How rotten would a human have to be to sell out the rest of Humanity?
Well, I mean... it depends? On what the aliens are like, on the traitor's motives, and on what the aliens plan to do.

Consider the Tau in WH40k for example. Yes, they have their faults, maybe even to the degree that they'd be the bad guys in other settings, but compared to the Imperium... well, whatever the Tau may or may not do to their human subjects, the Imperium does worse. So why shouldn't a human "sell out" to the Tau there?

Or what about human characters who have been greatly wronged by humans, but helped greatly by aliens? In my Mass Effect fics, there is a character who was forced through BAaT as child... a government program to exploit her powers which basically amounted to abuse and torture, with the aim of "human power". Meanwhile, during the last years, she has received some much needed aid from some asari. So at one point she flatly says if ever she has to make such a decision, she'd rather save the asari than the humans. A pure hypothetical, but it shows her attitude. But wouldn't that be understandable?

I think even on the level of species, "race traitor" is still completely silly. That doesn't change just because there is no interfertility. You should always side with those who deserve it, those who have the better standing, and not your "own race".
 
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HFY truly is some stupid stuff. That said, I've considered how bad it'd be if somebody in a galactic setting started working with the extraterrestrials to screw over everybody else. I mean, 'race traitor' is silly in a modern context, but in the future that could probably be the single worst charge next to working with the machines to wipe out all organic life. How rotten would a human have to be to sell out the rest of Humanity?
Highly dependent on what they consider themselves as.

Like if I'm a proud member of the Xithra Republic and most of humanity is in the EUF which are my(by extension anyway) enemies then I can't really sell-out now can I?

I could be a genocide supporting dickhead, though.
 
Well, I do think those things are connected, actually. Asari are supposed to have a working direct democracy? Well, clearly that is impossible and hence must be relativized in later installments with hints that in truth it's the Matriarchs which are in control.
No, I actually got this impression far earlier than ME3, as early as Mass Effect 1 and also additionally in ME2.

Here's the things that bothered me: for all that asari claim to have a working electronic direct democracy, there's a great amount of young asari being apparently completely devout followers of a specific Matriarch to the point of cultish devotion (Benezia being just one example, but there's also the courtesan on the citadel), and also a lot of emphasis is placed on deference towards the experience of Matriarchs. Aethyta in ME2 seems to have been a well-respected Matriarch, but apparently lost a lot of influence relatively quickly following a disagreement with other Matriarchs and decided to leave, feeling she couldn't get her voice heard. Liara repeatedly emphasises that it's actually rather difficult to rise up in the ranks of asari society if you face pureblood prejudice or don't do the socially accepted thing, and it's implied that many asari actually have very little individual influence until they reach a socially pre-determined threshold of experience, at which point you reach higher status. I found it interesting that Liara, barely out of the Maiden stage, is the only young asari we see that actually manages to gain a meteoric rise in influence in a very short period of time, and she does this outside of asari societal structures by becoming the Shadow Broker. We also have asari leaving their society to become mercenaries and pirates, which even seems to be expected to some degree so that they get "life experience" (and perhaps also get the most violent ones out of society's hair?), asari manipulating outsiders to kill potential competitors in their society, and brutal corporate competition on one of their main corporate worlds. Then we also have the Justicars, a system of half-religious enforcers and half-law enforcement that operate according to their own code, very few limitations, and are accorded respect not necessarily due to majority opinion, but because of ancient tradition and custom that do not seem to get questioned much.

This all painted to me the image of a society that was, well, rather fragmented between the various followers of Matriarchs that formed factions, and where majority opinion could force out critical minority opinions with fair ease. To me, the term "working democracy" also implies that you give a voice to the minority, that you can rise up in the ranks of and be valued by society without reaching a sort of arbitrary age or experience limit and gain followers without first becoming a Matriarch, and that you can enact change contrary to tradition and custom by actually being convincing, without being shouted down and forced out of government and out of the public's mind. The asari may well be democratic, but ever since I first played Mass Effect 1, I genuinely wondered whether their society was actually what I'd call a working democracy. There seemed to be concerning elements that pointed to their political system being quite troubled by a few problems.

