Point taken, however I'm talking specifically about not attacking capes in their civilian identity. even if there's no punishment/retaliation other than other capes will also feel free to attack you in your civilian identity if you attack someone in their civilian identity...that is what I've been talking about, not anything more than that.

Basically if Taylor/Sunny attack E88 capes civilian identity, the E88 is not going to hold back from attacking Taylor's home/civilian identity.
Demanding an explanation for cape culture in Worm is like demanding an explanation for keeping magic secret in Harry Potter. This is the way the world works, at least in the setting. The author is making the assumption that if super powers exist, a system of masked vigilantism would inevitably become the norm in Western culture. As the reader, you are asked to suspend your disbelief by allowing the author to make that leap in logic. If you insist on questioning every detail then you will inevitably run into a wall. The author can only do so much world building.

Even if the UR were explicitly enforced, it only pushes the problem one step father back. Why do villains willingly follow the rules? Why do heroes? If they fear retaliation why do they not take steps X, Y, and Z? If it is Cauldron shenanigans why did they not do A instead of B?

At a certain point you need to stop asking why events happen in a fictional world and instead and derive meaning from events which you assume are logical consistent with the narrative.
 
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To be honest, it sounds more like the "Unwritten Rules" was introduced to reduce the options Taylor/Skitter had. But to make things even worse for Taylor, of course, nobody else actually needed to follow said rules, and there was zero actual fallout from breaking them for anyone other than Taylor/Skitter. Typical thing most players would cry 'Foul' over.
*cough*Youth Guard*cough*
 
I think we are all forgetting a very crucial thing right here. Does Hookwolf even know about the 'Good Dog' crisis that both ABB and the PRT are dealing with. Are any of the other gangs at all in the know about this mystical force at work in their town?
Hookwolf probably doesn't Kaiser however knows, or will soon find out.

Demanding an explanation for cape culture in Worm is like demanding an explanation for keeping magic secret in Harry Potter.
Good analogy - both have pretty good (superficially at least) explanations, the unwritten rules for Worm and theStaute of secrecy/obliviators for harry potter and removing them from the setting without any other changes makes no sense.
 
I think a lot of people tend to conflate the Unwritten Rules with the Endbringer Truce, which is enforced and harshly.

Thinking back, I tend to wonder if the Unwritten Rules apply the most as an agreement between villains, because they're the ones most likely to try and shank one another. We do see an application of it in that they have a neutral territory in the form of Somer's Rock. The only time we see the UR in play between villains and heroes is Kaiser punishing his subordinate for shanking Fleur, and I hold it as an anomaly because Kaiser is also very concerned about keeping up appearances as more 'civilized' than his peers.

There's honestly more evidence for the UR being broken in Worm than there are examples of keeping it. New Wave vs. Marquis and Oni Lee come to mind-- remember how one of those rules was about no killing? Yeah... if that is a thing then why do we have a suicide bomber?
Kaiser shanking a subordinate is fanon. The only detail we have is that a female core member of New Wave was killed by a criminal who tracked down their civilian ID. No details beyond that.
 
...With regards to the Unwritten Rules- it's just Tattletale's explanation, and keep in mind it is basically her used car salesman pitch to get Taylor to sign on with robbing a bank with her. After Tattletale was blackmailed in her civilian identity by Coil. She knows full well it's not exactly a universally agreed-upon set of rules, and in fact she is leading Taylor to a situation where she's easily blackmailed by somebody who does not follow those rules. In short, Tattletale is a liar, and while she doesn't want Taylor to kill herself that doesn't mean she's a real friend.

That said, from a certain point of view it's logical. Police don't harass people without evidence because they have to follow the law. Criminals don't harass police in their civilian lives or kill cops wantonly because it's liable to have consequences. You could call those Unwritten Rules and say police are 'playing cops and robbers', but it is the same line of bullshit a drug dealer trying to recruit a mule would use. It intentionally trivializes consequences.

All kidding aside, it's a set of guidelines I could see falling into place given the risks of apprehending parahumans in their civilian identity on the part of the Protectorate, and the risks of acquiring a kill order or visit from the Triumverate on the part of the villains. It's not exactly fair to the victims of a parahuman, but a lot of things in life aren't fair.

