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Constellations (Worm/Okami)

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Thief of Words said:
Aiden was an orphan and present when Skitter's turf was attacked by mannequin. Thing about Master triggers is that like Tinker and Thinker ones, they can be things that build up over time. Honestly, from what Wildbow has written about trigger events in the Weaver dice doc, Taylor's trigger was a bit abnormal as Master triggers go, due to the presence of an immediate but abstract physical threat, which (I think, can't check the doc from my phone) is usually how you get breaker powers instead.

Then again, Taylor not having to fight off Toxic Shock Syndrome has all the hallmarks of someone who doesn't have to deal with a risk factor on a monthly basis from a young enough age.
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I'm missing something. I know what Toxic Shock Syndrome is, but I don't see the rest of the relation to the Master trigger.
 
Rajvik_wolfboy said:
@pheonix89

The conditions in the locker could have/likely would have caused any wounds to almost immediately go septic.
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No, I know that, but I don't get what "Taylor not having to fight off Toxic Shock Syndrome has all the hallmarks of someone who doesn't have to deal with a risk factor on a monthly basis from a young enough age" means in relation to a standard master trigger.
 
I have absolutely fuck all idea of how immune system work, but if you regularly have to deal with risk factors, wouldn't your body be more tolerant of general toxicity and infection? Or is that myth?
 
Taylors doesn't look like someone with a compromised immune system. She was rather healthy, IIRC, but just on the thin side.
 
munchkinomatic said:
I have absolutely fuck all idea of how immune system work, but if you regularly have to deal with risk factors, wouldn't your body be more tolerant of general toxicity and infection? Or is that myth?
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Not a myth, but also not universally true. You can become resistant to SOME poisons by taking small doses of the poison (spaced wide enough apart for you to recover from the damage), but not all, and you can also develop an allergic reaction to whatever the poison is that way.

For other poisons it won't work, although I have no idea what distinguishes between ones where it works and once where it doesn't (other than the fact that it won't work on anything that accumulates in the body).
 
pheonix89 said:
No, I know that, but I don't get what "Taylor not having to fight off Toxic Shock Syndrome has all the hallmarks of someone who doesn't have to deal with a risk factor on a monthly basis from a young enough age" means in relation to a standard master trigger.
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I think it means that Taylor's experiences in Winslow have all the red flags for typical Master/Tinker/Thinker triggers--extended period of time with extreme duress--but the Locker was a tipping point. Such an extreme event like the Locker isn't usually included in Master/etc trigger backgrounds.

I think the argument then follows that Aiden had a more typical Master trigger--living in a stressful environment for an extended period of time--but since he was a 2nd gen he didn't need as severe conditions.
 
TheUnicorn said:
For other poisons it won't work, although I have no idea what distinguishes between ones where it works and once where it doesn't (other than the fact that it won't work on anything that accumulates in the body).
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I think it's called organic alkaloid? Stuff like snake venoms and anything that can be countered by a natural antibody or something like that.

I'm certain that this won't work on any kind of metallic poison. Probably won't work on cyanide. Definite no to CO/CO2.
 
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pheonix89 said:
No, I know that, but I don't get what "Taylor not having to fight off Toxic Shock Syndrome has all the hallmarks of someone who doesn't have to deal with a risk factor on a monthly basis from a young enough age" means in relation to a standard master trigger.
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Menstrual blood. Girls have to learn about TSS if they use tampons, because an improperly used tampon is a risk factor.

My point was that the trigger circumstances should've slanted Taylor toward a Breaker (abstract but immediate physical peril) or Shaker (danger from environmental conditions) trigger rather than a Master one. The locker sans awful stuff in it fits master trigger conditions (isolation, alienation) better than the locker with awful stuff in it. Her being trapped in the locker for hours or more with no one noticing, no one caring, that would fit a Master power better. Honestly, the oddity of it probably comes from him having worked backwards on it. He settled Skitter (her power and etc) well before he figured Taylor out. My guess would be the period blood in the locker was an attempt to justify bug control.

UnwelcomeStorm said:
I think it means that Taylor's experiences in Winslow have all the red flags for typical Master/Tinker/Thinker triggers--extended period of time with extreme duress--but the Locker was a tipping point. Such an extreme event like the Locker isn't usually included in Master/etc trigger backgrounds.

I think the argument then follows that Aiden had a more typical Master trigger--living in a stressful environment for an extended period of time--but since he was a 2nd gen he didn't need as severe conditions.
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This precisely, though I'm still not as sold on the validity of the easier 2nd gen triggers. Though for Aiden it'd also be the alienating nature of being an orphan. Whatever social ties he had before are gone (if not outright dead).
 
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Thief of Words said:
My point was that the trigger circumstances should've slanted Taylor toward a Breaker (abstract but immediate physical peril) or Shaker (danger from environmental conditions) trigger rather than a Master one. The locker sans awful stuff in it fits master trigger conditions (isolation, alienation) better than the locker with awful stuff in it.
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Certainly, but the most important part of any trigger event is the new parahuman's own mental state during the trigger. In Taylor's case, the locker being a potential breaker/shaker trigger would seem to require her to view it as a completely separate event, emotionally and rationally, than everything else she's been through.