This was my opinion independently of the revelations in Mass Effect 3 and the stupid HFY wank Mass Effect's writing engages in. I thought it was an interesting commentary on these kind of political systems, and considering the rise of populism and meme politics in recent years, I thought the topic has only become more and more relevant.

Of course, I might be thinking too much of this and the writers may not have thought this through at all, but it's an interesting way to look at things.
 
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(okay, I granted, them living 1000 years and all being biotics kinda push them into mary sue territory, but not their society)
I largely agree with the rest of Susano's points on Mass Effect, but I wanted to zero in on this comment for a largely different reason. I am becoming increasingly tired with the assumption that material advantages and powersets are what makes a Mary Sue. Or rather, since the term mary sue is largely meaningless nowadays, that a specific character or race having a disproportionate amount of advantages is inherently a bad thing. It merely imposes restrictions and additional levels of difficulty in how you structure and resolve a story, and in how they affect the setting around them.

The Asari may well be mary sues, or otherwise badly written, but it's not because they live for a thousand years, or because they're all varying level of biotic, or because they can reproduce with anything and are theoretically universally pansexual. It'd be in their behaviour within the story and how the rest of the setting responds to them. Like, for the sake of example, if the setting bent itself into a pretzel to present them as special and awesome and superior. Like a certain other race of bipedal simians I could name.
 
Per the background, yes, but that makes it even worse. That even such a humanity is hyped in some novels and so on...


Oh god, that problem in the ME fandom. Humanity is already getting ALL THE BREAKS, having an embassy basically immediately after first contact, rising to be a council power after just decades, out of nothing... and yet people still bitch about how dare other races/states be more powerful, why doesn't humanity just tell the Council to fuck off, and then al the AU fics where humanity is wanked and does... urrgh. People can't even take when humanity is doing merely very well for itself. It has to be the biggest, baddest out there. It's so disgusting.

And then the disdain for the asari in specific. The disbelief that a society could have a working direct democracy, while humanity doesn't. Yes, how dare humanity not have the best social order out there! Clearly that means the asari are either unrealistic or a marysuetopia (okay, I granted, them living 1000 years and all being biotics kinda push them into mary sue territory, but not their society) or decadent or whatever.

It's all just so... entitled and self-indulgent.

Huh, my problem is the opposite, that the Asari aren't nearly advanced enough.
For a race who got semi-uplifted 50.000 years ago, they aren't doing that well.

Well, either that or the 'Reapers come every 50.000 years' is bullshit.

BUT SUSANO YOU'RE A HUMAN DON'T YOU LIKE US WINNING?!?!?

BUT IF HUMANITY WENT INTO SPACE IT HAS ALREADY LOST!!1!:V
 
Per the background, yes, but that makes it even worse. That even such a humanity is hyped in some novels and so on...


Oh god, that problem in the ME fandom. Humanity is already getting ALL THE BREAKS, having an embassy basically immediately after first contact, rising to be a council power after just decades, out of nothing... and yet people still bitch about how dare other races/states be more powerful, why doesn't humanity just tell the Council to fuck off, and then al the AU fics where humanity is wanked and does... urrgh. People can't even take when humanity is doing merely very well for itself. It has to be the biggest, baddest out there. It's so disgusting.

And then the disdain for the asari in specific. The disbelief that a society could have a working direct democracy, while humanity doesn't. Yes, how dare humanity not have the best social order out there! Clearly that means the asari are either unrealistic or a marysuetopia (okay, I granted, them living 1000 years and all being biotics kinda push them into mary sue territory, but not their society) or decadent or whatever.

It's all just so... entitled and self-indulgent.

Personally I think the 'humanity gets all the breaks' thing is part of the problem.

If we didn't, and weren't yet a true peer, telling the council to shove off would be obviously stupid.

Since we keep getting breaks and are already one of the major powers, and obviously have a growth rate in power greater than anyone, going it on our own seems far more plausible, especially if we expect the writers to keep giving us big breaks.


Well, I was more talking about books, but yeah. At least in Hollywood movies (and I'm talking about space-opera and assorted "it's 200 years in the future") it's not literally the US. It might be a system that looks like it, that acts like it and share a vague "western" philosphy — but at least they have the decency of pretending it's not just the US.

