Which is why the Nazis were unable to use slave labor for their... oh wait. I'm not saying it's that efficient, but the idea that it's this magic black touch where nothing made by slave labor can be better than something made by Free Hands... okay, I might be exaggerating the perspective a little.

But I don't have that much difficulty buying it? It's stupid and inefficient, but in a very human way, and it can get "decent" results.
It seems I have to keep repeating this:

Slave/forced labour works okay when you need simple tasks done. Digging wealth out of the ground, moving heavy things from place to place, even a bit of lumber or metal work.

But something as complicated, technical, and critical as building a warship? Hell no.
 
I still find the whole thing of rogue one weird just because I remember the old EU where the guy who designed the death star apparently both wasn't a slave and personally felt the emperor's wraith rather brutally given the emperor tortured him to death with the force then had him cloned so he could torture the clones to death until he got his frustrations out and then had some else someone design a new death star.

It also seemed to run counter to the original movie which seemed to imply they hadn't blown up any planets before Lea's home planet.
 
I still find the whole thing of rogue one weird just because I remember the old EU where the guy who designed the death star apparently both wasn't a slave and personally felt the emperor's wraith rather brutally given the emperor tortured him to death with the force then had him cloned so he could torture the clones to death until he got his frustrations out and then had some else someone design a new death star.

It also seemed to run counter to the original movie which seemed to imply they hadn't blown up any planets before Lea's home planet.
And then there was a separate EU canon where it was designed by quasi-enslaved alien geniuses at the Maw facility, like the Sun Crusher and World Devastators. The EU was a giant mess of contradictory silliness.
 
And then there was a separate EU canon where it was designed by quasi-enslaved alien geniuses at the Maw facility, like the Sun Crusher and World Devastators. The EU was a giant mess of contradictory silliness.

Well yes though it was at least mostly coherent organized mess compared to lets say the Star Trek EU. For the most part I find I prefer the earlier books like the Thrawn trilogy, the X-wing Trilogy, The Hand of Thrawn duology and I Jedi to the later books specially once you get into the confused mess that is the Extra Galactic invasion and what came afterwards and the prequel set books.
 
Well yes though it was at least mostly coherent organized mess compared to lets say the Star Trek EU. For the most part I find I prefer the earlier books like the Thrawn trilogy, the X-wing Trilogy, The Hand of Thrawn duology and I Jedi to the later books specially once you get into the confused mess that is the Extra Galactic invasion and what came afterwards and the prequel set books.
Uh. This particular contradictory mess is from the early Star Wars books. The same author even if I recall right.

This is one of my major bugbears about the EU fandom- this weird idea that somehow the pre-NJO stuff was all awesome high quality shit, mostly because they only really remember X-wing and Zahn. And then there's me going 'but what about the shit show that was the Corellia Trilogy and The Crystal Star?' And that's the low lying fruit- there's more. A lot more.

In all honesty, with a few exceptions (Traviss, I will never stop flogging you for this, and Jedi Trial is just unreadable) in universe consistency goes way up around the time the NJO and prequel novels came out. Course, we also got KOTOR and tech stasis around the same time, so win some, lose some. My point is more all the EU has been a quality rollercoaster for most of its lifespan, and saying 'it just got silly and confusing around the NJO' tends to make me roll my eyes at the obvious cherry picking of books.
 
Last edited:
But something as complicated, technical, and critical as building a warship? Hell no.
Ok, sorry for the double post. But well... are you actually familiar with warships?

Becuase yes, there are high complexity parts to it. There's also 'run cable from A to B' and 'weld these parts together' and 'lay down flooring'.

Ship building is a huge, labour intensive job, and not all of it requires high level skill sets.

Also, if I recall right the Imperial Japan used POWs to work on some aspects of ship building in WW2. Might be remembering it wrong, I no longer have access to that book, but there was definitely a section about Canadian POWs getting taken to a shipyard.
 
Uh. This particular contradictory mess is from the early Star Wars books. The same author even if I recall right.

This is one of my major bugbears about the EU fandom- this weird idea that somehow the pre-NJO stuff was all awesome high quality shit, mostly because they only really remember X-wing and Zahn. And then there's me going 'but what about the shit show that was the Corellia Trilogy and The Crystal Star?' And that's the low lying fruit- there's more. A lot more.