It's a very deceptive set of 'rules' however, and more a description of a tenuous balance of power that capes like Uber and Leet rely on against authorities than any real protection. Lung follows the rules only as they suit him, and if Armsmaster can fit his arrest of a criminal within the actual legal guidelines he won't really face official censure for breaking them- and any unofficial condemnation he receives will probably be balanced by approving heroes and vigilantes.
 
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Miss Militia cites the US ignoring the unwritten rules as a reason she'd bring up for getting a kill order placed on them
 
Might be considered a rant but here goes.

The thing about the Unwritten Rules is they have parrellels with some current military ROE. As demonstrated beautifully in Eye in the Sky, politics is playing an increasingly large (and completely unneeded) role in certain kinds of actions like HVT eliminaton when there is a risk (however low it might be/can be made) of civilian collateral. The politians cared less about "hey we can end this major potential threat with no collateral damage if you green light us right now" and instead spent several hours arguing over and being more concerned with who would take the fall if (and it was a big if at the start) there was collateral.
Their arguing ends up causing major collateral because the target started to move and it was either take them out or let them go and they would kill hundreds of people
It had a great quote but I cannot recall its entirety at this time.

If you look back at things like Desert Storm and WWII where the politicians had no/minimal say in military action things got done a lot faster and IMHO with less political fallout than things like Vietnam and Korea where it was mostly politians and political motivation that were being used to make military command decisions.

PRT is in the same boat because they have to worry so much about public opinion that they might as well be politians, EG who takes the blame if we fuck up? It's why the military doesn't/isn't allowed to destroy most targets that are in civilian areas (like in WWII) despite weapons now being able to do it with little/no collateral. Politians (and PRT higher ups) are more worried about how the are viewed and less about doing the job of protecting people.
What in the world? First off, drawing direct inspiration from the military in terms of how the PRT operates is hilariously wrong sighted: the PRT is a police force, not military. These are very different mindsets with different desired end states. Yes the PRT has to consider public opinion more than a military force operating in another country. Because the people they're dealing with are the public. Without going to a full police state there's no way around that.

Also, this seems rather revisionist: Korea's problem wasn't that war wasn't declared or that politicians were in charge. Korea's problem was that UN forces advanced too far, and got too close to China(something which the Civilian authorities were against at certain points and that the military in charge assured them would be fine). Most of the forces also had issues with doctrine and replenishment for casualties. The biggest issue with political leadership in Korea was that McArthur would not accept that leadership, even going so far as to attempt to obtain backing from other governments to disobey orders and start a full on war with China (almost certainly leading to war with the USSR, and thus a Nuclear war).

Vietnam did have issues regarding poor civilian leadership, but the military leadership didn't exactly cover itself with glory there, either.

You also seem to be ignoring stuff like the Cuban missile crisis, where the Military was all for starting a Nuclear war with the Soviets, and the Civilian leaderships was the group against doing that.
 
I doubt it's going to be an issue. This is just one part of Sunnys Grand Plan. Any reaction, if any is planned and accounted for already. As far as Hookwolf or anyone other than the PRT in pursuit knows he was bit on the ass by a regular if large dog, unless Sunny wants them to have a glimpse of the truth.
 
Kaiser shanking a subordinate is fanon. The only detail we have is that a female core member of New Wave was killed by a criminal who tracked down their civilian ID. No details beyond that.
Correction, the only detail we have is that Fleur was killed in her civilian ID. It could have been someone tracking her down, it could have been a mugging/home invasion/store robbery/rape gone wrong, or even her getting hit be a stray bullet/caught in an explosion of an unrelated fight. There are probably other possible explanations as well.
 
I doubt it's going to be an issue. This is just one part of Sunnys Grand Plan. Any reaction, if any is planned and accounted for already. .
Exactly! We're not just watching a superpowered dog making things up as it goes, here. We are, as far as I can tell, watching a superpowered dog running Path to Victory. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the dogs on motorcycles.
 