Except Stargate, I guess — though it's supposed to be set in our time.

Hm, which movies are you think of?

The Independence Day series I assume, any others?
 
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I think all this hate for the Imperium ignores that there was not one but two golden ages of humanity which by no means were perfect but certainly came across as better than the alternative in every meaningful sense which were brought low by galaxy wrecking events powerful enough to tear literal holes in the universe undertaken by Gods trying to fuck humanity's shit up. Its best soldiers and statesmen are dead or missing, its God is a corpse and its faced with the logistics of fighting existence itself along with its more mundane enemies in a galaxy where in effect its every world for itself for months or years at a time.

Of course its a trainwreck. That its still in some semblance of existence and that there is some small flicker of hope that maybe just maybe the end can be prevented is impressive on its own.

I mean big blue's return at the darkest hour seems to hint that either the Universe is about to end or we might finally see a lasting victory. The Imperium needs to be seen as the product of thousands of years of disasters at its absolute low point rather than what even itself wants or tries to be.
The problem is that some people insist everything the Imperium does is necessary and that any improvement over it would somehow doom everyone. A system that falls apart the moment the Emperor isn't around to control everything is a terrible system.
 
The problem is that some people insist everything the Imperium does is necessary and that any improvement over it would somehow doom everyone. A system that falls apart the moment the Emperor isn't around to control everything is a terrible system.

I'd say there is a case that in universe if something's not broken don't try and fix it and invite chaos in. When blind faith and inertia are forces that actively help protect you they're a bit more justifiable than usual. I'd say the Imperium needs massive reform at its heart and in terms of its communications and logistics with everything else probably following on after once the long term decline is averted. The Imperium was somewhat functional even after the Emperor bought it but then the Orks showed up, Chaos resurged and all its rivals hit their relative peaks at the same time and its leaders fucked off or died one by one and its institutions took repeated hammer blows over centuries or even longer. I can't think of any real life equivalent that's endured similar stresses so its impressive in its own way its lasted this long and big changes always carry the suspicion that its yet another heretical plot given how often Chaos disguises itself before showing its hand.

Out of universe however, yeah its in pitiful state. Definitely on the side cheering on some reforms but I think its worth reforming because as evil and stupid as it is its a product of the circumstances of its formation and the machinations of literal Gods trying to destroy it. If it falls there is nothing at all that will hold Chaos back. It would be refreshing to see genuine changes for the better now that the stasis is breaking down.
 
Hm, which movies are you think of?

The Independence Day series I assume, any others?
Well Independence Day (haven't seen the second) the example of USAFY, but it's also set in "our" time, so it's not what I had in mind.
But in term of space-opera films in the future....
...
...wait, do we even have recent space-op movies?
 
The problem with the Imperium is the same problem with any kind of societal security. We don't see what our tax dollars prevent, so depending on your point of view blowing a bunch of school children to bloody chunks with a drone strike can either be a regrettable action absolutely necessary for national security, or... y'know, a war crime. (pssst the second answer is the correct one)

It's the same bullshit with the Imperium. Because we don't actually have any sort of clear picture how vulnerable the Imperium really is the reasoning or lack thereof behind every single action those actions can be interpreted as either absolutely necessary or an example of the Imperium being monstrous depending on how much the Imperium appeals to you as a faction.

But, y'know, I'm skewed towards the latter because a lot of the justifications people throw out for every little shitty thing the Imperium does are completely contrived and arbitrary on a fundamental level. Like, oooh, if we don't Exterminatus the puppy planet they'll be taken over by Chaos and the Imperium will crumble! But what about he kitten planet were they just assassinated the cult leader and everything was fine? Uhh... shut up! It's like an Inquisition thing, you wouldn't understand.

Besides, the Imperium is, y'know, intended to be an over the top ridiculous dystopia showing the worst of the humanity as well as the dark side of some of our good qualities, and justifying everything the Imperium does and acting like fuckin' Inquisitor Crueleo Von Holocausta is really a reasonable guy trapped in bad circumstances is having your cake and eating it too. Like, I kinda like the Imperium as this ridiculous society that's not supposed to be emphasized with or taken entirely seriously.

