Hi, been lurking for a while, anyone mind if I jump aboard this train?

[X] Plan Yeah, Just Spell It Out For Us Strange Witch
 
Hi, been lurking for a while, anyone mind if I jump aboard this train?
Sure, hop on. We've only got a week left but new faces are always appreciated.
[X] Plan Yeah, Just Spell It Out For Us Strange Witch
[X] Plan Yeah, Just Spell It Out For Us Strange Witch
Oh yeah, do we actually have a plan to defeat the witch, or just a plan to get past its illusions? And for the record, how sure are we that just knowing what the witch is up to will mean we can take it? It is still Walpol; and even if Kirika knows it's just an illusion, do we think she'll be able to take illusions of Oriko abandoning her?
 
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Hi, been lurking for a while, anyone mind if I jump aboard this train?
Not at all! Just don't drain the yuri out from this quest while you're here, a lot of the Holy Sextet still need that stuff. :V
Oh yeah, do we actually have a plan to defeat the witch, or just a plan to get past its illusions? And for the record, how sure are we that just knowing what the witch is up to will mean we can take it? It is still Walpol; and even if Kirika knows it's just an illusion, do we think she'll be able to take illusions of Oriko abandoning her?
We can't plan around a Witch that we're unaware of, so no, not at this time. We'll make a plan to fight the Witch once Homura and co make it to it in the first place.

Also direct your attention to this:
----[X] Exfiltrate for now before coming up with another plan; it would be wise to either figure out how to bypass whatever illusions that exist within this Witch's Labyrinth, or to only send in those who aren't susceptible to being shown their fears/bad experiences
-----[X] Now that you're aware of this Witch's schick, at the very least you should be fine; what about the others?
They won't be sending in anyone who's at risk of a major breakdown unless they have some way of mitigating it. Worst case they wait for the calvary, or call down Archer to help them. Homura can definitely handle it, as even at the end of the original Madoka Magica anime she was very well put together facing off against Walpurgisnacht until she was physically disabled, so we know that she can handle the pressure. Assassin might be fine too, considering her training as a Hassan-i-Sabah along with the fact that her object of affection is right there with her safe and sound.
 
Not at all! Just don't drain the yuri out from this quest while you're here, a lot of the Holy Sextet still need that stuff.
Kirika in particular quite literally needs it.
We can't plan around a Witch that we're unaware of, so no, not at this time. We'll make a plan to fight the Witch once Homura and co make it to it in the first place.

Also direct your attention to this:

They won't be sending in anyone who's at risk of a major breakdown unless they have some way of mitigating it. Worst case they wait for the calvary, or call down Archer to help them. ... Assassin might be fine too, considering her training as a Hassan-i-Sabah along with the fact that her object of affection is right there with her safe and sound.
We have no idea what Assassin is seeing, or even if she's seeing anything right now, so we shouldn't just assume she'll be fine because we're right there. As for the cavalry, there's only one person on our team that is actually equipped to handle what this witch is dishing out and be absolutely 0% affected by it, and she's currently occupied elsewhere. Maybe if we offered to change places with her and Kyouko we could...

Who am I kidding? As long as we have unlimited timestop we're able to safely cheese our way through any of the lesser witch fights unless it also can play with timestop. There's no point to me doing anything fancy here.
 
We have no idea what Assassin is seeing, or even if she's seeing anything right now, so we shouldn't just assume she'll be fine because we're right there. As for the cavalry, there's only one person on our team that is actually equipped to handle what this witch is dishing out and be absolutely 0% affected by it, and she's currently occupied elsewhere. Maybe if we offered to change places with her and Kyouko we could...
----[X] Exfiltrate for now before coming up with another plan; it would be wise to either figure out how to bypass whatever illusions that exist within this Witch's Labyrinth, or to only send in those who aren't susceptible to being shown their fears/bad experiences
-----[X] Now that you're aware of this Witch's schick, at the very least you should be fine; what about the others?
:p

If Assassin can't handle it, then we'll find out sooner or later.
Who am I kidding? As long as we have unlimited timestop we're able to safely cheese our way through any of the lesser witch fights unless it also can play with timestop. There's no point to me doing anything fancy here.
Sure there is. The very fact that this Witch can presumably predict the future in some fashion basically allows it to always duck out of sight whenever Homura's about to time-stop. So yeah, not much Homura can do there with time-stop alone (assuming I'm correct).

