10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Being patient wouldn't have helped us kill Urth.
It would, however, have given us time to realize that we're really not a peer power with Urth.
Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest
- Thread starter Oshha
- Start date
- Original
Being patient wouldn't have helped us kill Urth.
It would, however, have given us time to realize that we're really not a peer power with Urth.
- Location
- Space
We actually are but most of our power is locked because we are meant to "work for it".
For instance All-Seeress has power to see the future and everything what is happening yet we are never warned, Arthyrn from the looks of it could give us the champion yet she doesn't while at the same time we are keeping our disadvantages.
Urth on other hand is going without limits and can pull of whatever he wants, heck he even has ability to hide himself and his daughters from All-Seeress.
But when it comes to creating cat girls or messing with our game system goddesses are perfectly fine with intervinig "for our own good" .
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- Location
- PA
Okay. So this is a major part of the salt and I'd like to say something important.
Urth has more actions then us, but not necessarily more actions then he can find use for!
He wants to spend his turns on like, something like this:
Study Magic
Study Magic
Attempt Ascension
Send Trade Party(attach Diplo Hero)
But if we war with him, he's going to make turns like this:
War Party (Arthwyd)
War Party (Arthwyd)
Raise Warriors
Send Trade Party(attach Diplo Hero)
However, this second turn should expend his resources and screw him if he rolls up Event: Famine, because he was aimed at us instead of managing Econ.
The IMPORTANT bit, was he wasn't going to try and smash us unless he had reason to, because fighting is expensive and annoying and he's not into that since moving into the new body. And more importantly, he won't expend power he doesn't think he needs to. Basically, he's gonna go full JRPG villian and conveinently send his 4 general in weakest to strongest and all that other silly stuff Villians do, if only because from a meta-sense QM doesn't want to just sucker-punch us to death, he's QM it'd be child's play to go full unfair.
Admittedly? I think from a Meta perspective it'd have been better to display Urth's Offer as being Goddess-influenced or something. Maybe add the Goddesses to the Factions tab for a little while as a 'hint' system because right now it feels like we really need a dedicated plan.
...
Additionally it occurs to me that if I understand how Heroes work they tend to show up in times of Need. We haven't popped out Heroes to fight Urth just yet to the time to panic hasn't quiiite arrived, but it might be close.
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I believe that the main problem was that players simply didn't want to let Urth get away with what he's done and of course didn't want to deal with him as a god.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Nah, heroes is just a turn based roll.
Those two things, and also:
1) Assumption he ran a peer power, not a vastly more powerfull state
2) Assumption that he was doing the peace for his own nefarious ends (thus further screwing us over), rather than as a genuine offer.
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Yeah we don't win out in peace against Urth.
Also people still miss the point there is no reason for Urth to not trigger the civil war regardless of his status with us. He invested multiple turns into prepping it and its the perfect solution to keep us busy for multiple turns and allows him to use his actions on things besides us. He could have had peace and then manipulated the maradysh in the exact same manner he did in the update, and our civ could have potentially missed it and not correctly identify him as the cause.
Also people still miss the point there is no reason for Urth to not trigger the civil war regardless of his status with us. He invested multiple turns into prepping it and its the perfect solution to keep us busy for multiple turns and allows him to use his actions on things besides us. He could have had peace and then manipulated the maradysh in the exact same manner he did in the update, and our civ could have potentially missed it and not correctly identify him as the cause.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Honestly, this is starting to read less like Urth "winning" and more like her making a desperate attempt to get us to back off because she can't afford to keep wasting actions and resources on dealing with us instead of on actually important stuff.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And I have not done this. I have not always made each option balanced, but I have never made it so only one option was a viable choice to force you down that path.
If you saw that happening, then that is you deciding that one option is betters than the rest from your point of view and your goals. I can't do anything about that as if one option suits your objectives as a voter better than the rest, then that is on you.
Different players have different perspectives and goals so what might be a clearly optimal choice for one poster may not be the case for another. For example, what an optimal choice for a communist voter isn't optimal for a monarchist voter and they will view different options as being either better or worse.
I cannot stop a poster from deciding that one choice is clearly better than another.
1) It is a carrot and the stick situation or a olive branch and the sword situation. The Caradysh made a genuine peace offer in good faith so they could get you away from their business and when that failed, they went for Plan B. I will also point out that Urth didn't just incite the civil war on a whim. It was planned in advanced and required that advanced planning to work.
