Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
Technically, the Systems Alliance is exactly the same: separate nations still exists and the Alliance is there only to represent Humanity as a whole.
Cliches you can't stand
- Thread starter Mithras
- Start date
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Nooot quite. The Earth nations still exist. But the colonies are System Alliance jurisdictions, even if some have been set up by Earth nations. As such, the System Alliance IS a state, with Parliament and Prime Minister and everything (and FPTP election system, so British model, apparently). But at the same time, since only a fraction of humanity lives in space (if we go by typical colony population numbers), the Alliance would never be able to rival the other powers if it didn't have the backing of the Earth nations.
So I can only conclude that the SA is some sort of hybrid between a country in its own right, and an alliance that includes the Earth countries as members.
- Location
- Singapore
Its evil
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Well duh, this is WH40K. Of course it is. So is love, and honour, and passion.
The strawman utilitarian that wants to kill you and your sister and your little dog too for a nebulous greater good.
It makes it so damn hard to actually do effective altruism in real life when people immediately make associations to Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard. Please pardon me for trying to use the world's very limited resources to save as many lives as possible, instead of just the very expensive ones that happen to be near you instead of six thousand miles away.
Similarly, the "utilitarian" that immediately goes "welp, can't save everyone, better murder a village for the world!" That's not a utilitarian, that's a monster. A utilitarian is someone who, yes, believes that ten lives are worth more than one, but also that every life has value, and therefore tries to save as many people as they can. You don't go running around murdering people until there's no other choice.
Seriously, how many actual utilitarians even exist in fiction? I can only really think of, like... Emiya Shirou? Not Kiritsugu, Mr. "Evacuating the Hotel is Getting Soft" is absolutely a strawman. A fun strawman, but a strawman.
It makes it so damn hard to actually do effective altruism in real life when people immediately make associations to Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard. Please pardon me for trying to use the world's very limited resources to save as many lives as possible, instead of just the very expensive ones that happen to be near you instead of six thousand miles away.
Similarly, the "utilitarian" that immediately goes "welp, can't save everyone, better murder a village for the world!" That's not a utilitarian, that's a monster. A utilitarian is someone who, yes, believes that ten lives are worth more than one, but also that every life has value, and therefore tries to save as many people as they can. You don't go running around murdering people until there's no other choice.
Seriously, how many actual utilitarians even exist in fiction? I can only really think of, like... Emiya Shirou? Not Kiritsugu, Mr. "Evacuating the Hotel is Getting Soft" is absolutely a strawman. A fun strawman, but a strawman.
On the other hand, utilitarian approach is often portrayed as monstrous. They don't have to be actively killing people to be shown as evil - they simply need to be confronted with heroes who manage to pull off the impossible.
Seemingly there are only two options, one of which is only slightly less cruel than the other? Worry not, turns out there's another way, relying on billion to one chances of events going exactly the right way. How foolish and evil of everyone not to immediately choose such option - even though negative consequences dwarf all the other choices by an order of magnitude. Or maybe it was an absurdly complex plan, that should fail hundreds of times in any realistic scenario - even if merely from author being unable to remember half of the steps - but not in fiction land.
Seemingly there are only two options, one of which is only slightly less cruel than the other? Worry not, turns out there's another way, relying on billion to one chances of events going exactly the right way. How foolish and evil of everyone not to immediately choose such option - even though negative consequences dwarf all the other choices by an order of magnitude. Or maybe it was an absurdly complex plan, that should fail hundreds of times in any realistic scenario - even if merely from author being unable to remember half of the steps - but not in fiction land.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
People often make strawmen out of ethical systems they don't like though for my part I am not fond of conquentialism ethical systems. I tend to view what makes something good or evil as not being not the results but the intent behind the action not the results.
Still I suppose it possible to instead of it simply being the heroes pulling off the impossible you can have the utilitarian not comprehend that it could be done any other way or refuse to take even a mild risk of things going differently out of fear of oppose consequences of failure which would make them more of a tragic figure than simply a monster.
Still I suppose it possible to instead of it simply being the heroes pulling off the impossible you can have the utilitarian not comprehend that it could be done any other way or refuse to take even a mild risk of things going differently out of fear of oppose consequences of failure which would make them more of a tragic figure than simply a monster.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
Utilitarianism doesn't work in most fiction because most fiction concerns individuals, and utilitarianism is only really useful in a group of large scale state context where the people making the decisions have to account for the needs of large groups of people using detailed information they've gather.
