- Location
- Space
That is terrible action that has epic way to backfire.
But there is another way to win this. A way that both Urth and Goddesses don't expect.
Let's try to create another god.
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Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest
- Thread starter Oshha
- Start date
- Original
That is terrible action that has epic way to backfire.
But there is another way to win this. A way that both Urth and Goddesses don't expect.
Let's try to create another god.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Don't think we can do either, because our civ is made of idiots. I mean, there's some blatantly transparent manipulation going on (which we should easily be able to detect thanks to our truth magic), and yet our civ considers the Lowlanders "Servants of Evil".
That said, if we can overcome our own's civ's idiocy, it could be a decent plan.
It's not my plan. It's the winning plan as per the tally.
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
There was the option to insist on getting some of our people back, fulfilling that value. We didn't take that option, instead we chose vengeance - which is not one of our values.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Anyway, I've become convinced that involving ourselves with the Maradysh conflict is exactly what Urth wants (it's kind of obvious, really).
Consider our diplo relations.
The Lowlander Tribes are currently indifferent towards us, because they don't really know there's a war going on. As far as they know, they're engaging in repricoperal raids against the Maradysh. Large scale organized warfare is pretty rare in the stone age, so that's quite logical.
If we involve ourselves in the Maradysh war, that means murdering a lot of their warriors, and likely causing them to unite against us, resulting in us having to fight yet another major enemy. Reaction would mean a major escalation. We should, as much as possible, avoid playing into Urth's cards like this. Focus on the real enemy, not his patsies.
The easiest way to do this is to expose Urth's schemes, and make them collapse upon themselves. Urth knowingly manipulated the Lowland tribes into sending unprotected traders, so as to ensure that they would be murdered and create the conflict. If we sent our own trade mission to the Lowland Tribes, and utilize our truth magic to reveal this fact, it may collapse the whole Maradysh-Urth-Lowland alliance.
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
[X] [MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
And some strategic voting.
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
Consider our diplo relations.
The Lowlander Tribes are currently indifferent towards us, because they don't really know there's a war going on. As far as they know, they're engaging in repricoperal raids against the Maradysh. Large scale organized warfare is pretty rare in the stone age, so that's quite logical.
If we involve ourselves in the Maradysh war, that means murdering a lot of their warriors, and likely causing them to unite against us, resulting in us having to fight yet another major enemy. Reaction would mean a major escalation. We should, as much as possible, avoid playing into Urth's cards like this. Focus on the real enemy, not his patsies.
The easiest way to do this is to expose Urth's schemes, and make them collapse upon themselves. Urth knowingly manipulated the Lowland tribes into sending unprotected traders, so as to ensure that they would be murdered and create the conflict. If we sent our own trade mission to the Lowland Tribes, and utilize our truth magic to reveal this fact, it may collapse the whole Maradysh-Urth-Lowland alliance.
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
[X] [MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
And some strategic voting.
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
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- Location
- Austria
I like the reasoning above. Truth Magic + Detect Undead sounds like a good way to untangle the subterfuge thing.
Overpopulation is bad but them's the breaks.
[X] [MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
Overpopulation is bad but them's the breaks.
[X] [MAIN] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
[X] [SEC] Trade Expedition = (Lowland Tribes)
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
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- Location
- Hollister
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
[X] [SEC] Venerate the Goddesses
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Nah, contacting the Boarfolk would be better, atleast they're not being manipulating by Urth. We can bribe them into going south ("Hey, here's some tribute. BTW, there's some really tough guys down there, excellent place to get you some glory and loot."), they'd pretty much be an out-of-context problem for the Lowlanders.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
I don't think they would be out of context. The Lowlands have riding animals IIRC.
More importantly, Nomads are only a big threat if they have a hero to unite them. Otherwise you only get a few tribes who bugger of after a while. It's not a sustainable solution, and if it fails to work the Lowlands may be even more pissed off at us.
According to Discord, there's a horde and it's attacking someone we don't know.
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- Location
- Toronto, Canada
I am of the opinion that the Lowlanders can be bribed to stop their attacks, so I do agree on taking a trade mission expedition to them next turn and to apologize for the actions of the Maradysh. The Maradysh may get pissed, but I think it is worth it if we want to get back into fighting Urth (or hurt him enough to get another peace offer).
I'm only doing a veneration this turn to provide us with a well needed buffer, because we are on the tight rope and it is frankly stressing me out.
I'm only doing a veneration this turn to provide us with a well needed buffer, because we are on the tight rope and it is frankly stressing me out.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
You guys do realize that sending a Trade Mission to the Lowlanders isn't actually a possible action? Because, hey, maybe the Arthwyd don't want to do diplomacy with the guys they see as the literal Servants of Evil?