2)
They are a peer power to you. I'm not going to reveal details what you ought to find out IC, but the Caradysh are a peer power to the Arthwyd. I will say that you ought to note the one thing that the Caradysh have not done since they got defeated the first time around.
As for the perceived punishment, I can't do anything about that. I foreshadowed this outcome enough that players were able to figure it out during the previous vote. I did what was the logical move for an NPC civ and that NPC only did due to spending multiple turns and actions on it (three turns and five actions).
3) I haven't. I stated an expectation for which way I expected the vote to go. An expectation is different to a preference as the former is what I think will happen and the latter is what I want to happen.
4) I disagree with this interpretation of events. I don't consider it a massive escalation, but the logical next move for the Caradysh. Furthermore, it is not stated that the lowlander tribes are a major power and that is an unfounded assumption. For intervening, you have the chance to intervene now and due to how timespan of the turns and the timeline of how events when down, this is the first chance you had to intervene.
I get what you are saying, but for me, it looks like the more vocal posters are just assuming the worst possible outcomes and interpretation of events. All this just feels like a massively negative way of viewing events and I can't do anything to force the posters to view things more positively.
It can do, but it isn't entirely accurate. As a result, the Arthwyd are certain Urth was the one who caused it, but they would be liars if they were 100% certain. They have doubt, but it is more that they are 99% certain and their evidence would be considered to be too biased or forged by other parties.
You are giving far to much credit to what the Caradysh are capable of doing. You look at their advantages and ignore their disadvantages. You are about to match the Caradysh's action economy and may soon exceed it and I expected you to have done so already. As for the rest of it, assuming that the Caradysh are always going to outmatch you is just, well, it just feels like defeatism to me.
Urth herself stated that she won't be able to pull off what she did in Greenbay again as it as an all-or-nothing more that only worked once. Stealing secrets, you got a detect undead spell and the Daughters of Urth are very distinctive. Combined with your values, the Caradysh will struggle to infiltrate your society now you are aware of them.
Only if you judged by a single factor and decide that how many actions you have is the deciding factor in how powerful you civ is.
I have not tried to railroad you out of it. You aren't using that word right and are just using it as a buzzword now.
What I did was give an explanation of how I didn't railroad the players into current situation and actually expected them not to go for it. Then Star pointed out that majority of the players didn't want peace to which I said that then it is their fault for voting for war and not mine for railroading you.
To which someone somehow took that as me calling the players stupid when all I said was that they are responsible for voting for that option. Because that is how voting works.
If you want to not deal with Urth, then sure. Win the Maradysh civil war and accept Urth's next peace offer and then let each other alone. But you need to define 'the right direction' the right direction for one player is the wrong direction for another.
Urth could have used the same prep work to strike up friendly relations with the Maradysh if you had gone for peace. Plan A was peace, but the Plan B was war.
Sure. Arthryn outlawed it for being unnatural. But that isn't the real reason. The real reason is that I'm not just going to hand the players an immortal Hero just because an NPC civ has one.
No. You are just being salty and this sort of request is pointless.
No, it is this:
Well that or sometimes a narrative event.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Honestly, I'm not sure where you're getting that interpretation from.
- Location
- Somewhere
When have you used future seeing recently in the narative?
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Irrelevant. I'm not removing a tech because you or anyone else doesn't think it has been used enough.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
TBH, I'm not sure what other factors you could use. Heroes, maybe, but Urth has an advantage there too.
Passive innovation rate?
- Location
- Space
But that is really a problem, basically not only was he able to cause a civil war but our own people were blaming us for not accepting a deal, it feels like war is simply not an option but illusions of said option and if we take it you punish us till we accept peace and then everyone can say that we had a choice .
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest - Original | Page 350 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 8759-8904]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
Task: SEC
[X][SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
No. of Votes: 22
[X][SEC] War Party = Barbarian Maradysh
No. of Votes: 13
[X][SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 12
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Boarfolk Nomads
No. of Votes: 1
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: MAIN
[X][MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][MAIN] War Party = (Cursed Forest)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][MAIN] Sacred Forest
No. of Votes: 1
[X][MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 25
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest - Original | Page 350 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 8759-8904]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
Task: SEC
[X][SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
No. of Votes: 22
No. of Votes: 13
No. of Votes: 12
No. of Votes: 2
[X][SEC] Trade Expedition = Boarfolk Nomads
No. of Votes: 1
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: MAIN
[X][MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][MAIN] War Party = (Cursed Forest)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][MAIN] Sacred Forest
No. of Votes: 1
[X][MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 25
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
"If Croesus goes to war, he shall bring down a mighty kingdom."
