kind of mirrored, so the events in one have a corresponding event on the other. Same with people. The rest is the same as the Great Wheel/whatever you want to use for the rest of the Planes. Not very imaginative TBH and of course it focus only on the Material, but if you want to do a "sent to parallel universe" adventure it's fine.
- Myriad Planes: Intead of having your Planes fit into a rigid structure, each single Plane moves around, becoming coexistent (like the Ethereal with the Material in the standard cosmology) with some Planes and losing connections with others as time goes on. Every Plane is finite by necessity, but inhabited Panes grow and abandoned ones shrink until they disappear. Planes can also merge to give birth to a larger one with more or less averaged traits, but Planes with opposite traits can't merge at all. The cosmology doesn't feature the Astral Plane, but there are Planes that connect many others and can be used similarly. To move to another Plane you have to use spells like etherealness and the like, since the Planes are coexistent, but you can use them multiple times to move to other coexistent Planes.
- The Orrery: You have you Material, Inner, and Transitive Planes as normal, but withouth the Positive/Negative energy ones. The Inner Planes are disposed like in the Great Wheel, but the Material Plane is slightly off-center. This means that the Material becomes closer to each of the Inner during the year, and this influences the seasons and the magic of the Plane. You have then 4 main Outer Planes (called Ascendant, alignments respectively LG/CG/LE/CE) that are close to the Material in the 3 days of an equinox/solstice, and a load of other minor Outer Planes that slowly become closer/farther with some periodicity. If you imagine the Solar System with the Material orbiting close to the center, the Inner Planes in fixed positions and the Outers in various orbits around this core then you're very close. The revolving centre of the cosmology is a demiplane called the Observatorium, which is of course hidden to all and has the usual "if you control this plane you can control the universe" thing going on. You also have the Plane called Nemesis, which comes every thousand of years and brings ruin to all and all that jazz. The Transitive work as normal, but during the equibox/solstice you can use teleport and the like to move to the Plane close to the Material in that period.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
It looks like spell rolls are used for different rolls, rather than for making spell attacks. Sort of like a caster level check in PF1.
Article: Spell Roll You make a spell roll when you're testing the power of your magic against a particular target. Your spell roll modifier is equal to your proficiency modifier plus your key ability modifier, as well as any other bonuses and penalties (though these are quite rare). Many of your spells will call for saving throws against your spell DC (10 plus your spell roll modifier).
Let's see, other uses... Black Tentacles uses spell roll for the grapple check. Illusory Creature uses your spell roll for attacks and saves. Telekinetic Maneuver uses your spell roll to perform a combat maneuver. That's all the ones I could find by searching the PDF for "spell roll" and it's a lot less than I would have expected.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Orrery, a model of the solar system actually.
Iounn is the nordic goddess that keeps the golden apples, not some male wizard from the forgotten realms. Jeeze, I wish Ed Greenwood would have some originality rather than mindlessly copy real world mythology.
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- Somewhere
That's generally anglicized as Idun actually. Rather different. If you want to hit him for stealing gods, go after the ones he directly ripped off like Tyr, Oghma, and the entire Egyptian pantheon.Orrery, a model of the solar system actually.
Iounn is the nordic goddess that keeps the golden apples, not some male wizard from the forgotten realms. Jeeze, I wish Ed Greenwood would have some originality rather than mindlessly copy real world mythology.
I have no idea how that typo happened.That's less "ripping off the Egyptian Pantheon" and more "the Egyptian Pantheon chased after their worshippers when they were abducted from Earth".
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- Somewhere
And the Babylonian one too. Ogma's celtic, Tyr's norse, and the ranger goddess with the unspellable name is Finnish iirc.
That's less "ripping off the Egyptian Pantheon" and more "the Egyptian Pantheon chased after their worshippers when they were abducted from Earth".
But that's directly bringing in those deities.
LordInsane
Loyalist to the Alvarian Merchant's Guild
- Location
- Bohuslän, Occupied Norway
Mielikki is a bit tricky to not spell wrong at some point, yes. Loviatar's Finnish too.
- Location
- Somewhere
Of course Toril is supposed to be a planet with a shit ton of crossovers. It's one planet with 4 official campaign settings on it.
LordInsane
Loyalist to the Alvarian Merchant's Guild
- Location
- Bohuslän, Occupied Norway
IIRC Hordelands was technically its own imprint, so four-and-a-half.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
I've seen it both ways. And I don't want to break down all the ways in which Forgotten Realms ripped things off from mythology or even Greyhawk to make it's world because every d&d setting does that. You just give Forgotten Realms a pass because it came first.
Maybe that was more original in the 90's but now it just seems like a bit of lore that'll never come up and isn't even needed to justify the gods being present anyway.
That's less "ripping off the Egyptian Pantheon" and more "the Egyptian Pantheon chased after their worshippers when they were abducted from Earth".
Though I do hate Sharess for thoroughly not being Bast at all. (Yes Bast was 'created' when Sekhmet got super drunk, but before that Sekhmet was a murder-blender incarnation of Ra's wrath that everyone was scared of and Bast remained a goddess of warfare and protection).
Notably Sharess' Aspect is radically different depending on what country you are in and IIRC what point in the timeline it is.
Because outside of her earth-descended worshippers the people of Faerûn tend to just...ignore what she was originally.
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