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
I hope that's not the case.
I mean, how are we supposed to deal with Urth's planning if our actions get railroaded into predictable patterns.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Seriously, you keep using that word.
The narrative is not a railroad, following the narrative because it makes perfect logical sense within the story is not railroading.
- Location
- Austria
Ehh. That's true in general, but being hardcoded into inability to even talk to them is a bit weird. It's not like some sort of rampaging nomadic horde we cannot talk to, after all?
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
From the Arthwyd POV, they may as well be....
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
On the contrary, the times I've put the accusation of railroading form significant diversions of the narrative in order to follow a desired goal.
For example, as long as we used an elective system, we've been able to choose which significant (I'm not counting fluff leaders which had no effect whatsoever) leader to elect. There's only 1 exception. That's when the GM decided to elect the guy, and then used that decision to break the Personal Union.
In this case, despite the fact that the GM has repeatedly said that we do not consider the Maradysh True Arthwydites, the GM has now decided that the retaliation for the murder of a few traders is sufficient to declare a total war.
It's completely illogical. Apparently we were perfectly willing to negotiate with the guy we consider the arch-evil. But the mere concept of talking to a fellow victim, a civ which got conned into doing his bidding, is unspeakable.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
No, this is just a case of you not understanding the narrative and responding by accusing the QM of railroading (because that'll make things better for sure....).
1) Brys got elected because of Queens of Peace, Kings of War. Urth's attack was basically seen as an act of war that the Arthwyd wanted to respond to with war, so they elected the closest male relative of the previous Cadlon who also had the best Martial among the Royal Family. Which was Brys....
2) That might've been true before, when the "barbarian" half of the Maradysh hadn't split off yet. But as of right now, only the "Arthrynite" Maradysh remain loyal, so.... Since we do see the loyalists as completely Arthrynite, our Value probably applies to them now.
3) That was only because Urth used a limited window of opportunity caused by:
1. Him having a Diplo Hero.
2. Him using the Maradysh as sort of intermediaries, since it was mentioned that the Arthwyd would've just trie to kill his Daughter had she come to them directly.
3. Lots of people not really wanting more war, so why the heck not?
And yeah, the Arthwyd aren't acting completely logically here. Lol, who would've thought?
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
1) This point is false. Brys was not a hero, so we know that his martial was at best excellent. The Maradysh choice had the same martial, and there was also another option with the same martial and male. So, clearly, there was plenty of choice and there was no narrative reason to force such a contentious appointment and punish us for it. ((In addition, the fact that we could vote for a female ruler in wartime in that turn without any issue debunks the idea that the value would cause overrides like that))
2) Not seeing much evidence for this interpretation. It's basically conjecture. Don't have any evidence against it either.
3)
1) The Diplo hero didn't visit us until we rejected the peace. She was busy in the Lowlands.
2) We still decided to talk to her. If we can decide to the arch-evil without murder, we can talk to an unwitting pawn.
3) Those people still exist,and haven't changed their mind.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not sure what you are asking.
1) Again, ask questions in the thread. You want to know about stuff, ask about it in the thread and I'll answer them here. Ask me the questions in the discord and I'll answer them there. Don't ask me any questions and you don't find out until the information is relevant to the update.
2) Fair. I'll acknowledge Urth set things up to benefit whether she got peace or war.
3) I make it so that they only operated at limited effectiveness unless they are being opposed by another Hero or Genius. For example, a Martial Hero like Urth is effectively downgraded to Excellent Martial unless going up against another Hero. Incidentally, this is why I didn't mention that the Caradysh had a Diplo Hero because she was operating at Excellent Diplo rather than Heroic Diplo.
Each Immortal Hero/Genius also reduces your chance of generating a Great Person, immortal or not. Right now, the Caradysh are effectively incapable of getting a Genius, even via a random event and they have very low chances of getting a Hero.
4) The Caradysh previously knew about the Maradysh culture and values from when Urth infiltrated and took a guess that they hadn't changed to much since. The Main Turn they sent the peace offer, they also begin to influence the more 'barbarian' half of the Maradysh using what was effectively a Trade Expedition since that is your diplo action at the moment. They also send his Diplo Daughter to the lowlands to form connections with them. In the following Mid Turn when you rejected his peace offer, he used both of his Mid Turn actions to send two trade expeditions to the Maradysh 'barbarians' and the lowlander tribes.
5) Hmm, I suppose it does like that on that map. I may need to update it. For now, I'll state that since the Maradysh have expanded, their southern lands are east of the most northern parts of the Cursed Forest. As for the scouting/trading to the lowland options, I can see how you might feel that way. It isn't my personal stance, but I'll acknowledge that it is a valid position to hold on the matter.
