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Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

Should the world be a Low Fantasy setting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 70.0%

  • No

    Votes: 27 30.0%
  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .
Reader mode
Oshha said:
I really don't get why people think Arthryn should have punished more people or punished more harshly. None of her laws have been broken as the People still hold to Born Equal and Communal Mandate and have yet to break them even if they came close to disobeying the former. Those that did try to break Born Equal got punished and since it was a first time offensive, it was a relatively tame one and even then, it ended up with someone getting executed.

Everyone else did something that Arthryn (and some of the posters) disagree with and dislike, but did they break any laws or go against Arthryn's commands? No, they just did something that Arthryn didn't like and feels is a bad idea, but they didn't do anything wrong that would earn them a punishment. They came close and would have done so if that they were left to continue down their current course of action. So Arthryn stepped in, warned them not to cross the lines that would earn them punishment and give some minor punishments to those that did break her laws.

To give an analogue, it would be like a SV mod (Arthryn) stepping into a thread (the Arthwyd) and dropping a reminder about what the rules are and gave a warning not to break them because the thread was coming close to doing so. A few posters (Bronwyn, Evalyn and Wyrn) had already gone a bit too far so they got a light punishment (25 points and a three day threadban) and the mod warns everyone that they got off light this time and since everyone now knows better, she won't be so lenient if they break the rules in the future. In this scenario, some people are upset that the mod didn't perma-thread ban the offending posters or give each of them 200 points or infract everyone who supported the offending posters, which includes the majority of this theoretical thread.

The more and more I look at it, I think that some posters are just unhappy that Arthryn just fairly upheld the law, warned people against breaking if before they broke it and didn't just impose her will on the masses to do what she wants (which happens to be what she wants in this case).

I can't help, but wonder how many people would still be complaining if Arthryn had opposite views on this situation and supported monarchy. Would they still be complaining that she didn't use her power to impose her will on the masses and forcing the civ to institute her preferred changes? Or do they only support Arthryn forcing her will when what she wants lines up with what they want?
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The problem here may be a misunderstanding on just what was done that was wrong.

Under my understanding, the very existence of the Concept of the Divine Royal Family, as well as the heriditary monarchy are in violation of the Born Equal value. The problem is that while those who created that system were punished, the system itself has been left alone, and the people who perpetuate it won't be punished either.

After all, when Bronwyn's son is appointed Cadlon, he'll be appointed because of his birth, violating Born Equal. Every ceremony he participates in that emphatizes his divine superior blood violates Born Equal. Every time his leadership gets questioned and he refers to his heritage (which he's certain to do, given that he's a God Kind in a Theocratic Monarchy), he violates born equal. When Bronwyn dies, he'll appoint his son or daughter as Cadlon, continuing the cycle of violation.

To hijack your analogy. Imagine that a certain person, let's say Bob, created a piracy link sharing thread. This thread is against Sufficient Velocity's rules, so the mod's focus their attention on Pirate Bob and infract him. However, they do not remove the thread, nor punish anyone who participated in it. The thread continues to exist and function, despite being against the rules.
 
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Oshha said:
I am all for diversity, but I am not just going to add in diversity for the sake of diversity when it doesn't make sense. Now sure I could have made the Arthrynite pantheon more diverse, but things haven't lined up that way and I had other options which made more sense so I went with those.
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I mean before All-Seeress joined in there were only Arthryn and Wryn(who wasn't officially goddess back then) so add the fact that All-Seeress was Merthyr goddess and how Merthyr females look, they could had a general idea about her female look before Arthryn, add to that that Arthryn was relatively new goddess to the Merntir and they didn't have nation wide blessing like the people ,distance between villages etc.
Ymarn was called ancient for a reason and it's not like people didn't have old people among them.
Oshha said:
If you want to see Arthryn really show her bad side and lay down some serious punishment, try doing something like imposing slavery or caste system or starving your own people so you cross that line that she warned you not to.
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I don't want her bad side. Look at Browyns punishment, she was turned to stone yet she was still given her beauty back and some additional blessing.

As for her daughters well, basically from the looks of it there is no remorse or guilt in her daughters , they don't show regret if for nothing then for hurting their mothers feelings, heck anger over imprisonment would do because they believed that they were doing the right thing in their eyes but they are ultimately behaving like this was all one big joke to them disregarding well being of their followers.
 
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EWilanO said:
Ergo the winner, as the loser will generally be lacking in at least one of the points mentioned above.
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As has been said, that's not always the case.

The most obvious example is the US civil war. The Confederacy lost the war (quite decisively), yet they got to write history, at least in the south.