Seriously, why are people so willing to trust in oracles?
- Location
- Somewhere
What do the Arthwyd use 'future seeing' for at all then?
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- United States
[X][SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
So, here is my reasoning for voting for this over the war party.
I've learned these things from a quick asking of Oshha on the discord (I did it there instead of in thread because it gives much quicker feedback) and here were the answers:
The Maradysh only have walls around their oldest settlements, which are all held by Arthwyd loyalists
The Arthwyd are fairly confident that the loyalists would win on their own, although they are also a little worried about the unknown factor of the Lowlanders.
The Boarfolk (It was confirmed that boarfolk make up essentially all of the Maradysh cavalry) have all sided with us as they are loyal to the Cadlon.
From what we can tell, none of the lowlanders attacking us thus far have cavalry, putting them at an even greater disadvantage.
All of this makes me think that the Arthwyd Maradysh can win on their own (or at least not die next turn) and that we can afford to ensure that we don't end up collapsing from societal stress.
So, here is my reasoning for voting for this over the war party.
I've learned these things from a quick asking of Oshha on the discord (I did it there instead of in thread because it gives much quicker feedback) and here were the answers:
The Maradysh only have walls around their oldest settlements, which are all held by Arthwyd loyalists
The Arthwyd are fairly confident that the loyalists would win on their own, although they are also a little worried about the unknown factor of the Lowlanders.
The Boarfolk (It was confirmed that boarfolk make up essentially all of the Maradysh cavalry) have all sided with us as they are loyal to the Cadlon.
From what we can tell, none of the lowlanders attacking us thus far have cavalry, putting them at an even greater disadvantage.
All of this makes me think that the Arthwyd Maradysh can win on their own (or at least not die next turn) and that we can afford to ensure that we don't end up collapsing from societal stress.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Military quality and size.
Infrastructure.
Wealth.
Population Size.
Defences.
Foreign relations.
Technology.
The thing is the Caradysh built wide rather than tall so they got more land and therefore more actions, but they can only do so much due to having not built up tall. It doesn't help that their leader is micro-managing and more concerned about their own personal power than the well-fare of the civ.
A major Caradysh settlement is about par with a minor Arthwyd settlements and it is a case of quantity (Caradysh) vs quality (Arthwyd) and I'll point out that the Caradysh has never militarily attacked you since their original invasion and that has happened for a reason.
The Arthwyd blaming their leaders is basically them looking for someone to blame for things going wrong. It isn't rationally or logically, but people blaming their leaders for not solving anything.
As for war not being an option, it is most certainly an option, but it is a costly one because the Caradysh aren't just going to roll over and die for you. If you don't want to pay the price of war, then I suppose war isn't a option for you. But if you are willingly to pay the price, then yes, it is a valid option.
The thing is, an option having a price that you have to pay isn't railroading you away from that choice. It just means that if you want the thing, you need to be willingly and able to pay the price.
Predicting the weather such as sailors looking to see what the weather will be like or otherwise predicting natural stuff like a hunter trying to figure out which paths are the muddiest after some rain or trying to predict which route will take the longest.
Mainly background stuff that makes everyday life easier.
OK, so the probability of success is something like 70% for Arthwyd Maradysh to succeed?
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- Location
- Somewhere
Could you please make that effect a little more explicit in it's title? Like maybe 'Future Seeing (Basic , level 0)'? Because as it is now, as a magic, it feels like being handed metal smithing with no obvious sign of limitation, but you can only produce pots and pans, no wheel.
This is something I've noticed in quite a few of your posts, but you use willingly incorrectly, instead of willing a bunch. You've got a similar issue her with rationally and logically instead of rational and logical.
Willingly is specific kind of thing. "I will willingly go to my death in order to stop the evil monster","he willingly gave up his food." opposed to "I am willing to do this thing" or "They were willing to help out." It is rational. They weren't thinking rationally. I'm having trouble describing the difference in those scenarios grammatically but they are different, and you get them mixed up regularly. I'll try to find a good way of stating it that's actually useful, but just letting you know to watch out for that for now.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'll change it to basic.
That would be me not spell-checking/not grammar-checking my posts.
- Location
- United States
I wouldn't put a hard number on it, but from the information provided it seems as though the loyalists have a better chance of winning than the rebels+lowlanders (better warriors, pallisades, cavalry, etc)