Urth did infiltrating the Maradysh and learning about the Maradysh and Arthwydish cultures before she attacked Greenbay. She also did the majority of work for her blessing before beginning to infiltrate the Maradysh as the Blessing of Arthryn was the final piece she went for with the Blood of Evalyn being a bonus she went for after she learnt about it from the Maradysh. Furthermore, Urth completed the blessing a turn early because she got a crit so she got it done quicker than she would have otherwise.
You don't know.
Urth wasn't guaranteed to win. He could have failed his infiltration of Greenbay. Brys or Gwyn could have spotted the trap he set for them. Urth could have taken longer to make his blessing. You could have attacked the Cursed Forest again with the reminder of your troops at the price of heavy losses and leaving yourself open to attack. You could have attacked last main turn instead of settling or study metal. All of this would have their prices, but you could have come closer to defeating Urth. As things are, you have left Urth alone and given him time to prepare and plot another plan to deal with you so now Urth is in a better position and is harder to defeat.
No because it is a dumb idea to expect it to be a magic button that will save the day and this request is nothing more than needless salt.
This is nonsense. You have had plenty of opportunity to explore and do other things. You could have pursued the Caradysh after Urth's defeat instead of deciding to go for the extended megaproject. You could explored or expanded back then.
Yes, there have been times when I have made a decision instead of leaving up to a player vote. That is my right as QM and I am under no obligation to leave everything up to a vote for the players to decide. I have made it up clear upfront you are only influencing and guiding the civ in the broad stokes and most of what happens in the quest is depending on factors beyond your control and your civ won't be directly control by the players and will make its own decisions based on what path you have guided them down.
You can call that railroading, but it is just complaining that you don't have micro-management and don't get to decide everything. This quest has NPC characters who can make their own decisions without the players voting on it and sometimes they do that because I don't want to bog things down by leaving everything up to a vote.
But you didn't just complain about that. Instead, you claimed that everything apart from a few actions has been me railroading the players
I didn't force the players to go for the extended megaproject when the Epic Age ended. I have forced the players to focus on keeping the Maradysh as a vassal and I didn't force you to get them as a vassal in the first place. I haven't stopped you from exploring the lowlands or anywhere else. I haven't stopped you from expanding. I didn't force you to keep put Bronwyn on the throne. I didn't force you to get a marriage alliance with the Maradysh. I didn't force you to restore the personal union with the Maradysh. I didn't force you to go for a non-hereditary government. I haven't kept you from trading with the nomads or lowlanders. I haven't forced you to study metal or magic when you have or stopped you from doing so when you didn't. I didn't force you to complete the temple. I didn't force you to reject the Caradysh's peace offer.
Take this last vote for a example. I expected the thread to realise that you were limited in your ability to fight the Caradysh and kill Urth so you would take a peace, temporary or not, in exchange for some goodies and use the time to expand, build infrastructure or whatever the thread decided, especially since there were enough clues to figure how what the Caradysh would do if you rejected their offer. To my surprise, the thread to vote for war despite some posters figuring out that Urth would do what he has did and you having limited ability to hurt Urth whilst waging war limits your ability to do other things.
But hey, I am totally force the thread to vote for all of the options that they have chosen. Or perhaps you can hold yourself and your fellow posters responsible for their choices instead of whining that you have been railroaded for vast majority of the quest.
So please explain to me how Urth was able to steal Brys' body and none of her targets survived. Explain to me how her blessing isn't limited to the female gender and is distinctly obvious when anyone has it. Explain to me how the Arthwyd have accepted the Caradysh's peace deal and ended the current hostilities between them. Explain to me why only half of the Maradysh are rebelling while the other half is firmly in your camp and are against the Caradysh.
The Maradysh have been terrible vassals. Even beyond your initial relationship being bad for future relations, their culture makes them hard to diplo due to how charity and outside help are viewed as weaknesses and the fact that your cultures are so different makes matters even worse. The Arthwyd making a loyal vassal of the Maradysh is a hard thing to do because in many respects, they are opposites. The Arthwyd are strongly communal while the Maradysh are strongly familial. The Arthwyd are deeply religious while the Maradysh are irreligious and dismissive of spiritual matters. The Arthwyd are tolerant and accepting of many things while the Maradysh expect you to confirm to the strict expectations of society.
Despite this, you have made progress over the centuries despite a rocky relationship that has gone back and forth over the generations. Note how the Maradysh are divided into two camps, the Arthrynite Maradysh which are loyal to you and follow a lot of your ways versus the more traditional Maradysh who are opposed to the Arthwyd more than they are to
the Caradysh.