Correction, the only detail we have is that Fleur was killed in her civilian ID. It could have been someone tracking her down, it could have been a mugging/home invasion/store robbery/rape gone wrong, or even her getting hit be a stray bullet/caught in an explosion of an unrelated fight. There are probably other possible explanations as well.
I invite you to prove that this passage definitively relates to Fleur.
Interlude 26a said:
Back in Brockton Bay, New Wave had tried to start something, capes without masks. It had been disastrous. The message had been lost in the ensuing celebrity, and that had only intensified after one of the core members of the group was found and killed in her civilian identity.
This is the only comment in all of Worm which could mean that Fleur is dead, or give any hint as to her demise. It does, however, suggest through the use of the word "found" that someone actively tracked her down.

I suppose it is possible that she was standing in line at a convenience store when a member of the Teeth barged in high as balls, shot everyone, grabbed the entire cash register, and ran away, but the fact that it's given as a reason for the collapse of the movement and the use of the word "found" over another way to phrase that sentence is indicative.

Will everyone please stop arguing about how canonical the "unwritten rules" are and stick to discussing Constellations?
Actually this is turning out to be rather relevant, because:
The only time we see the UR in play between villains and heroes is Kaiser punishing his subordinate for shanking Fleur, and I hold it as an anomaly because Kaiser is also very concerned about keeping up appearances as more 'civilized' than his peers.
In light of Theo not knowing any details about Fleur's death in 26a, did Kaiser kill the person who killed Fleur as far as Constellations is concerned? If so, how public did he make the information that he had done so?
 
I invite you to prove that this passage definitively relates to Fleur.
The core members were the Brockton Bay Brigade, Fleur and Lightstar are the only members who aren't around at the start of canon and as we see in interlude 15.x lightstar is a guy.

It does, however, suggest through the use of the word "found" that someone actively tracked her down.
No, it does not. It does not even suggest that the characters believed that. At most you could argue it suggests that she was not killed in a store robbery gone bad, or caught a stray bullet. There's no indication that whoever killed her tracked her down, there's no indication of anything.

but the fact that it's given as a reason for the collapse of the movement
Indicates nothing, the movement could have died still-born because Fleur was the charismatic face and without it they had no movement, or because her death led her husband to leave and that killed the movement before it got started, or because of how her death affected Brandish, or for many other reasons.

and the use of the word "found" over another way to phrase that sentence is indicative
No, it's not.
 
Honestly, attempting to connect the unwritten rules to military conventions is misleading, and not just because the PRT is more of a police force that happens to be forced to use military-grade hardware to deal with its criminals because, you know, superpowers.

The mafia is probably a better comparison point, and in fact I personally suspect that superhero stories are directly influenced by the mafia's existence and practices. (There's evidence the mafia was outright involved in early superhero comics, though as far as I'm aware nothing definite has been found. It's just this thing I keep running across when people who worked in comics back in the day talk about what they thought might have been going on) While it's a nuisance to find good statements online, it's a thing with the mafia that they have rules of behavior that are not necessarily intuitive to an outsider and bear a resemblance to what Lisa describes as the 'unwritten rules' in Worm. Wikipedia notes that a number of American mafia families forbid killing state authorities "due to the possibility of extreme police retaliation", as one example. The Sicilian mafia actually discourages the use of drugs and alcohol in its members, because secrecy is paramount and the risk of an inebriated individual blurting out something important too high. In the event that one is wronged the expectation is that you'll take care of the situation yourself -going to the police is felt to make one look weak.

For another example, Mob Rules (A book written by an ex-mafioso. It's a pretty good read, honestly) tells a story of a mafioso who calls over another mafioso, planning to kill him for some offense he's made. The guy shows up, but his girlfriend is in the car with him. The guy goes in alone, the girlfriend waiting out in the car, clueless. The murder goes off without a hitch... but the mafioso who performed the murder also decides to kill the girlfriend on the logic of "eliminating witnesses." (Never mind that she didn't see anything) Killing the girl violates a major rule, though, and when other mafia guys find out -if I recall correctly, by virtue of the police finding out and making a big deal of it, but it's been a while since I read the book- the end result is that the mafioso who committed the murder is, in turn, murdered by other mafia guys. The primary motive being to get the police to back off, but it's illustrative of why the rule that should've protected the girlfriend exists.