Unless of course you want another rubber/beach Witch situation. :V
 
Unless of course you want another rubber/beach Witch situation.
Is it so wrong of me to not just want our witch fights to go "Stop time. Poke the witch until you figure out its gimmick. Apply liberal amounts of death until the witch stops existing"?
I know that's how it goes in the show, but does that make it so wrong for me to want for something more?
 
Is it so wrong of me to not just want our witch fights to go "Stop time. Poke the witch until you figure out its gimmick. Apply liberal amounts of death until the witch stops existing"?
I know that's how it goes in the show, but does that make it so wrong for me to want for something more?
I mean, I'd like to say some words of assurance, but sadly you picked the wrong protagonist for this quest if that really bothers you. Post-Madoka Magica Homura would've been fine for this since she lost her ability to time-stop, but this Homura not so much. :/

If you really want to get rid of it, either chip her Soul Gem (not exactly a healthy means of debuffing) or have a Caster inflict some kind of curse or lock some kind of Mystic Code on her that'll prevent her from stopping time.
 
I mean, I'd like to say some words of assurance, but sadly you picked the wrong protagonist for this quest if that really bothers you. Post-Madoka Magica Homura would've been fine for this since she lost her ability to time-stop, but this Homura not so much.
Well, I didn't realise how much it would bother me by until we were well into things, because my original hope was that by buffing the timeline and forcing Homura to learn new skills in order to defeat the witches, that we'd lean more on those new skills, and didn't realise how tedious it would be to write so many different variations of "And then Homura stopped time and the Quintent ganked the witch" until we had already done that several times.
If you really want to get rid of it, either chip her Soul Gem (not exactly a healthy means of debuffing) or have a Caster inflict some kind of curse or lock some kind of Mystic Code on her that'll prevent her from stopping time.
It would be way too obvious if I did something like that now. No, I'll live with it for another week, and just say right now that I'm not going to write dozens of vs Walpol posts with the team entirely inside timestop.

EDIT: I think it's important to point out that my problem is primarily one of game balance. When I started doing this, I hadn't yet seen what could happen when game balance gets skewed in one direction or the other. The beach witch was a mistake on my part; it shouldn't have been what it was and I should have made it easier to figure out the gimmick behind it. But at the same time, I feel that unlimited timestop skews the game balance too much in the other direction, making fights too easy for us unless I specifically go in with a way for the witch to counter timestop; and I don't feel that that's good game balance either, because fights should be about the characters in the story versus the obstacles they're up against, not the players versus a QM trying to unfuck skewed game balance.

^ That's what ended up happening in the latter half of a previous, failed quest of mine, and for as much time and effort as I've put into this I hate seeing it happen here and knowing there's nothing I can do about it because that's the powerset of the character we're following and trying to stop it now would be too obvious to be kosher.
 
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--[X] With Kirika's outburst, it's fairly obvious that this Witch shows some kind of illusion to each of them individually based on either their fears or something negative that has happened in their lives, so make it plainly clear to Kirika, Assassin, and Berserker when you drag them into time-stop
---[X] If asked about what you are/were experiencing, answer truthfully

Or it's based on what Tarot card we pulled. Can't get much more disaster than Wally, and Kirika's getting her choice to spend her life with Oriko taken from her.

[x] Slap Kirika
-[x] Tell her that's not Oriko, but the Witch messing with her head.
-[x] Then freeze the table and shatter it.
 
So, can't we just get the others, or does that ruin the point? They probably not doing much since there's only a couple witches left... or am I mis-remembering things?

[x] Enetious
 
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There's a couple ways you can negate time stop to a extent.

Precogs, high levels of stealth, power nullifiers, traps, what Mami pulled in rebellion, high durability (walpurgis), fellow time manipulators, intangibility, what sayaka did in rebellion, and mind manipulation (ergo she think she stopped time but she didn't).