Using utilitarianism as your guide for your individual conduct... uh... doesn't fucking work? And you'd probably end up acting like a crazy person or a piece of shit.
EDIT: I mean, big part of the reason why people don't like utilitarianism is that it comes off to them as some smarty pants pisshound making decisions for large groups of people without their input and not giving a shit what happens to one as long as it benefits the group. Which isn't what it really is, but armchair utilitarian rhetoric does not help, because they often don't distinguish between the utilitarianism as a methodology for large scale decision making and as a general philosophy, and frankly some of them really do act like the pieces of shit people think they are in discussions.
Using utilitarianism as your guide for your individual conduct... uh... doesn't fucking work? And you'd probably end up acting like a crazy person or a piece of shit.
EDIT: I mean, big part of the reason why people don't like utilitarianism is that it comes off to them as some smarty pants pisshound making decisions for large groups of people without their input and not giving a shit what happens to one as long as it benefits the group. Which isn't what it really is, but armchair utilitarian rhetoric does not help, because they often don't distinguish between the utilitarianism as a methodology for large scale decision making and as a general philosophy, and frankly some of them really do act like the pieces of shit people think they are in discussions.
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.... No, utilitarianism works just fine as a guide for individual citizens. It just tells you things that a lot of people don't want to hear, like "the amount of money you just spent on your nice new car could've saved thirty people if you had spent ten minutes trying."
The Victorian
Elven Supremacist
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
On the subject of ethics, one stance I utterly loathe (hate, detest, despise, condemn) is, "Both sides are equally right and wrong, therefore true wisdom lies in placing yourself squarely in the middle and condemning both sides as 'fanatics' or 'extremists.'" It's particularly insidious, because on the surface it makes you look like someone who's "reasonable" and "moderate," but in reality it's just some false equivalence bullshit hiding what can be best be described as a sort of apathetic contrarianism.
The Witcher and Dragon Age II bloody adore this. Scoia'Tael or Order of the Flaming Rose? Mages or Templars? How many people played through these games and thought "Both sides are complete wankers; I don't want to side with either of them!"? Bioshock did much the same thing. The first suggests "Maybe Objectivism is a poor foundation for a society," and then the sequel comes along and says "BUUUUUUUUT collectivism is just as bad, mmkay!"
The Witcher and Dragon Age II bloody adore this. Scoia'Tael or Order of the Flaming Rose? Mages or Templars? How many people played through these games and thought "Both sides are complete wankers; I don't want to side with either of them!"? Bioshock did much the same thing. The first suggests "Maybe Objectivism is a poor foundation for a society," and then the sequel comes along and says "BUUUUUUUUT collectivism is just as bad, mmkay!"
- Location
- The Old Dominion
I admit I couldn't bring myself to side with the mages in dragon age II though to be honest it was the first time in a game I wished I could have gone with a kill them all approach or at least prevented the grand cleric's assassin Anders from killing her and lord knows how many other people... Anders who went from a likable character in dragon age: awaking to an someone who by the final act I could have cheerfully burned at the stake in Dragon age II.
I mean I can understand mages not wanting to be controlled but the mages in Dragon age II and especially Inquisition did a wonderful job of showing just why there needed to be anti-magic force to watch the lot even if said force needed far better controls over it.
I mean I can understand mages not wanting to be controlled but the mages in Dragon age II and especially Inquisition did a wonderful job of showing just why there needed to be anti-magic force to watch the lot even if said force needed far better controls over it.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
I feel like this is missing the point. Neutrality is the best solution in this situation not because both sides are equally good and bad, but because the entire situation is a fucked up cycle of violence and Geralt jumping in sword a'swingin' isn't going to make things better.
Though to be fair, the first game doesn't do as good a job as the books in showing why the Scoia'Tel are only making things worse for everyone. And the series was left better of when Witcher 3 came around and Geralt stopped getting involved in geopolitical bullshit and started looking after the loved ones he completely forgot about.
Mages vs Templars is... like, everyone is escalating the situation for no fucking reason because everyone in Kirkwall is crazy and stupid.
Well yeah, if you assume somebody is some upper middle class guy who probably should be donating to charity. But instead let's replace "nice new car" with "any car, at all", or "rent", or "college debts and health insurance". Sure, fucking yourself over for the sake of the common good of society might be considered noble, but that doesn't make this cool. This is why charities and the welfare state exist, so individuals don't have to burn themselves to make thing better for everyone.
- Location
- Europe
"Allright guys, I believe that Templars are crazy and you are not all going to explode into demons given half an excuse. We're in a defensible position and there is nothing but allies in this room"
"I AM SO DONE." *Explodes into blood demon and starts trying to kill allies*
Yeah, that game was stupid in some ways.