/infodump

Only dumping this here because someone was talking about "why would the unwritten rules exist? Why would villains hold themselves to them?"

Personally, I doubt it's going to cross anyone's mind to think an unwritten rule violation happened re: Hookwolf, just because... doG. Maybe sometime down the line, if Ammy becomes more widely recognized? But. Well. Ammy's whole thing is making the world a better place and beating up cosmic horrors and stuff while basically nobody has any clue that the nice dog/wolf has any connection to the fact that Cthulhu just fell over dead and stopped driving everyone mad with his presence. So... probably not going to happen. Frankly, I suspect the only reason there's people making the connection at all in Constellations is because this is a world where "weird, slightly off, nothing wrong" equals "oh god a parahuman is trying to kill people and all we're seeing is this one weird thing" all too often in Bet. A less paranoid people would probably ignore her entirely.
 
I think a lot of people tend to conflate the Unwritten Rules with the Endbringer Truce, which is enforced and harshly.

Thinking back, I tend to wonder if the Unwritten Rules apply the most as an agreement between villains, because they're the ones most likely to try and shank one another. We do see an application of it in that they have a neutral territory in the form of Somer's Rock. The only time we see the UR in play between villains and heroes is Kaiser punishing his subordinate for shanking Fleur, and I hold it as an anomaly because Kaiser is also very concerned about keeping up appearances as more 'civilized' than his peers.

There's honestly more evidence for the UR being broken in Worm than there are examples of keeping it. New Wave vs. Marquis and Oni Lee come to mind-- remember how one of those rules was about no killing? Yeah... if that is a thing then why do we have a suicide bomber?

I always thought of the Unwritten Rules in practice meant less "don't attack someone in their civilian ID" and more "don't get caught attacking someone in the civilian ID". Sure you'd treat a villain that broke the rules as persona non grata, but you'd still break them yourself if you had some kind of deniability.
 
I always thought of the Unwritten Rules in practice meant less "don't attack someone in their civilian ID" and more "don't get caught attacking someone in the civilian ID". Sure you'd treat a villain that broke the rules as persona non grata, but you'd still break them yourself if you had some kind of deniability.
That applies to pretty much every law.
 
Nope.
The 'Unwritten Rules' are only really referred to in canon by Tattletale, who is an unreliable narrator at best. Capes do seem to have a sort of Gentleman's Agreement not to attack each other in their homes and such, but that wasn't even an issue here. Hookwolf started using his power in public after being bitten by a dog; he outed himself. It was just bad luck that a hero was nearby to take advantage of that.
Furthermore, like I pointed out on the other forum, the PRT know who Brian Meadows is.
Hookwolf has been captured and sent to the Birdcage twice, which means they know what he looks like powered down; each time he was broken out of the Birdcage transport.
Nobody, to date, had ever escaped the Birdcage, the name that had been coined for the supervillain prison in British Columbia. Hookwolf, though, had escaped on no less than two occasions while being transported there. He was a killer, and thought nothing of murdering people if they didn't fit the Aryan ideal.
They know who he is, like they know who Lung is; they don't just launch manhunts for either of them.

The unspoken rules are a thing, that is explicitly referred to in Triumph's Interlude by both Miss Militia and Assault.
It's just not as cut and dried as people make it out in fanon; apparently, there's also something about mindcontrolling civilians, but it's never fully stated, and seems to be more of a soft prohibition.

For more insight, I would suggest rereading Interlude 15, where the argument between Miss Militia and Assault is the closest we see to how the PRT and Protectorate see the rules.
To be honest, it sounds more like the "Unwritten Rules" was introduced to reduce the options Taylor/Skitter had. But to make things even worse for Taylor, of course, nobody else actually needed to follow said rules, and there was zero actual fallout from breaking them for anyone other than Taylor/Skitter. Typical thing most players would cry 'Foul' over.
This is also wrong.
Read Interlude 15, where it was explicitly used to defend the Undersiders actions at a time when large elements of the Protectorate are pushing to escalate and retaliate against things like the Undersider attack on PRT HQ and invasion of Triumph's home.
Instead, he commented, "Just going by what I've heard, Assault's arguing we should take the fight to the enemy? Without Piggot's consent?"
"Piggot has told us to stand down," Miss Militia spoke. "So we'd be going against her directive."
"They attacked one of our own. Again," Assault said. "And they broke a cardinal rule. They attacked family. You don't unmask a cape, and if you happen to discover their secret identity, you don't go after their family."