Instead, she very viscerally connects it to her bullies, and to the bullying she's been through, and views it as a culmination of their hatred and disdain for her, and indeed the lack of care the ENTIRE school has for her - nobody standing up for her, or doing anything to help her out, not even alerting her to the mess in her locker or any staff member trying to clean it out, despite the fact that we're told it had been left in there for some time?

To Taylor, surely it stank so badly that SOMEONE must have noticed, but nobody cared enough to ask why her locker smelled like that. And then once she's in it, not a single person cared to let her out for some time. I don't recall if we're ever told how long she was in there, but it was certainly long enough for at least a caring teacher to be informed by some concerned, uninvolved bystander and come by to let her out? But no. She's not worth even that much concern. The mess in the locker is almost secondary to all of that.
 
munchkinomatic said:
I have absolutely fuck all idea of how immune system work, but if you regularly have to deal with risk factors, wouldn't your body be more tolerant of general toxicity and infection? Or is that myth?
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Depends on the type of illness. Having to regularly fight it off helps with certain viruses because it means tailored antibodies are in your bloodstream. Other illnesses it can help to have your immune response already running...but not every illness. That first scenario is how vaccines work, by putting out a (sort of) false alarm, a test run of sorts. But some illnesses don't care about either case. The common cold, for example, mutates strains too fast for it to be undone that way. Same with HIV.
 
WyldeHorse said:
Certainly, but the most important part of any trigger event is the new parahuman's own mental state during the trigger. In Taylor's case, the locker being a potential breaker/shaker trigger would seem to require her to view it as a completely separate event, emotionally and rationally, than everything else she's been through.

Instead, she very viscerally connects it to her bullies, and to the bullying she's been through, and views it as a culmination of their hatred and disdain for her, and indeed the lack of care the ENTIRE school has for her - nobody standing up for her, or doing anything to help her out, not even alerting her to the mess in her locker or any staff member trying to clean it out, despite the fact that we're told it had been left in there for some time?

To Taylor, surely it stank so badly that SOMEONE must have noticed, but nobody cared enough to ask why her locker smelled like that. And then once she's in it, not a single person cared to let her out for some time. I don't recall if we're ever told how long she was in there, but it was certainly long enough for at least a caring teacher to be informed by some concerned, uninvolved bystander and come by to let her out? But no. She's not worth even that much concern. The mess in the locker is almost secondary to all of that.
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I get that, but I still maintain she should've had a breaker/shaker corollary at least from the circumstances. You could get the same mental effect without the viscerality by having her scream herself hoarse to no avail. Someone had to have heard. No one cared. My point was that the stuff in there was an artifact of working backwards, i.e: power first, then trigger. It's there to justify the bugs and to intensify the disgust readers feel for the trio/Winslow.

And the fact that Taylor didn't deal with serious infection after the fact suggests an ignorance on Wildbow's part of how deadly the locker could easily have been.

Honestly, if you want a more traditional Master trigger, go look at what Wildbow said about if Danny had triggered. He fits the Master bill better under the circumstances than Taylor.

To tell the truth, I'm still surprised that no one has written the story of rat-man Danny, who set out to clean up BB in a more Coil-esque method. I assume it's because readers often dislike Danny for having guessed wrong on how to approach his daughter with what was going on.

But then, I suspect many hold his failures against Danny out of identification with Taylor despite that the circumstances that led to their distance are at least as much Taylor's fault. Seems like people forget that the Union had probably been struggling for almost as long as Taylor had been alive. The Heberts likely kept afloat in large part due to Annette's pay as a professor. Suddenly, with her death, he's left without his one pillar of support, having to get twice as much out of things without her. He strikes me as the sort that felt his earlier happiness or success was despite himself. Not being able to handle things without Annette? That'd probably just confirm feelings of inadequacy his father's screams had left in him.
 
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Thief of Words said:
I get that, but I still maintain she should've had a breaker/shaker corollary at least from the circumstances. You could get the same mental effect without the viscerality by having her scream herself hoarse to no avail. Someone had to have heard. No one cared. My point was that the stuff in there was an artifact of working backwards, i.e: power first, then trigger. It's there to justify the bugs and to intensify the disgust readers feel for the trio/Winslow.

And the fact that Taylor didn't deal with serious infection after the fact suggests an ignorance on Wildbow's part of how deadly the locker could easily have been.

Honestly, if you want a more traditional Master trigger, go look at what Wildbow said about if Danny had triggered. He fits the Master bill better under the circumstances than Taylor.

To tell the truth, I'm still surprised that no one has written the story of rat-man Danny, who set out to clean up BB in a more Coil-esque method. I assume it's because readers often dislike Danny for having guessed wrong on how to approach his daughter with what was going on.