In all honesty, with a few exceptions (Traviss, I will never stop flogging you for this, and Jedi Trial is just unreadable) in universe consistency goes way up around the time the NJO and prequel novels came out. Course, we also got KOTOR and tech stasis around the same time, so win some, lose some. My point is more all the EU has been a quality rollercoaster for most of its lifespan, and saying 'it just silly and confusing around the NJO' tends to make me roll my eyes at the obvious cherry picking of books.

My preference to the older books has nothing do with all of them somehow being all high qualify(though I did read the Crystal star even if I found it really weird and I still own a copy of the splinter of the minds eye and even copies of the original novelizations of the original movies) a but the fact I found nothing enjoyable about the New Jedi Order and especially its sequel series like legacy of the force and fate of the Jedi while many of the older books I do find quite enjoyable to read.
 
IMO consistence of the comics and similar rose when the prequel trilogy hit, while for the novels the change from Bantam to Del Rey caused it go from 'spotty but usually fun' to 'overly long main plotlines often with some major problems, plus books outside the main plotlines which were often better but there was still a level of inconsistent quality.'
 
Balance fallacy!

"Good and evil must be balanced, dark and light are both equally bad, if you save a puppy you must also kill a puppy, and it's Black-and-White morality if things are just, you know, bad?"
 
Balance fallacy!

"Good and evil must be balanced, dark and light are both equally bad, if you save a puppy you must also kill a puppy, and it's Black-and-White morality if things are just, you know, bad?"
It's more about accepting that there's important things on both Light and Dark and that the extremes of both are horrible in different ways. Again, I am relentlessly pissed off about proactive decision making being associated with Dark=Evil.

It's usually handled a lot better when it's expressed as Chaos vs. Order, although I also despise Chaos=Evil. Much more than Dark=Evil because it's far more philosophical and even more demeaning of fundamental parts of human nature.
 
It's more about accepting that there's important things on both Light and Dark and that the extremes of both are horrible in different ways. Again, I am relentlessly pissed off about proactive decision making being associated with Dark=Evil.

It's usually handled a lot better when it's expressed as Chaos vs. Order, although I also despise Chaos=Evil. Much more than Dark=Evil because it's far more philosophical and even more demeaning of fundamental parts of human nature.
I was considering writing up a world where culture evolved in a way to consider darkness, rain, thunderstorms and such to be "good", and sunlight, day and the clear sky to be "evil". It wouldn't actually be that way metaphysically, just culturally.
 
It's more about accepting that there's important things on both Light and Dark and that the extremes of both are horrible in different ways. Again, I am relentlessly pissed off about proactive decision making being associated with Dark=Evil.

It's usually handled a lot better when it's expressed as Chaos vs. Order, although I also despise Chaos=Evil. Much more than Dark=Evil because it's far more philosophical and even more demeaning of fundamental parts of human nature.
... literally none of this is what Laurent spoke about, though? He didn't speak about the associations of evil, but about forcing "grey" situations and bothsame, even when it makes on sense.
 
... literally none of this is what Laurent spoke about, though? He didn't speak about the associations of evil, but about forcing "grey" situations and bothsame, even when it makes on sense.
Like with my post supporting Grey Jedi, the post is more about why the thing he dislikes happens than denying what he says. Hell, my post about the form of Grey Jedi I support the existence of included exactly what he was complaining about because that actually does make for a plausible use case of high-end use of both sides of the Force. I hate the balance fallacy, too, but I like actual balances of forces because of room for nuance.
 
Like with my post supporting Grey Jedi, the post is more about why the thing he dislikes happens than denying what he says. Hell, my post about the form of Grey Jedi I support the existence of included exactly what he was complaining about because that actually does make for a plausible use case of high-end use of both sides of the Force. I hate the balance fallacy, too, but I like actual balances of forces because of room for nuance.
Oh god.

Look, there are ways to use yin and yang in Star Wars- it's actually fucking easy if you do even basic research- but they don't map to good/evil. The most sane and broadly applicable definition of the Dark Side I've seen is that it is those extremes at either end, or in other words, when things are unbalanced.