"The family's testimony suggests that wasn't deliberate. Skitter informed Trickster partway through," Weld said.
Clockblocker cut in, "But we can assume she found out beforehand. Unless you're going to suggest she figured it out on her own?"
"No," Weld replied. "It makes sense. I suspect Tattletale could find out something like that. I'd even believe she's found out all of our identities by now. But I'm saying Trickster wasn't in the know, and he's the person who made the conscious decision to attack Triumph's sister."

"They've broken other unspoken rules," Assault said, looking at Triumph and Miss Militia rather than the junior members. "Shatterbird? Are we really going to let that one slide?"
"Anything goes when fighting the Nine," Miss Militia said.
"The Nine are gone. He's still breaking the rules. He kidnapped and took control of Shadow Stalker. He's affected civilians. Criminals, admittedly, but still civilians."
"And the people in charge know that," Miss Militia said. "If they decide that it's crossing the line, we can act decisively."


"People in suits," Assault said. "They sit in offices with padded chairs, viewing everything through the filter of clinical, tidy paperwork. They don't know what it is to be in the field, to face the risk of death or fates worse than death in the service of this city."
If Miss Militia had been getting ready for a response, she hesitated when Assault said 'fates worse than death', his voice revealing a tremor of emotion.
Triumph could imagine the scene as he'd glimpsed it: Battery on her deathbed, wasting away from a poison designed to be cruel rather than efficient. But as slow as it had worked, it had proved incurable.

Assault went on, and there was no hint of the earlier emotion in his voice. Rather, he sounded dangerously like a leader. "If we don't act on this, if we don't move on the Undersiders and the Travelers, then we're saying that's alright. We're saying it's okay to do those same things to us."
"You'd be violating your probationary status on the team," Miss Militia said, quiet. "Going against orders."
"My joining the Protectorate was conditional on being on the same team as Battery," Assault replied. He met Miss Militia's eyes with a level stare, as if challenging her to press the issue.

There was no doubt what was at the root of Assault's anger. Miss Militia, by contrast, was the leader of the Protectorate because of her unwavering loyalty and willingness to not only abide by the rules but to fight for them. Triumph could understand why they'd taken the positions they had.
He glanced at the others. Weld was a company man, so to speak, and the PRT was his family, after a fashion. It made sense that he'd stand by the rules imposed by the PRT, the Protectorate and the Wards. Clockblocker had always chafed under the yoke of the institution, and Chariot could easily be the same. Most Wards went through a phase like that, feeling the pressures, the strict rules, realizing that the Wards existed in part to keep them out of the worst of things, while aching to go out and be a hero. Clockblocker had never entirely grown out of it.

It could be that Chariot's stance here was what Coil wanted. Triumph couldn't forget that Chariot was an undercover operative, planted by the supervillain to gather information.
No, none of those calls surprised him. The outliers, the ones that caught him off guard…
"Vista, I didn't think you'd be wanting to break the rules like this," he commented. Before she could reply, he said, "And Kid Win. I took you for more of a rebel."
"I'm tired of losing people," Vista said. "We lost Gallant. Aegis too, and Velocity, Dauntless, Battery…"
"Yeah. And Shadow Stalker," Triumph offered.

"She left," Clockblocker said.
"I'd still consider her a casualty," Triumph said. "We might not have liked her, but she was one of us, and the enemy basically took her from us."
"I don't want to forget Glory Girl and Panacea," Clockblocker said. "She and her sister did me a life-changing favor. We don't know the whole story there, but the Undersiders or the Nine had to have played a part in how that unfolded. But that's one hell of a list of names. There's less of us than there are them, and we're losing. Not just fights, but we're losing this war. Don't you see that?"