The Victorian
Elven Supremacist
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Which is what I was talking about, really. I never played the The Wild Hunt (I hated the first two games, so my chances of enjoying the third are almost nil, plus Geralt is a bloody awful character who needs to be thrown into the trashbin of character archetypes along with every other snarling, grizzled, po-faced anti-hero), but the first two games just beat into your head repeatedly, with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, that humans are wankers, more monstrous than the monster themselves, and the possibility of doing any lasting good is almost non-existant, so the only sensible thing to do is to just not care about anything beyond your immediate concerns.
One Polish commentor on reddit put it better than I could have:
DocSpooky
Humblest in the World
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm not a utilitarian, but I'm kind of flabbergasted by this whole conversation because everyone here seems to be missing the point by a country mile. Utilitarianism isn't about some sort of calculated "if I do this, then X number of people will benefit" it literally just boils down to acting in a way that you think will make someone happier. It's not foregoing having a car because people in Africa will need it more, it's telling a lie to spare someone's feelings because you think that will make them happier than telling the truth, even if deontological ethics puts lying as an inherently bad action.
Mortis Nuntius
Theon Killjoy
- Location
- United Kingdom
That's not the way I've heard it anywhere else tbh.
"Greatest good for the greatest number" is how its literally almost always been described in my hearing.
- Location
- Void of Observation
Rule 3: not being civil at all
An Occurance! Your 'Yuuka Kazami's Disapproval' Quality has increased to 100!
Con-fucking-gratluations, you have proven that you have known nothing about WH40K, other than relying on the usual memes and stupid shit that everybody parrots.
Adding to my disgust, you explicitly want to write a fic that bashes a faction that you know nothing about, and do in such a self-righteous way that, quite ironically, makes you one of the arrogant knife-ears you love writing about, in quite possibly the most stupidest way possible.
I mean, fucking hell, the average human in WH40k is neither ignorant, fanatical, or stupid as you describe it. They don't go around constantly worshipping the Emperor other than doing their prayers (and they aren't always enforced), and those who do, quite have a reason for it because worshiping the Emperor is guaranteed to ward off Chaos especially if you aren't a Grey Knight. Hell, Adeptus Astartes, the 'protagonists' of the setting, don't even worship the Imperial Cult. Which also means that they aren't genocidal, because they don't have the fanatical desire to do so, unless they happen to be Sisters of Battle or Inquisitors. And the ignorance? Bitch, if I told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos, I guarantee you, half the fucking place would erupt into Daemon Worlds, because there would be tons more worshippers joining Chaotic Cults because they don't actually see the consequences.
Of course, the fact that you see 'superstition' as some sort of ultimate sin probably speaks to what kind of person you are.
So yeah, you know, before you want to write your trashy garbage, how about educating yourself on the setting you are writing about?
Of course, the fact that you see 'superstition' as some sort of ultimate sin probably speaks to what kind of person you are.
So yeah, you know, before you want to write your trashy garbage, how about educating yourself on the setting you are writing about?
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
Damn, that roast.
An Occurance! Your 'Yuuka Kazami's Disapproval' Quality has increased to 100!
Con-fucking-gratluations, you have proven that you have known nothing about WH40K, other than relying on the usual memes and stupid shit that everybody parrots.
Adding to my disgust, you explicitly want to write a fic that bashes a faction that you know nothing about, and do in such a self-righteous way that, quite ironically, makes you one of the arrogant knife-ears you love writing about, in quite possibly the most stupidest way possible.
I mean, fucking hell, the average human in WH40k is neither ignorant, fanatical, or stupid as you describe it. They don't go around constantly worshipping the Emperor other than doing their prayers (and they aren't always enforced), and those who do, quite have a reason for it because worshiping the Emperor is guaranteed to ward off Chaos especially if you aren't a Grey Knight. Hell, Adeptus Astartes, the 'protagonists' of the setting, don't even worship the Imperial Cult. Which also means that they aren't genocidal, because they don't have the fanatical desire to do so, unless they happen to be Sisters of Battle or Inquisitors. And the ignorance? Bitch, if I told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos, I guarantee you, half the fucking place would erupt into Daemon Worlds, because there would be tons more worshippers joining Chaotic Cults because they don't actually see the consequences.
Of course, the fact that you see 'superstition' as some sort of ultimate sin probably speaks to what kind of person you are.
So yeah, you know, before you want to write your trashy garbage, how about educating yourself on the setting you are writing about?