As for the Caradysh causing a revolution in a single turn, I wouldn't call either part of that true. What the Caradysh has done is less of a revolution and more identifying a flashpoint amongst the Maradysh and took time to ignite it in addition to sending in the lowlanders to cause more trouble. The Caradysh did this by finding out about the Maradysh culture when they infiltrated them and make a guess that their culture wouldn't have changed too much over the century. So they sent a trade expedition to the Maradysh to get on the good side of the Maradysh barbarians, a trade expedition to the lowlander tribes to get on their good side alongside sending the peace treaty and then using their goodwill, the Caradysh used another part of trade expeditions during their midturn to ignite the flashpoint within the Maradysh culture to get the current conflict when you rejected their peace offer.
The Caradysh took three turns and five actions to get ignite a civil war using temporary goodwill and a disregard for developing long-term good relations with either the lowlanders or Maradysh.
That would be due to the perception of the current conflict. A large portion of the Arthwyd currently feel that the Maradysh civil war is only a thing because the Cadlon foolishly rejected the Caradysh's generous peace offer and that if they had accepted it instead of being stubborn and prideful, the current loss of life could have been avoided. So while the Caradysh may be at fault for their actions in starting this and the barbarians need to be stopped, you got a Stability and Legitimacy hit from members of the Arthwyd blaming the Cadlon for not avoiding this by accepting the Caradysh peace deal.
Since they are not being directly attacked and there is a general belief this could have been avoided if the Cadlon accepted a generous peace offer instead of continuing a pointless war so instead of uniting against an outside foe, they are already blaming unpopular leaders for making a decision that was harmful to the People for no good reason.
The Arthrynite Maradysh are considered part of the People, but you won't get a stability hit for not helping them if they hold their own. If they begin to lose and you haven't been helping them, the Arthwyd will feel that their leaders have been failed to protect members of the People.
So if you don't help, no effect if the Arthrynite Maradysh continue to win, but if they start to lose, you will take a stability and legitimacy hit.
Traditional Maradysh burial rites consist of burying the body if you got time and respect the person, but if you don't care about them, just dump the body out of the way. This is due to the Maradysh being a harsh culture that doesn't really care for the spiritual and are more focused on everyday life.
The barbarian Maradysh still hold to this, but the Arthrynite Maradysh begun the burial rites of the Arthwyd as part of them properly converting through some continue to follow the old ways.
The Arthwyd get to elect their leaders. That doesn't automatically equals the players being able to pick the players of the Arthwyd. Despite your misbelief otherwise, you don't get to vote on every last thing.
Furthermore, this is factually wrong as the players didn't vote Morbyn, Verfyl or Arwyd to be the Cadion or Cadlon so it isn't just Brys.
Yeah, this is a load of nonsense since I never said this and this is neither you making an unfounded assumption or making stuff up.
You aren't making a valid comparison. While you have been at war with the Caradysh, you never been able to send a trade expedition to them and since you are currently at war with the barbarian Maradysh and the lowlander tribes, you can't trade with them until the war is over.
What happened with the Caradysh peace offer is that they approached you, which is fundamentally different to you approaching them. The Caradysh sent overtures of peace via proxy and you listened to them rather dismiss their diplomats out of hand. If the lowlanders sent diplomats to speak with you, you would listen to them just as you did with the Caradysh.
I'll give a detailed answer when I have access to all of my notes.
As it is, I feel my disinterest for this quest has grown too far.
An immortal nemesis, with ever-growing troupee of immortal nemesis?
With more actions, perfect action selection and apparently immune to being future sight-ed?
Yeah, I went through this train-wreck before and it left me extra cynical toward that GM's other quests. While this isn't the same - for I do see how the GM approached this situation and its clearly more in the fair side than that GM was - the humiliation conga line of "lulznoobs " has been primed.
Only agony and growing frustration of multi-generational war against everyone remains.
Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish.
An immortal nemesis, with ever-growing troupee of immortal nemesis?
With more actions, perfect action selection and apparently immune to being future sight-ed?
Yeah, I went through this train-wreck before and it left me extra cynical toward that GM's other quests. While this isn't the same - for I do see how the GM approached this situation and its clearly more in the fair side than that GM was - the humiliation conga line of "lulznoobs " has been primed.
Only agony and growing frustration of multi-generational war against everyone remains.
Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Ha, sounds familiar. Atleast we didn't trigger A Fey Mood.
- Location
- Space
Vervov was competent opponent.
There is a difference between competent opponents and overpowered ones.