I can assure you that when torpedo bombers are dropping their fish around you and dive bombers are chasing after you and you can't see because of the splashes... there is no such thing as too much AA. There is just "Fire everything at everything!" and "I think I might still be alive."
Belated Battleships (KanColle) [REHOST]
- Thread starter theJMPer
- Start date
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
So abyssal troops have the ability to feel fear? If they can feel fear why have non surrendered yet? It cannot be Japanese style stand your ground because then they would not have tried to flee. The only explanation is that they think any little chance no matter how small to escape is worth it in comparison what would be done to them if captured. That to me has some dark implications all things considered. Sure, they are Nazis but it is not like every single soldier fighting for Nazi Germany was executed when surrendering. There was a belief (partly justified) that that would happen to anyone surrendering to the Russians. I am not sure if ww2 Soviet Union is a good role model though.
Sorry if I over analyzed a single throwaway sentence.
- Location
- Canada
Yes, the guns that, for some reason, the Iowa's never got.
Nicholas
No longer teaching battlethings on a battleship
- Location
- Ashore again
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And I can assure you that trying to use your main battery to halp in an air attack actively lowers your chance of survival, which is the reason why most nations knew not to do that. Millions of pounds of overpressure per gun means either lots of dead AA gunners at their stations or lots of unprepared AA gunners scrambling to and from their stations. Much better to lock down the main battery and let the AA do its job.
For the most part the 3"/50 wasn't needed too badly thanks to the sheer amount of gun barrels on each ship, which coupled with a reluctance to pull them off the line to get the work done meant they never got them during the war. Then with the war over the battleships were relegated to training and then decommissioning, so the Navy just never got around to them.
Plus the amount of guns to refit one Iowa would be enough for several smaller ships, so that was a consideration as well.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...I think that @drakensis ' point was that precisely because the main battery would be fired only in a surface action, not against an air attack, festooning the ship with massive amounts of AA that couldn't be safely operated when the main battery was in action was just fine. Because you'd never use the AA guns and the main battery at the same time, and in the event that the AA was needed, you'd be really, really glad for every single gun you had.
That is, "there is no such thing as too much" AA battery. Even if it means placing the extra guns somewhere suboptimal.
Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
I'll note that this is USS Iowa in 1944:
Notice the AA battery right there on her turret.
Notice the AA battery right there on her turret.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
The largest guns that could conceivably be used in an AAA role are the 8"/55 RF guns mounted to the Des Moines triplets, and I wouldn't want to. The blast would likely degrade efficiency of the rest of the AA suite by more than the eights would contribute.
Last edited:
I know that the US Navy actually went to the trouble of working out AA range tables for the 16/50s on the Iowas but they were never used for such and I very much doubt most of the gun crews were even aware that they had the THEORETICAL capability for AA use.. also whether it was AT all practical i very much doubt..
Info here USA 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 7 - NavWeaps
Said range tables were developed largely because of the fact that the HC shells for the guns could be equipped with VT proximity fuses (normally, for shore bombardment of soft targets--bursting above ground maximizes the splinter danger space); I suspect the only way they might have ever been used is if they were targeting large formations of bombers at extreme range, in hopes of destroying/driving them off before they could release standoff weapons. Basically, a stopgap anti-kamikaze/anti-Fritz-X measure until the Bumblebee SAM program bore fruit.
Aye my thought process has always been much the same. As I said above I just cannot see a 16 inch gun being useful for AA work.. although against an American style bomber formation if the shells detonated in the right places IE bracketing the formation I suspect the effects would not be all that different to some of the nuclear tipped SAMs...
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
The AA tables were more or less calculated because everyone else was calculating main battery barrage tables, so the USN figured they might as well in case someone came up with some kind of munitions that made the main battery useful in the air defense role.
Nicholas
No longer teaching battlethings on a battleship
- Location
- Ashore again
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sorry for causing any confusion.
I wasn't advocating using main guns for AA, but I view AA guns that can't be manned while the main guns fire as acceptable but not ideal (a compromise that may be necessary) and not superfluous since surface actions and air defense actions aren't assured to overlap.
Obviously opinions differ and I'm no final authority on the topic.
I wasn't advocating using main guns for AA, but I view AA guns that can't be manned while the main guns fire as acceptable but not ideal (a compromise that may be necessary) and not superfluous since surface actions and air defense actions aren't assured to overlap.
Obviously opinions differ and I'm no final authority on the topic.
BlackAeronaut
Scaring people witless since 1980
- Location
- A state of mind where it is always ****ing Monday.
Wait, when did Iowa come back? Or am I forgetting something again?Well, if she's not busy staring at Iowa being Iowa.
(man, being in Cali so long did things to her)
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Iowa isn't back. That was a joking response to someone asking how Mushi would react to all four Iowas being around at once.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Even if they did overlap, realistically you'd never hit anything in a surface action while maneuvering against air attack, and it would be really stupid to sacrifice your ability to maneuver against air attack in order to be a more stable gunnery platform for a surface action.