Another examples are Japan, which continues to deny it's warcrimes.

More ancient would be Emperor Nero, who historians think was a popular ruler, but who upset the Senatorial history castes, and as such is remembered as a madman.
 
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EWilanO said:
Yep but being able to write stuff down requires

a) being alive
b) being free
c) having the education and time to write things down

Ergo the winner, as the loser will generally be lacking in at least one of the points mentioned above.
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You don't have to be a winner to write about assholes conquering your civilization, famine and disease hallowing out your civilization, etc.

And guess what? Khans are generally illiterate.

See if any civilizations conquered by the mongols actually have a positive opinion of Mongol.
 
10ebbor10 said:
The problem here may be a misunderstanding on just what was done that was wrong.

Under my understanding, the very existence of the Concept of the Divine Royal Family, as well as the heriditary monarchy are in violation of the Born Equal value. The problem is that while those who created that system were punished, the system itself has been left alone, and the people who perpetuate it won't be punished either.

To hijack your analogy. Imagine that a certain person, let's say Bob, created a piracy link sharing thread. This thread is against Sufficient Velocity's rules, so the mod's focus their attention on Pirate Bob and infract him. However, they do not remove the thread, nor punish anyone who participated in it. The thread continues to exist and function, despite being against the rules.
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You say that the Divine Royal Family and the hereditary monarchy are violations of Born Equal by their very existence, but Arthryn doesn't agree with this interpretation of events for the above reasons. ​

Born Equal is still a Value that is being followed. Since you still have that value and have not lost it, Arthryn doesn't see the need to punish everyone. She also takes intent into account. The people currently supporting the hereditary monarchy believe to be for the best and in the best interests of the People. Arthryn disagrees with this, but since they are doing what is in the best interests of the People so as long as no one is being hurt and Born Equal and Communal Mandate are kept, Arthryn is willingly to tolerate and accept different political opinions and ideologies to her own.

In her opinion, no one is getting hurt by this and people are doing what they think is right so Arthryn just warned them of what lines not to cross and punished those that were stepping over the line.

In the end, Arthryn doesn't agree with your summary of events.

Star said:
I mean before All-Seeress joined in there were only Arthryn and Wryn so add the fact that All-Seeress was Merthyr goddess and how Merthyr females look, they could had a general idea about her female look before Arthryn, add to that that Arthryn was relatively new goddess to the Merntir and they didn't have nation wide blessing like the people ,distance between villages etc. Ymarn was called ancient for a reason and it's not like people didn't have old people among them.
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All-Seeress got Arthwyd cultural bias imposed on her as part of the Arthwyd converting the Merntir and she didn't have a female look before Arthryn. She didn't have a female look or a male look or any time of look at all before she joint the Arthrynite pantheon. Additionally, Ymarn was added to the pantheon before the All-Seeress. As for Ymarn, she is the daughter of Arthryn and since daughters are younger than their mothers, Ymarn must be younger than Arthryn as a goddess.

All of these are things I already explained to you when you and some others first brought this up when the pantheon was formed.
Oshha said:
That was intentional. Arthryn is Arthryn while Wyrn is considered to be a younger version of mother when it comes to appearance. Ymarn got given an identical body to Arthryn so she had the same figure as Arthryn. As for the All-Seeress, every other goddess has the same figure so she would clearly have the same figure due to also being a goddess.

Furthermore, the Blessing of Arthryn has resulted in the women of the Arthwyd having that figure so the Arthwyd and now the Merntir have come to associated that particular figure with divinity. Sort of a self-reinforcing thing with some circular logic behind it.

Adopted by Arthryn! Obviously got a blessing in the process! Or least that is what the priests tell me. Besides everyone knows what a goddess looks like so it is pretty obvious that All-Seer would look like that. She is a goddess after all.

Pretty much. Arthryn is depicting as being a young hunter and since all daughters are younger than their mother, all of Arthryn's daughters are young regardless of how old they got when they were alive.
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Random Member said:
If she imposes anything that is not FULL COMMUNISM, she's a Bourgeois Reactionary Particular and must be destroyed.

If however, she imposes FULL COMMUNISM on the masses without the support of a Proletarian Mass Movement, she's a Blanquist and must be destroyed.

But if she does nothing as the Feudalists undermine her teachings in order to enslave the Workers, she is detrimental to the Revolutionary Cause and must be destroyed.