Also, the unironic guff about how the Imperium represents hope against the darkness and shit is really just a whole bunch of not-even-crypto-fascist Ubermensch bullshit.
 
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The two are completely interchangable in 90% of cases and a very narrow slice at thaat. When most authors go HFY in stories they sure as shit not talking about black people in New Orleans or gay people in San Fran.

Yes, one thing I forgot to mention was that "Humanity, fuck yeah!" is usually a hair's breadth from "America, fuck yeah!" The qualities often used to describe humanity could easily describe how Americans see themselves: "Rugged individualists who pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and who prefer to GET SHIT DONE via military action instead of wasting time with diplomacy." And naturally, humans will be shown as far being far more individualistic than other races, who are usually depicted as a monoculture.
 
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Also, the unironic guff about how the Imperium represents hope against the darkness and shit is really just a whole bunch of not-even-crypto-fascist Ubermensch bullshit.

Hope in the setting that the opening narration states that there is no hope only the laughter of dark gods and unending war? The setting pretty much all but states that humanity is doomed and all that they are doing is delaying the inevitable to the point even the norse gods are telling them to throw in the towel? I can't imagine why anyone would see hope though as the Caiaphas Cain series shows there is certainly room for humor.
 
No, I actually got this impression far earlier than ME3, as early as Mass Effect 1 and also additionally in ME2.

Here's the things that bothered me: for all that asari claim to have a working electronic direct democracy, there's a great amount of young asari being apparently completely devout followers of a specific Matriarch to the point of cultish devotion (Benezia being just one example, but there's also the courtesan on the citadel), and also a lot of emphasis is placed on deference towards the experience of Matriarchs. Aethyta in ME2 seems to have been a well-respected Matriarch, but apparently lost a lot of influence relatively quickly following a disagreement with other Matriarchs and decided to leave, feeling she couldn't get her voice heard. Liara repeatedly emphasises that it's actually rather difficult to rise up in the ranks of asari society if you face pureblood prejudice or don't do the socially accepted thing, and it's implied that many asari actually have very little individual influence until they reach a socially pre-determined threshold of experience, at which point you reach higher status. I found it interesting that Liara, barely out of the Maiden stage, is the only young asari we see that actually manages to gain a meteoric rise in influence in a very short period of time, and she does this outside of asari societal structures by becoming the Shadow Broker. We also have asari leaving their society to become mercenaries and pirates, which even seems to be expected to some degree so that they get "life experience" (and perhaps also get the most violent ones out of society's hair?), asari manipulating outsiders to kill potential competitors in their society, and brutal corporate competition on one of their main corporate worlds. Then we also have the Justicars, a system of half-religious enforcers and half-law enforcement that operate according to their own code, very few limitations, and are accorded respect not necessarily due to majority opinion, but because of ancient tradition and custom that do not seem to get questioned much.

This all painted to me the image of a society that was, well, rather fragmented between the various followers of Matriarchs that formed factions, and where majority opinion could force out critical minority opinions with fair ease. To me, the term "working democracy" also implies that you give a voice to the minority, that you can rise up in the ranks of and be valued by society without reaching a sort of arbitrary age or experience limit and gain followers without first becoming a Matriarch, and that you can enact change contrary to tradition and custom by actually being convincing, without being shouted down and forced out of government and out of the public's mind. The asari may well be democratic, but ever since I first played Mass Effect 1, I genuinely wondered whether their society was actually what I'd call a working democracy. There seemed to be concerning elements that pointed to their political system being quite troubled by a few problems.

This was my opinion independently of the revelations in Mass Effect 3 and the stupid HFY wank Mass Effect's writing engages in. I thought it was an interesting commentary on these kind of political systems, and considering the rise of populism and meme politics in recent years, I thought the topic has only become more and more relevant.

Of course, I might be thinking too much of this and the writers may not have thought this through at all, but it's an interesting way to look at things.

There's also the fact that the Asari aren't a unified polity. It's like asking why the United Nations is all over the place in government policy and culture depending on where on Earth you are.