So when you can only fire one set of guns, AA operations get priority over main battery operations... which gives you a pretty clear picture of how battleships wound up obsolete in real life, I guess.
Axslashel
I am a pessimist not a realist.
- Location
- Land of the Midnight Sun
Is this a strategy aircraft carriers can make use of? Wait until your choosen prey is involved in a gun battle and then bomb/torpedo them because no AA guns are manned.
Nicholas
No longer teaching battlethings on a battleship
- Location
- Ashore again
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, because better to just sink them now than wait the two days or so the battle fleet will spend getting into gun range.
Big disparity in engagement range for aircraft versus guns, and that's assuming the enemy doesn't maneuver to avoid you at all.
Heavy Iron
- Location
- 'Murica
She sat back on her humble throne, vast talons touching with a click of polished steel as a ghost of a smile graced her pallid features. There was much work to be done. There was always much work to be done. But with her latest batch of demons already fitting out at their piers—and with another already starting to squirm deep inside her frigid womb—she was willing to allot herself a few moments of pleasure.
"Please!" The snow queen's mewling cry crackled over the airwaves, weak and fragile and barely audible over the never-ceasing industrial din of the island fortress. "Empress, I beg you! Help us!"
She allowed her smile to grow until rows of wickedly sharp teeth gleamed in the soulless incandescence. She crossed her long, muscular legs, her pale skin almost glowing in the night. "No," she said with almost giddy cool.
"Bu— empress, please".
She spread her gauntlets, talons biting into the disused wooden crates garnishing her throne of concrete and steel. For anyone else, the simple throne and meager throne-room would've been a travesty. Even the humblest of princesses with the saddest of minuscule domains would've demanded a palace far more opulent.
But not her. No, the empress was content with her small, almost primitive cathedral. Her throne was but a chair, the true seat of her power was the vast stockpiles she'd accumulated. Mountains of ammunition and oceans of fuel, the true treasures of war.
"No," she said again. She stood, hands resting on the crossed gunbelts hanging off her wide-set hips.
"Emp—"
"Ah!" The empress raised a single finger. "You throw yourself head-long into the fight and call me a coward for giving the slightest thought to my logistics…" She smiled, a second row of gleaming incisors flashing at the night. "And now that you've finally bitten off more than you can chew… you come begging to me for help?"
"I…"
"Shut up." The empress snapped. She scowled, making it to the balcony overlooking her vast domain with only a few strides of her long marble legs. Come to think of it, she did have a fair surpluses of resources, and with her fleet expansion in progress another wet nurse or two wouldn't be missed. "Fine."
"Thank you, emp—"
"If," said the empress. "You make it to my fortress on your own. I will not endanger my children to ameliorate your incompetence."
"Of course." The snow queen didn't even try to argue. She must be truly desperate. The empress smiled, licking her teeth as the overwhelming urge to twist the knife a little deeper took old of her.
"And" she said, "you will swear your complete, unquestioning loyalty to me."
There was a long pause before the snow queen finally answered in resignation. "Yes… empress."
During her last sortie with Captain Solomon.
Mo scowled, the muscles of her back tensing as she took a frigid wave on the bow. The ice floes were getting denser now, but it was still only a shadow of what she'd faced her last sortie as a steel-hull. Maybe because there were only two battleships left and not the entire fleet. Maybe the abyssals' black magic had been depleted by the damage they'd endured.
Mo didn't care. It was a question for her big sister's ex-boyfriend. Right now she couldn't care. Her blood was up, coursing through her veins like molten iron until she barely even noticed the bitter cold. Her hands clenched and un-clenched around the the rubber-wrapped hilts of her desert eagles, her thumbs lovingly caressing their knurled hammers.
She. Was. Furious. Hot breath curled from her nose as she slammed through the waves at over thirty knots. They wouldn't slip through her fingers this time. Not again. She would have her vengeance.
No.
Mo blinked, glancing to her flank where Wisky was darting through the ice with a schoolgirl's glee that she finally had her proper speed back. She giggled with each flick of her rudder, her vast shock of copper-red hair whipping in the frigid breeze.
Mo turned her head, looking where Jersey was leading the fleet. Jersey the beauty queen, Jersey the iron monger. Mo'd always been closest with her big sister, but she'd never seen her smile quite like this. She was happy.Not vicious, not sardonically enjoying another's misfortune at her hands. Honestly, genuinely happy.
Belatedly, Mo realized that her big sister had gone almost a year alone. She know Jersey hated it when people saw her cry, so Mo turned her head and pretended not to notice.
Soon, soon the battle would be met. Vengeance would be served. But not hers.
Ari's.
Captain Solomon's.
Commander Holland's.
The list went on and on…
They would have their vengeance. She was but the humble instrument. "Hope I make you proud, sir," mumbled the Iowa.
"Will we?" said her sister. The snow queen glanced over, and knew in an instant her statement was false. She could see it in the way her sister's gaunt jaw hung slack from her eyeless face. The way she clutched her empty stomach. She felt it in herself too.
They were not going to reach the empress's fortress. One of them was going to eat the other first. It was simply a question of who held on longer.