"I see it," Miss Militia said, her voice particularly quiet compared to her raised volume earlier. "But that's exactly why I'm telling you not to do this. The second we make this into an actual war, we change it from a losing fight to an outright defeat. At best everyone involved would lose out, our enemies included. I don't want that."
"You're making it sound more complicated than it is," Assault said. "I'm talking a quick, hard hitting strike against one of their territories. One of the master-classifications would be a good bet. I'd suggest Regent, but Shatterbird is too big a complication. Better to take out Hellhound or Skitter. Doing either would cut their tactical options down by a third, and it could gain us a hostage to leverage against the others."

"Not Tattletale?" Clockblocker asked.
Assault shook his head. "She'd know we were coming. It's in Armsmaster's notes from his first meeting with Skitter. It's why they're so elusive as a group, and that's why it's so crucial we strike first, while they're still split up in individual territories. Grue, Trickster, Genesis or Imp would escape too readily, and confronting Ballistic or Sundancer would place our side at too much risk."
"They'd retaliate," Miss Militia said, "And we'd almost certainly lose. We're roughly matched in numbers, we're outmatched in raw firepower and they have the edge on us in terms of tactical knowledge."

"So we're supposed to sit here and take it?" Clockblocker asked. "If my family gets attacked next time, I don't think my dad's about to haul out a shotgun to defend himself."
"That's not exactly how it played out," Triumph said. "But no. I don't think we should take it, and I don't think we should attack. Miss Militia's right."
Assault's eyebrows rose in surprise.
"Thank you," Miss Militia said. "I understand that some of you are upset. We're all upset. We're all concerned about our loved ones, about the current state of things in the city and about possibly being captured and controlled by Regent. But we're only going to succeed with the support of the Protectorate as a whole, and we'll only have that if we stick to the rules."
Pay attention to the bolded bits, and the exact language that's used.
Or reread the entire Interlude.
 
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It's like Miss Militia KNOWS Sunny! :rofl:

her fist cold-clocking the teenage villain

You have a typo there. Unless Dennis is involved, that should be cold-cocking not cold-clocking.

I wonder what Ammy really considers trouble, these days?

Right now, I'm visualizing her using Leviathan as a well-chewed surf board.

So Ammy has decided to completely forgo subtly and very visibly troll the PRT/Protectorate

Oh, she crossed that line long ago. Remember, she left doggy noseprints on the ArmsCamera, despite it being at least 30 feet in the air (telephone pole).

There is also the small fact that Ammy, just broke the Unwritten rules and Unmasked, Bradley Meadows as Hookwolf.

Like most mortal rules, I imagine it comes with an Act of doG clause... :rofl:
 
Pay attention to the bolded bits, and the exact language that's used.
Interesting. However, notice how Trickster is talked about as the one breaking the unwritten rules at the beginning, and the Protectorate rank-and-file considers using this as a reason to attack Hellhound or Skitter?
Better to take out Hellhound or Skitter.
The surprise (to me) is that Hellhound is mentioned there at all.
 
Interesting. However, notice how Trickster is talked about as the one breaking the unwritten rules at the beginning, and the Protectorate rank-and-file considers using this as a reason to attack Hellhound or Skitter?
Say Assault and Glory Girl had gone to Daniel Hebert's house because of Dockworker Union implication in some crime.
And Assault had lost his temper and attacked Danny. Do you think GG, and by extension New Wave would be able to claim ignorance?
Who would believe it was a coincidence, instead of a premeditated attack on Skitter's father?

Trickster and Skitter attacked the mayor's house as a team.
It makes sense to assume that they were both briefed; if Triumph hadn't caught sight of Skitter trying to warn Trickster off, there is no way she'd be able to prove otherwise.
Triumph's cool-headedness saved a lot of lives there, because any escalation at that point would have gone lethal very quickly.
The surprise (to me) is that Hellhound is mentioned there at all.
Why not?
Bitch is the person who can spawn dog-kaiju that are capable of meleeing Leviathan and heavy Dragonsuits.
It makes sense to prioritize neutralizing her, especially since they know more about her at that time than, say, Skitter.
 
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