There's probably more I can't think of at this moment, but you get the idea.
 
Or it's based on what Tarot card we pulled. Can't get much more disaster than Wally, and Kirika's getting her choice to spend her life with Oriko taken from her.
What if you're both right?
So, can't we just get the others, or does that ruin the point? They probably not doing much since there's only a couple witches left... or am I mis-remembering things?
The point is to keep the city safe; contrary to what Kyouko thinks, there are no "dibs" when it comes to this team effort, and if someone else is a better fit to fight this witch then it's our job as defenders of Kanagawa's 19th to make it happen. You are remembering correctly that there are only a few witches left, but you forgot the part where it's about now that the familiars not killed by Kirika and Lancer would be turning into copies of their witches, so now we may have a minor surge of "new" of witches on our hands in the next few days.
There's a couple ways you can negate time stop to a extent.

Precogs, high levels of stealth, power nullifiers, traps, what Mami pulled in rebellion, high durability (walpurgis), fellow time manipulators, intangibility, what sayaka did in rebellion, and mind manipulation (ergo she think she stopped time but she didn't).

There's probably more I can't think of at this moment, but you get the idea.
Well, the problem there is that, while I can come up with all sorts of crazy stuff for the important fights to make timestop less valuable, most of the minor witches don't really have much to do with the way of "how to defeat timestop" because otherwise they'd have given TV series Homura too much trouble. It's the problem of an element from a narrative perspective not quite fitting when translated to a game perspective.

However, now that you mention it, there is one thing you mention that wouldn't be out of place in this witch's kit, but I worry that it'll appear too transparent after I've already voiced my concerns about the gameplay imbalance timestop causes...
 
Well, the problem there is that, while I can come up with all sorts of crazy stuff for the important fights to make timestop less valuable, most of the minor witches don't really have much to do with the way of "how to defeat timestop" because otherwise they'd have given TV series Homura too much trouble. It's the problem of an element from a narrative perspective not quite fitting when translated to a game perspective.

However, now that you mention it, there is one thing you mention that wouldn't be out of place in this witch's kit, but I worry that it'll appear too transparent after I've already voiced my concerns about the gameplay imbalance timestop causes...

Iirc, witches (and magical girls) this timeline are more powerful yeah? It's also canon that Walp attracted witches to Mitakihara before she arrived.

You can combine these facts by having Walps pull be stronger, thus netting greater witches.

Make em historical figures for mini bosses before walp arrives, like Cleopatras witch.

And throwing in some challenge so all your updates aren't "and then homura time stopped and they ganked the fuck outta her" is perfectly fine, and a valid complaint.
 
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Iirc, witches (and magical girls) this timeline are more powerful yeah?
Correct. This was done so that we'd be incentivised to learn new skills and take advantage of the added Nasuverse magic mechanics, in addition to making things more challenging for Homura by making witches immune to mundane weapons and giving our enemies more power to compensate for the brokenness that is timestop.
It's also canon that Walp attracted witches to Mitakihara before she arrived.
I have no idea about this. I've never heard of it working like that before, and that's not how I've been playing things in this quest. The reason we're seeing new witches pop up now is because this is about when the familiars not killed by Oriko, Kirika, and Lancer back then would be maturing into new witches, not because of Walpol's appearance.
Make em historical figures for mini bosses before walp arrives, like Cleopatras witch.
I wouldn't do this, because this quest isn't the time or place to explore that part of the world. I'll be leaving it to the sequel to play with the idea of what it means to be a witch. For now, we're just stacking bodies until Walpol appears.
@Enetious would you consider bringing miyuki over to check for illusions a good idea?
I think that's part of what's being covered in his vote, though if it is it looks more like an inferred thing than a definite. I could be wrong.
 