And yes, I know not all of the EU uses this interpretation. But at least as far as the core media goes, the Dark Side isn't exactly an external corrupting force. It's you: your darkness, your capacity for evil. The Dark Side might help it along, but at the end of the day, it is you.

And if accepting and controlling the darker side of one's nature makes one a Grey Jedi, Mace Windu is a Grey Jedi. There are issues with that.
 
The most sane and broadly applicable definition of the Dark Side I've seen is that it is those extremes at either end, or in other words, when things are unbalanced.
...Except basic sample size of Dark Side users disproves this because they are all using cruelty. There's no examples of self destructive empathy among Dark Side use. And it's the Dark Side, meaning it lies at an opposite extreme to the Light Side.
 
...Except basic sample size of Dark Side users disproves this because they are all using cruelty. There's no examples of self destructive empathy among Dark Side use. And it's the Dark Side, meaning it lies at an opposite extreme to the Light Side.
Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
Sorry I couldn't keep myself from using that quote.
Still fits though
 
Last edited:
...Except basic sample size of Dark Side users disproves this because they are all using cruelty. There's no examples of self destructive empathy among Dark Side use. And it's the Dark Side, meaning it lies at an opposite extreme to the Light Side.
Fun fact: there was no Light Side in Lucas' drafts. It's an EU creation.

You will find many of the truths we cling to are dependant on our point of view.

Besides, I can name a non cruel Dark sider: Darth Vader.

Vader is not cruel. He is brutal, unfettered, and terrifyingly direct, but he doesn't care enough to be cruel- or rather, it gets in the way of his directness.

Or perhaps you would prefer Kar Vastor. He is not cruel, so much as he is uncaring. The jungle does what it must to survive.

And then there is Vilia Calimondra, a Sith Lord who turned her grandchildren against each other so they would be strong enough to face the galaxy.

Amazing what you can find with research.
 
Last edited:
...Except basic sample size of Dark Side users disproves this because they are all using cruelty. There's no examples of self destructive empathy among Dark Side use. And it's the Dark Side, meaning it lies at an opposite extreme to the Light Side.
Star Wars' main consistent setup has not been a Dark Side vs. Light Side axis - it's usually been Dark Side vs. everything else. It's basically corruption from health.

Obviously, there have been all sorts of deviation frm this over the years though. Kotor did use a LS/DS axis, but largely because it's an rpg setup and they had to make relevant considerations. (And in 2 possibly to outline Kreia's own delusions of the way the world works). And iirc, whoever was writing Vergere tried to go for a 'DS isn't so bad dynamic', but that didn't last past the writer's tenure... whiiich resulted in Jacen Solo's transition from morally ambiguous to evil. Isn't authorial warfare fun?~
 
Obviously, there have been all sorts of deviation frm this over the years though. Kotor did use a LS/DS axis, but largely because it's an rpg setup and they had to make relevant considerations. (And in 2 possibly to outline Kreia's own delusions of the way the world works). And iirc, whoever was writing Vergere tried to go for a 'DS isn't so bad dynamic', but that didn't last past the writer's tenure... whiiich resulted in Jacen Solo's transition from morally ambiguous to evil. Isn't authorial warfare fun?~
Stover wrote Traitor. Needless to say, there is more nuance then 'DS isn't so bad' becuase that's Stover's trademark.
 
I'll freely admit it's been a very long time, so I'll defer to you on that.
You might be recalling Jacen claiming that the old Jedi temple was built on a nexus of dark energy after he fried a bunch of Vong, which Vergere implied wasn't the case; he'd just twisted the energy naturally occurring around him into something malicious and harmful because of his own wretched mental state.
 
I remember one particularly ludicrous bit in the EU, where there was this pre-Jedi planet that had a light side moon and dark side moon, and students who went too far to the light side or dark side would be sent to the respective moons until they atoned.

"Sorry, Timmy, you're just too kind and peaceful inside! Until you learn to be more of a prick to others, it's to the moon with you!"
 
His directness often directly plays into cruelty. Torturing Han to lure Luke in, for example.
Yeah, true. I was more going for the fact he never really goes out of his way to be cruel. It's a tool to him, not an end, and one he doesn't really care about one way or the other.

It's pretty damn hard to detach cruelty from evil, actually- inflicting pain on others is just to bound up in the concept.
 
Back
Top