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
*shrug* The third games pretty substantially different from the first two in terms of tone and characterization. In small ways, but pretty impactful ones.
What? WHAAAAAT?
Humanity being a fanatical clusterfuck of superstition and ignorance is like, fuckin', one of the cornerstones of the franchise! Warhammer writers have hammered it in over and over and over again! It's in the intro text of the entire franchise!
How? How do you people miss half the entire point of your own favourite setting?! Hoooooooooooooooowwwwwwww.... how do you do this? You people are breaking my brain!
Also, dude. This fictional slur?
Is first used in Dragon Age, atleast to my knowledge, by an aristocrat who has a bunch of elven women carried off to have a fucking rape party. So, uh, not cool?
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Man, the salt from your post is enough to turn the Med into a giant Dead Sea. Oh how dare he portray humanity in a negative light! What an affront to HFY!
And anyway, the Imperium has in fact been described that way. The majority of the Imperial populace lives in hiveworlds, and you can bet your ass hiveworlds are exactly like that - if you're lucky you have a 16h workday interparsed with propaganda and church service, and then die of dysentry in your 30s. If you're unlucky, you're in the underhive and might get killed for the clothes on your body any minute.
Some authors have tried to tone the description of the Imperium down a bit, but that to me is just apologia. The Imperium is Theocratic North Korea In Space. They are not the good guys.
- Location
- Void of Observation
>implying that matters any more
Let me use an example, shall I? Let's open For the Emperor, 1st book of the Ciaphas Cain series, one of the bigger favorites of WH40K.
The Imperial Guard is sent to an Imperial World that is near Tau Empire space, to keep the planet from defecting.
They arrive, and they don't start shooting.
The Tau Ambassador gets shot by a Genestealer Cult. So yeah, the fighting gonna begi-
Oh hang on, the main character is offering a flag of truce to the alien, bet his men aren't too happy about it-
Holy fucking shit, everyone agrees with him because no one needs another war for the Imperium!
And later, they meet up to help fight off the Genestealers and Tyranids!
"B-B-But I thought they were all xenocidal maniacs??!!!"
Dude, that thing was written a long long fucking time ago. While its an abstract representation of the setting, its also outdated in a sense. WH40K has been slowly growing into a more nuanced setting of the years for a very long time.
Also, this isn't the only example. If you do a simple trawl of the games, you will notice that the Imperium has worked with xenos a lot.
Triggerhappy
Stick with Trigger and You'll Make it Through
- Location
- SoCal
As funny as this roasting is. It's entirely possible to get that impression, not unfairly, if you've only read the d-tier Black Library writers you find off the shelves of a used bookstore.
And here's your first mistake. Assuming someone's experience with 40k include Ciaphas Cain, a book series that specifically averts many of the lunacies of other 40k author rather than, say, Chapter War.
And both Cain and Amberly make allusions that such idiots do in fact exist and are a constant self inflicted wound upon the ass of the Imperium. Up to, and including, one exherpt implying Amberly had been sent to assassinate some of them over the years.
Don't get me wrong, I like the quality 40k fluff, and the older material that depicts the Imperium as labyrinthian and corrupt, but it's evil ultimately beaurocratic in nature.
But let's not pretend that GW doesn't pay people to know better, and then cut them loose to write utter shit anyways.
That has not been my experience. Or rather, it has been my experience that they've been handing over more of the creative work to quality writers, but they are far from fully filling in the pit they dug when they started to take themselves too seriously.
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The Victorian
Elven Supremacist
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's also a basic storytelling pragmatism.
Most readers won't identify with a protagonist who's a murderous, fanatical fascist. Hence why characters like Ciaphas Cain or Ibram Gaunt are depicted as being largely upstanding individuals. But given the sheer size of the Imperium, these people are the exception, not the rule.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
Ciaphas Cain is literally a Blackadderesque tongue in cheek romp that makes fun of it's own source materiel! It's not as fucked up as the rest of 40K because it's supposed to be funny.
Meanwhile, the Imperium likes to make utility drones... out of skulls! They take the skulls of dead people and turn them into floaty robots for no fucking reason! Why do they do that?! It's a robot! Just make a robot! The Imperium is a giant pile of fucking crazy people! It's intended to be a dystopia!
Warhammer is fuggin' based off of 80's and 90's British comics that were all about crazy over the top nightmare dystopias used for social satire. It directly comes from Judge Dredd and Nemesis the fucking Warlock!
... aaaaaaaaaaghhhhhhh...