[x] Enetious

While I can understand the worry about the timestop gank cheapening witch fights I think you're looking at it wrong. It's not the timestop that makes the ganking possible, but the fact that it allows us to fairly freely choose from our large roster of versatile powerhouses and find the best solution. If we just had timestop we would still have major issues with a lot of these buffed up witches.
Also even if we attribute all of that to the timestop ability that would still leave homura as the third or fourth most gamebreaking person in the quest. Archer can and has pulled out solutions to almost every problem we've come across and not just in combat. Oriko can see the future which lets us future-proof a good chunk of our plans. Finally of course is Gil who can do both of those things better than they can. What I'm saying is this quest is already full of gamebreaking abilities and they've all been used pretty liberally throughout the entire quest.
That said I do have a suggestion for if you want to give us some more dynamic witch fights where timestop doesn't come into play. It's actually pretty simple, just use a different POV character that isn't hunting with Homura. Follow Archer when he isn't with Homura, get into Miyuki's head and see how she handles a witch fight, heck have Cu Chulainn's horrible luck lead to him wandering into a labyrinth with a witch that won't fight him head on.
 
While I can understand the worry about the timestop gank cheapening witch fights I think you're looking at it wrong. It's not the timestop that makes the ganking possible, but the fact that it allows us to fairly freely choose from our large roster of versatile powerhouses and find the best solution. If we just had timestop we would still have major issues with a lot of these buffed up witches.
Also even if we attribute all of that to the timestop ability that would still leave homura as the third or fourth most gamebreaking person in the quest. Archer can and has pulled out solutions to almost every problem we've come across and not just in combat. Oriko can see the future which lets us future-proof a good chunk of our plans. Finally of course is Gil who can do both of those things better than they can. What I'm saying is this quest is already full of gamebreaking abilities and they've all been used pretty liberally throughout the entire quest.
You make a very good point that timestop is only one of our team's busted abilities, but it's missing a factor that makes timestop in particular a problem- A lack of interaction on the part of the stopped. For every other busted ability our team has, there's always the chance of a witch to interact with that. We know Oriko's precognition isn't perfect, and a witch that's extra tanky can survive a hit even from a choice armament from Archer or Caster; but timestop is different, in that unless the witch is specifically put together in an effort to frustrate the use of timestop, time is stopped. Unless I specifically go into a witch with a plan to frustrate us using timestop, there's nothing the witch can do and typing up combat just becomes an exercise in "And then Homura stopped time and ganked the witch." But if I went into every witch fight with a plan to frustrate timestop, then there'd be no point in Homura even having it, and depriving her of her main combat trick just because I'm tired of writing "And then Homura stopped time and ganked the witch" comes across as incredibly petty, to the point where even though I had an idea for how to cheese-proof this witch, I don't want to use it now that I've already aired my complaints because I know it would just come across as incredibly petty.

Timestop is very, very good for the role in TV series PMMM it plays for Homura, where mundane combat isn't the point of her character; but it's a much different beast when everything has to be typed out in slower-than-realtime and where mundane combat is a very real part of our character activities.

I hope that makes some measure of sense, that it's not solely the gamebreaking nature of timestop, but rather the lack of interaction in most cases that makes it a special problem with regards to breaking game balance. So it's a combination of worry about game balance, coupled with me not enjoying writing fights that can be summed up as "And then Homura stopped time and ganked the witch" but also not wanting to deprive Homura of her main ability just because it's not fun for me to write.
That said I do have a suggestion for if you want to give us some more dynamic witch fights where timestop doesn't come into play. It's actually pretty simple, just use a different POV character that isn't hunting with Homura. Follow Archer when he isn't with Homura, get into Miyuki's head and see how she handles a witch fight, heck have Cu Chulainn's horrible luck lead to him wandering into a labyrinth with a witch that won't fight him head on.
We do often follow Archer. Right now, he's trying to get out of being flirted with by Minako so he can actually go out and do his job. As for the others, they aren't the focal characters so any focus on their perspective would fall under omake territory.
 
Day 40 Chapter 20
[X] Plan Yeah, Just Spell It Out For Us Strange Witch



"Wait!" Kirika's anguished screams tear your mind away from the fight that stands before you. "Don't go!" What? "Please, don't leave me Oriko! I'll be good! I'll behave! Promise! Just please... Don't leave me like this..."

You don't understand. Walpurgisnacht is right there, right in front of you, but Kirika is screaming to an apparition of Mikuni Oriko that isn't there. No, you do understand. The Walpurgisnacht in front of you is no more real than the Mikuni Oriko in front of Kirika that you can't see. It must be some ability of the witch, or a property of the labyrinth, that's making you see these things.