But then, I suspect many hold his failures against Danny out of identification with Taylor despite that the circumstances that led to their distance are at least as much Taylor's fault. Seems like people forget that the Union had probably been struggling for almost as long as Taylor had been alive. The Heberts likely kept afloat in large part due to Annette's pay as a professor. Suddenly, with her death, he's left without his one pillar of support, having to get twice as much out of things without her. He strikes me as the sort that felt his earlier happiness or success was despite himself. Not being able to handle things without Annette? That'd probably just confirm feelings of inadequacy his father's screams had left in him.
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You want Wharf Rat.
 
Thief of Words said:
I get that, but I still maintain she should've had a breaker/shaker corollary at least from the circumstances. You could get the same mental effect without the viscerality by having her scream herself hoarse to no avail. Someone had to have heard. No one cared. My point was that the stuff in there was an artifact of working backwards, i.e: power first, then trigger. It's there to justify the bugs and to intensify the disgust readers feel for the trio/Winslow.

And the fact that Taylor didn't deal with serious infection after the fact suggests an ignorance on Wildbow's part of how deadly the locker could easily have been.
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The PRT ratings just don't work when trying to consider how powers work with additional WoG. All Tinkers are actually very specificly weird focus Shaker-Breakers effect, that can be identified and replicated by sufficiently OP Thinkers. Taylor basically is a Shaker given the way her power works. She has a range of effect that she uses to control the battlefield, it's just more limited compared to pure-shaker triggers.

Taylor not dealing with an infection suggests that if she had one her Trigger Event did a healy thing and covered it, making that either some remarkable foreshadowing, or at worst an Author Saving Throw a fortuitous coincidence that makes a great deal of sense.
 
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I'm pretty sure the ideas of how trigger events work and what kinds of powers result is largely stuff that got settled later. Much of the terminology of power classifications simply doesn't exist until Weld does the rhyme. Legend, for instance, gets called by Taylor 'flying artillery', no use of the term Blaster, and the 'Alexandria package' thing is referred to early on a few times and then stops seeing use outright. It would be difficult for Wildbow to construct a vaguely coherent idea of how triggers work and produce kinds of powers if he didn't have a coherent way of thinking about power natures.

Also, it's not that important because we're always told it's a trend. If Taylor doesn't fit a typical Master trigger -or Shaker trigger, or whatever you feel she should be held to as the standard she fits- that's perfectly in-character to the universe as explained to us. Exceptions happen.

What would be more of a problem would be:

"Masters are heavily slanted toward coming out of X conditions."

"Here is a list of 100 Masters with trigger events."

"Note how exactly two people in the list fit what I claimed is the most common scenario."

... but we don't have nearly enough examples of trigger events of any kind of power to really pull together a coherent picture to then study and compare against claims.

I should point out that trigger-healing is not a thing I have ever heard about. Cauldron Vials can heal people. I don't think we ever hear about someone with a natural trigger having it fix a life-long condition. As such, if you feel Taylor should have suffered more significantly (physically) from the locker than she did... triggering isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card.

All that said: I'm not clear what this line of conversation has to do with Constellations?

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I want to see how Oni Lee takes the Unionization. That's what I'm looking forward to.
 
"I should point out that trigger-healing is not a thing I have ever heard about. Cauldron Vials can heal people. I don't think we ever hear about someone with a natural trigger having it fix a life-long condition. As such, if you feel Taylor should have suffered more significantly (physically) from the locker than she did... triggering isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card."

Yeah...it's not about 'thinking' she should have suffered more. It's having an understanding of the stuff involved which it seems evident the author lacked. All I was trying to get across was that the system he built up later on didn't quite fit what he'd already written for Taylor. That it was maintained despite the elements involved undermining things.
 
Ghoul King said:
I should point out that trigger-healing is not a thing I have ever heard about. Cauldron Vials can heal people. I don't think we ever hear about someone with a natural trigger having it fix a life-long condition.
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Sorry, I was wrong and unclear. I meant to reference Taylor's suggested Second/Double trigger, in relation to Grue's post-trigger healing.
It's been a while since I read it, and I misremembered the regeneration power he borrowed as coinciding with the trigger, rather than following it.
 
munchkinomatic said:
I think it's called organic alkaloid? Stuff like snake venoms and anything that can be countered by a natural antibody or something like that.
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Seems likely.
munchkinomatic said:
Definite no to CO/CO2.
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Well...you can adjust to low oxygen environments, which is pretty much what the danger of high CO2 content is, not sore if that would help with CO poisoning.

Thief of Words said:
I get that, but I still maintain she should've had a breaker/shaker corollary at least from the circumstances.
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1)What determines what power a person gets is their mentality at the moment of the Trigger. The circimstances of the Trigger mill make some mental state more or less likely but there isn't any "should" involved, at most there's "it's an unusual trigger".
2)The same power can be a master, Shaker, or Thinker/Stranger depending on how the person uses it and how the PRT chooses to try and react to it. It's been noted before that Taylor's canon power was really more of a shaker power than a master one
 
well that was an entertaining read. I cant decide if Amaterasu is a lucky idiot, a genuis or just an out right troll. (the answer I suspect, is: yes.)

Look forward to seeing more.
 
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