And even if she aids the Proletariat with installing FULL COMMUNISM, she is unnecessary as the Workers have no need for "divine" aid. But belief in a "god" is still Counterrevolutionary and detrimental to developing Class Consciousness and thus she must be destroyed.
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This is based on the assumption that Arthryn isn't a worker herself and the deceitful capitalist propaganda has caused the proletariat to be fooled into referring to the comrade worker as something else.
 
Knight Draco said:
This is based on the assumption that Arthryn isn't a worker herself and the deceitful capitalist propaganda has caused the proletariat to be fooled into referring to the comrade worker as something else.
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So the true enemy was the decietful propogandist all along?
 
Oshha said:
You say that the Divine Royal Family and the hereditary monarchy are violations of Born Equal by their very existence, but Arthryn doesn't agree with this interpretation of events for the above reasons. ​
Born Equal is still a Value that is being followed. Since you still have that value and have not lost it, Arthryn doesn't see the need to punish everyone. She also takes intent into account. The people currently supporting the hereditary monarchy believe to be for the best and in the best interests of the People. Arthryn disagrees with this, but since they are doing what is in the best interests of the People so as long as no one is being hurt and Born Equal and Communal Mandate are kept, Arthryn is willingly to tolerate and accept different political opinions and ideologies to her own.

In her opinion, no one is getting hurt by this and people are doing what they think is right so Arthryn just warned them of what lines not to cross and punished those that were stepping over the line.

In the end, Arthryn doesn't agree with your summary of events.
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The problem is that the values are fundamentally incompatible.It is impossible to simultaneously believe that everyone is equal, and that some are better than others.

Oshha said:
Born Equal
While the choices of a person and the world around them can make a person greater or lesser, everyone is born equal to each other.
Pros: Decreased social stratification,
Cons: Decreased social stratification,
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Oshha said:
Divine Royal Family
The descendants of the goddess Evalyn have her blood in them and divinity runs through their body. This fact means that they are better suited to ruling than the rest of the People and can lead their subjects to greatness.
Pros: Better stats for the royal family,
Cons: Increased social stratification
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In addition, Bronwyn got punished because she elevated her family over others. I can't see how her descendant isn't doing the same with his successor.
 
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To make things clear, Arthryn doesn't consider the hereditary monarchy and the Divine Royal Family to be violation of Born Equal as they currently are. Disagree with her on that? You can do that and are perfectly in your rights to do so, but it won't change her opinion or stance on the matter.

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10ebbor10 said:
The problem is that the values are fundamentally incompatible.It is impossible to simultaneously believe that everyone is equal, and that some are better than others.
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And so long as Born Equal is being followed, Arthryn doesn't mind the Divine Royal Family value or the hereditary monarchy government or at least is willingly to tolerate them.

Even through she is a goddess, Arthryn isn't going to go all thought police on the People. She knows that the People are going to believe that some people are just inherently better than others so long as Divine Royal Family is kept, but as long as they follow Born Equal in their actions, she doesn't care if they actually believe in it.

​
 
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Oshha said:
To make things clear, Arthryn doesn't consider the hereditary monarchy and the Divine Royal Family to be violation of Born Equal as they currently are
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Okay, if that is the case, then what did Bronwyn actually do wrong?

Oshha said:
but as long as they follow Born Equal in their actions
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but they can't follow it in their actions, because they grant one person the right rule based solely on their birth, making it clear that he/she is not Born Equal.
 
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10ebbor10 said:
The problem is that the values are fundamentally incompatible.It is impossible to simultaneously believe that everyone is equal, and that some are better than others.





In addition, Bronwyn got punished because she elevated her family over others. I can't see how her descendant isn't doing the same with his successor.
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This is silly. We're talking about humans who can hold contradictory beliefs all the time.
 
Kiba said:
This is silly. We're talking about humans who can hold contradictory beliefs all the time.
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Humans can claim to hold contradictory beliefs, but they can not act on both beliefs at the same time. If Belief A requires thing A, and belief B requires thing B, then only one of those options can happen.

The entire idea behind Doublethink is that you operate on 1 of the beliefs in one context, and on another of the beliefs in the other. Given that we're dealing with the question of whether someone violates a law, there will be some context in which a belief is violated.
 
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10ebbor10 said:
Humans can claim to hold contradictory beliefs, but they can not act on both beliefs at the same time. If Belief A requires thing A, and belief B requires thing B, then only one of those options can happen.

The entire idea behind Doublethink is that you operate on 1 of the beliefs in one context, and on another of the beliefs in the other. Given that we're dealing with the question of whether someone violates a law, there will be some context in which a belief is violated.
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I think the Born Equal Arthyrn really cares about is that people from outside the People can also become People.
 