Walpurgisnacht... The calamity which heralds the end of each of your repetitions; the enemy you can never defeat... And Mikuni Oriko abandoning Kirka... It must have something to do with the Tarot cards you and she drew earlier. But what? Is the witch showing you visions based on what cards you drew; or did it use those cards to divine what would be negative visions likely to break your spirits? Or is it something else entirely?

"We're withdrawing for now," you say to Kirika; she doesn't respond to you. She's fallen to her knees, her eyes bloodshot, her body shaking. She's in no condition to fight. "Snap out of it!" you yell to her. "It's not real! They're just illusions! That's not really MIkuni Oriko!"

"She's gone! My Oriko's gone and she left me and I'm all alone!"

"Get a hold of yourself!" Your voice still fails to reach her. The image of Walpurgisnacht looms over you, its penetrating laughter as loud and as real as it's ever been to your sense of hearing. Even if it is an illusion, you don't know if it'll still be able to harm you. "Everyone, we're pulling out for now!" you call out to the pair of servants accompanying you. Assassin and Berserker take their leave of the single-room labyrinth, and with Kirika unable to bring herself to her feet you have no choice but to drag her out with you.

The deck of cards encased in the block of ice i still burning as you exit the labyrinth. "Master, what was all of that back there?" Assassin asks. "Berserker and I saw nothing, but you were frozen in fear, and Berserker's master was sobbing uncontrollably."

"So, you didn't see anything?"

Berserker shakes his head. "Assassin and I saw the same darkened room with drawn curtains the entire time we were present in the labyrinth. As far as we can tell, only you and my master saw anything." Berserker's eyes stare at his master, who is still sobbing helplessly on the ground, unable to stand even as you try to coax her to her feet. "What did she see?" he asks. "I have never seen my master so distraught before, not even when her legs were missing."

"From what I heard before she broke down, I'm pretty sure she saw Mikuni Oriko breaking up with her."

Berserker nods; "That would do it," he's no doubt thinking to himself. "And what of you?" he asks. "What did you see that had you frozen solid in fear?"

"I saw the witch that will be arriving in a week," you say. "I saw Walpurgisnacht."

"What are we to do now, master?" Assassin asks, approaching you with care, so as not to accidentally risk brushing up against Kirika. "Neither I nor Berserker could see anything, not even the witch; but you and Berserker's master were immobile before the illusions of the witch."

Kirika is likely to remain useless for the rest of the night. Unfortunate; for someone with as much potential as her to always be stiffled by circumstance, be it the loss of her legs, her insufficient mana supply, or her crippling dependence on Mikuni Oriko. There isn't much else you can do, but to say "We'll fall back for now, and come up with another plan when we have the chance." You need to think of a way to get past the witch's illusions; or perhaps you could only send in those of your teammates who wouldn't be affected by them.

But you don't even know what else this witch might be capable of.

Nagatsuki Miyuki might be useful in getting past the witch's illusions; you seem to recall her having the ability to see through them; but what if she isn't strong enough by herself? Tomoe-san, Kyouko, and MIkuni Oriko are all also carrying their own burdens, and for all you know they might be rendered just as broken as Kirika if they were forced to confront some powerful negative image brought forth from their minds lain bare by the witch's divination. Then, if Nagatsuki MIyuki weren't enough, you could potentially be placing one or more of your allies in danger by asking them to go in with her.

You can iron out the details shortly. Right now, you think the priority should be on getting Kirika in a healthy state of mind again, as she's the only one leaving the labyrinth with any lasting harm from the witch's illusions. Or at least, what passes for a healthy state of mind for her.

You have no other choice.
You breathe in deep. You have to be the best sister you can be.

You kneel down beside Kirika, bracing yourself for the possibility that she'll reject you. You move before she has the chance to, though, wrapping your arms around her as tight as you can. "It's okay, sis," you say to her, as she buries her head into the crook of your shoulder. "I'm here for you."

"It's not fair! She was right there and she told me she didn't love me anymore!"