The Asari make a lot more sense if you assume they /aren't/ a mono culture and that if things are confusing it's because you're trying to fit a half dozen divergent cultures and governments into a single framework.

Of course the writing seems to treat them as a unified monoculture even through other places have indications that they are anything but.
 
There's also the fact that the Asari aren't a unified polity. It's like asking why the United Nations is all over the place in government policy and culture depending on where on Earth you are.

The Asari make a lot more sense if you assume they /aren't/ a mono culture and that if things are confusing it's because you're trying to fit a half dozen divergent cultures and governments into a single framework.

Of course the writing seems to treat them as a unified monoculture even through other places have indications that they are anything but.
Sometimes it's like the guys writing the Codex forgot to tell what they were writing to the rest of the team.
 
NHere's the things that bothered me: for all that asari claim to have a working electronic direct democracy, there's a great amount of young asari being apparently completely devout followers of a specific Matriarch to the point of cultish devotion
My impression is that while in theory its a direct democracy, in practice each matriarch is somewhere between an elected representative and a party unto themselves, with most people just voting for whatever their matriarch says to vote for. Sometimes shifts might happen due to matriarchs changing their mind on policy, sometimes shift might happen due to one matriarch losing influence and having a bunch of followers defect, sometimes a matriarch might end up throwing their weight behind another until you end up with a de facto political party.

Its kind of interesting at a structural level, because even if we had direct democracy as our main electoral, it would still probably be "check what your favored political party's position is on the topic" if you didn't already make up your mind not "check your favored politician's position on the topic". Its something you'd only expect in a society where people could live basically forever and build up a lasting cult of personality or far reaching political influence off of it.
 
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Its kind of interesting at a structural level, because even if we had direct democracy as our main electoral, it would still probably be "check what your favored political party's position is on the topic" if you didn't already make up your mind not "check your favored politician's position on the topic". Its something you'd only expect in a society where people could live basically forever and build up a lasting cult of personality or far reaching political influence off of it.
The model that was tried by the pirate party in Germany would lead to the same outcome, as liquid democracy mostly works with you either voting yourself or giving your vote for some subjects to a self chosen expert that would vote for you. These experts would be the matriarchs in this case.
 
The model that was tried by the pirate party in Germany would lead to the same outcome, as liquid democracy mostly works with you either voting yourself or giving your vote for some subjects to a self chosen expert that would vote for you. These experts would be the matriarchs in this case.
The German pirate party is also a very clear example as to why this approach has problems, as they devolved into infighting as soon as they got even the smallest share of the vote.

I mean, it might be an interesting commentary if the Asari Republics were just staid and unchanging because their political flexibility has atrophied because of their society's natural impulse to listen to Matriarchs, but on the other hand, I'm not giving Bioware's writing team so much credit that I would call this intentional.
 
The German pirate party is also a very clear example as to why this approach has problems, as they devolved into infighting as soon as they got even the smallest share of the vote.
That was a different problem. Liquid Democracy failed because it was illegal to use it as a voting tool as anonymity could not be assured.

And I think the Asari being stable was more using the cliche of long lived races being stable while short lived ones are unstable but innovating.
 
I mean, it might be an interesting commentary if the Asari Republics were just staid and unchanging
Are they? I mean, yes, Aethyta rambles about it, but that is telling, not showing. Are the Asari Republic in any way of form particularly more unchanging than the Turian Hierarchy or the Salarian Union? Looks to me, all the alien species in ME are kinda socially stagnating, and the asari at least are so on the highest level...
 
Republics.
It's supposed to be a plural, and that the Asari are a collection of diverses more-or-less republican policies.
Urgh, yes, I know that. Slipped by. And yes, the Codex basically says they are a collection of city states.

...which is odd because they evidently manage to have a common Councillor and a joint navy (the Commandos, meanwhile, are in fact based on the city-states and hence not a united force).
 
Urgh, yes, I know that. Slipped by. And yes, the Codex basically says they are a collection of city states.

...which is odd because they evidently manage to have a common Councillor and a joint navy (the Commandos, meanwhile, are in fact based on the city-states and hence not a united force).
Unclear halfway-done politics in my Bioware game?

Gosh, I never :o
 
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