10ebbor10 said:
Okay, if that is the case, then what did Bronwyn actually do wrong?
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It was her intentions behind the change more than the change itself.

She deliberately changed the government type because it was better for her family as it gave her descendants an unfair advantage and more power over the rest of the people due to the dint of being related to her by blood. She didn't do this because she thought it was best for the people, but because she wanted to ensure the future of her descendants.

If Bronwyn had instituted hereditary monarchy because she felt it was the best government type for the People, which is how she justified making the change to everyone else and got them to support it, then Arthryn wouldn't have punished her and just warned her like everyone so long as Born Equal was still followed.

Arthryn is willingly to tolerate stuff she doesn't approve or dislike as long as it doesn't cross certain lines. However one of those lines is not acting in the best interests of the People for selfish gain (such as giving your family an unfair advantage over everyone else). Since Bronwyn decided to empower her family at what Arthryn considered to be the expense of the People, she got punished.

If she had genuinely believed in the reasons she sold everyone else on and made the changes based on that, then she would have escaped punishment.

Wyrn and Evalyn got punished for enabling Bronwyn's sins as they knew why she was doing what she did and yet they still helped her.

It isn't the institution of hereditary monarchy itself that Bronwyn, Wyrn and Evalyn are getting punished for, but doing so with selfish intent behind it.
 
jjffjhjf said:
I think the Born Equal Arthyrn really cares about is that people from outside the People can also become People.
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But why then force the people to follow communal mandate?
People outside can become people but they are inheritaly inferior to the people just as people are inferior to royal family. It is the people that have divine blessing of the goddess just like the royal family has divine blood of Evalyn.
 
Star said:
People outside can become people but they are inheritaly inferior to the people just as people are inferior to royal family
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They all get given fair chance to prove themselves under Born Equal. It isn't perfect because nothing is perfect, the attempt is made under Born Equal.

Just so everyone is on the same page, none of the Values are always perfectly followed nor does every last member of the People believe in all of them. There always exceptions and sometimes the attempt to follow them fails.
 
Oshha said:
They all get given fair chance to prove themselves under Born Equal. It isn't perfect because nothing is perfect, the attempt is made under Born Equal.
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But what about being leader ? Royal family is the divine proof that some people are inheritly worse at doing some jobs then others and as such they should be be able to do their jobs and prove themselves but only inside certain limits.

It is thus clear that the people are superior than others and should by the divine right do better jobs and have better life, now they aren't breaking communal mandate as they are letting other people prove themselves but only inside their specialities.
 
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Star said:
But what about being leader ? Royal family is the divine proof that some people are inheritly worse at doing some jobs then others and as such they should be be able to do their jobs and prove themselves but only inside certain limits.
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Arthryn doesn't care as long as Born Equal is upheld the majority of the time and people actually try to uphold it and. Everyone else is double-thinking to avoid incurring Arthryn's wrath.

Put simply, perfect is the enemy of good and Arthryn understands both that and the fact that nothing is truly perfect.
 
So, basically seperate but equal.

Except, instead of using it justify discrimination, they use it to justify royal superiority. To be honest, I wonder how far this can be pushed. If some person were to promote a certain relatively small population group as outcasts (and they only get punished after it becomes socially accepted), is it still fine? If our royal family results in the creation of an upper class (because they have some familial link with the divine) , is it still a problem? Or if we start discriminating against foreigners, because they're clearly not blessed?

All those can be justified based on societal good.

Separate but equal - Wikipedia

Anyway, the big problem here is that Arthryn ignores most of what justice is about. The only element she got right is "Retributive". The Deterrence effect seems to have gotten lost completely, being mistaken as a materialistic desire by the people and an annoying parent by the Gods. The Restorative element meanwhile was completely forgotten.
 
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Oshha said:
Arthryn doesn't care as long as Born Equal is upheld the majority of the time and people actually try to uphold it and. Everyone else is double-thinking to avoid incurring Arthryn's wrath.

Put simply, perfect is the enemy of good and Arthryn understands both that and the fact that nothing is truly perfect.
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So as long as community is in good state she is fine with it as system work and everyone are getting their fair share.

Of course those without blessing or not belonging to certain caste should be banned from doing certain jobs and should be treated befitting their social position or better said from which caste they are coming from. Families of priests should have advantage in being the priests since their ancestors were priests and as such they will inherently be more favoured by the goddesses.
Those born to farmers should stay farmers as their parents were farmers and thus they are inheritly good at farming.

On blessing scale people are inheritly master race that is meant to rule the world just as royal family is ruling them.
 
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