"I know," you say, rubbing Kirika's back with your hand. "I know. But the real Mikuni Oriko still loves you, and when you see her again you'll be able to love her as much as you want." Your words do little to comfort Kirika. "Are you and Kyouko busy right now?" you reach out to Nagatsuki MIyuki, hoping the one out to this witch on the team will be free.

"Kind of in the middle of something here," is the response you get. "Can it wait?"

"Yes, but also no. Kirika and I found a witch; it's not doing anything, so it isn't something we need you to urgently take care of if you're busy, but it has incredibly strong illusion powers and we need you because you're the only one who would be immune."


You're almost sure you can hear a sigh from Nagatsuki Miyuki. "I'll see what I can do when we're done here, but this one isn't going down so easily. You and Kure are going to have to be on your own until I can make it."

You aren't sure how long you wait like this, with your arms around Kirika as you do your best to comfort her, before Nagatsuki Miyuki arrives with Kyouko in tow. Her eyes glance around at the scene you've created- Two puella magi locked in a tight embrace, your servants standing around with nothing to do, and a deck of Tarot cards that is both on fire and encased in ice at the same time. She crosses her arms, and taps her foot against the ground as she asks you "So, care to tell me what happened her?"

"When Kirika and I went into the labyrinth, we found an empty room and a table with those Tarot cards," you say, pointing to the frozen-burning deck of cards lying on the ground. "We thought if we drew one, it might make the witch appear. It didn't. I thought we'd take the cards outside of the labyrinth to see what happened, and they burst into flames as soon as I let time resume. When we went back in to the labyrinth, we walked into the witch's illusion magic. I saw Walpurgisnacht, and Kirika saw MIkuni Oriko breaking up with her."

"I see." You know Nagatsuki Miyuki hasn't been a puella magi for very long; strange happenings like what you've just described probably aren't things she's had the chance to become accustomed to yet. "Um..." She crouches down, offering a few pats of her hand on Kirika's back. "There there," she says; you're not sure by how much her heart is in her words, but at least it's an attempt.

"So, ya called us in 'cuz ya couldn't deal with this shit on yer own?" Kyouko asks. "Izzat it?"

"Specifically, we needed Nagatsuki Miyuki because she's the only one of us who would be immune to the witch's illusion magic."

Kyouko rolls her eyes, but says "A'ight, long as I don't gotta do any more that's fine by me. Means more practice fer the new girl, right?"

"This after I did most of the hard work in taking down the last one?"

Kyouko "Pssh"es Nagatsuki Miyuki's complaint, responding with "That cat-looking thing would'a torn ya a new asshole if I hadn't burned its face off for ya."

"Okay! Thank you! Again!" Nagatsuki Miyuki huffs as Kyouko berates her. She draws her pistol from a holster at her waist, while at the same time calling her sword into her other hand. "Let me just get this over with so we can call it a night. I just hope it's weak enough for me to handle this on my own." "I hope Mikuni and Tomoe are having better luck than these two..."

[ ] Wat do?​
 
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[x] Deep Breath
-[x] Hug Kirika
--[x]" It's okay, sis. I'm here for you."
-[x] Get Miyuki over here to help with the Witch.
 
[X] NMS

Sure, why not. @NMS I'd probably edit into your vote something about Homura and Kirika looking through their Servants' eyes while giving them commands while Miyuki leads the charge into this Witch's Labyrinth, as Masters do.

I'm sure Miyuki will be glad to be in a position of power for once in comparison to the other Puella Magi.
 
[X] NMS

Sure, why not. @NMS I'd probably edit into your vote something about Homura and Kirika looking through their Servants' eyes while giving them commands while Miyuki leads the charge into this Witch's Labyrinth, as Masters do.

I'm sure Miyuki will be glad to be in a position of power for once in comparison to the other Puella Magi.

I don't think that Kirika would be up for that, nor do I think taking our attention off of her is a good idea.
 
I don't think that Kirika would be up for that, nor do I think taking our attention off of her is a good idea.
They won't be able to see the illusions through the eyes of their Servants, as they'd be using their Servants' eyes' "hardware" instead of their own. Just one benefit of Master vision. :p
 
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