The snow queen scowled, slewing her battery over to face down her sister.
"Sister!" rasped the princess, bringing her own batteries to bear.
"You're thinking it too," hissed the snow queen. "There's no way we'll both make it!"
In that instant, for only the briefest fraction of a second, half the horizion burned with the fire of a thousand dawns.
Before she could utter another word, a sixteen-inch super-heavy shell slammed into her upper-works, severing her windpipe cleanly in two and silencing her in an instant.
In less than an hour it was all over. The sun was starting to rise on an ocean cleansed of the Abyss's taint. It was a small victory, perhaps. But it was without doubt a victory.
"Fatality!" roared Wisky with the deepest grunt her already smokey contralto could manage.
There was a loud smack as Jersey's glove met her face. "God fucking dammit, Wisky!"
The littlest Iowa turned to her sister with a smile that said more than words every could.
"Please!" The snow queen's mewling cry crackled over the airwaves, weak and fragile and barely audible over the never-ceasing industrial din of the island fortress. "Empress, I beg you! Help us!"
She allowed her smile to grow until rows of wickedly sharp teeth gleamed in the soulless incandescence. She crossed her long, muscular legs, her pale skin almost glowing in the night. "No," she said with almost giddy cool.
"Bu— empress, please".
She spread her gauntlets, talons biting into the disused wooden crates garnishing her throne of concrete and steel. For anyone else, the simple throne and meager throne-room would've been a travesty. Even the humblest of princesses with the saddest of minuscule domains would've demanded a palace far more opulent.
But not her. No, the empress was content with her small, almost primitive cathedral. Her throne was but a chair, the true seat of her power was the vast stockpiles she'd accumulated. Mountains of ammunition and oceans of fuel, the true treasures of war.
"No," she said again. She stood, hands resting on the crossed gunbelts hanging off her wide-set hips.
"Emp—"
"Ah!" The empress raised a single finger. "You throw yourself head-long into the fight and call me a coward for giving the slightest thought to my logistics…" She smiled, a second row of gleaming incisors flashing at the night. "And now that you've finally bitten off more than you can chew… you come begging to me for help?"
"I…"
"Shut up." The empress snapped. She scowled, making it to the balcony overlooking her vast domain with only a few strides of her long marble legs. Come to think of it, she did have a fair surpluses of resources, and with her fleet expansion in progress another wet nurse or two wouldn't be missed. "Fine."
"Thank you, emp—"
"If," said the empress. "You make it to my fortress on your own. I will not endanger my children to ameliorate your incompetence."
"Of course." The snow queen didn't even try to argue. She must be truly desperate. The empress smiled, licking her teeth as the overwhelming urge to twist the knife a little deeper took old of her.
"And" she said, "you will swear your complete, unquestioning loyalty to me."
There was a long pause before the snow queen finally answered in resignation. "Yes… empress."
—|—|—
The tropical surf was still bitterly cold. Frigid spray crashed over her proud bow with every heaving wave, and six times now she'd had to alter course to miss a pack of jagged ice. Still, it nothing like the maze of ice she'd faced off Hawaii during…During her last sortie with Captain Solomon.
Mo scowled, the muscles of her back tensing as she took a frigid wave on the bow. The ice floes were getting denser now, but it was still only a shadow of what she'd faced her last sortie as a steel-hull. Maybe because there were only two battleships left and not the entire fleet. Maybe the abyssals' black magic had been depleted by the damage they'd endured.
Mo didn't care. It was a question for her big sister's ex-boyfriend. Right now she couldn't care. Her blood was up, coursing through her veins like molten iron until she barely even noticed the bitter cold. Her hands clenched and un-clenched around the the rubber-wrapped hilts of her desert eagles, her thumbs lovingly caressing their knurled hammers.
She. Was. Furious. Hot breath curled from her nose as she slammed through the waves at over thirty knots. They wouldn't slip through her fingers this time. Not again. She would have her vengeance.
No.
Mo blinked, glancing to her flank where Wisky was darting through the ice with a schoolgirl's glee that she finally had her proper speed back. She giggled with each flick of her rudder, her vast shock of copper-red hair whipping in the frigid breeze.
Mo turned her head, looking where Jersey was leading the fleet. Jersey the beauty queen, Jersey the iron monger. Mo'd always been closest with her big sister, but she'd never seen her smile quite like this. She was happy.Not vicious, not sardonically enjoying another's misfortune at her hands. Honestly, genuinely happy.
Belatedly, Mo realized that her big sister had gone almost a year alone. She know Jersey hated it when people saw her cry, so Mo turned her head and pretended not to notice.
Soon, soon the battle would be met. Vengeance would be served. But not hers.
Ari's.
Captain Solomon's.
Commander Holland's.
The list went on and on…
They would have their vengeance. She was but the humble instrument. "Hope I make you proud, sir," mumbled the Iowa.
—|—|—
"We'll make it," hissed the snow queen, answering a question that had hung unanswered over her and her sister for hours. The words were tinny and hollow in her ears, betraying how desperately shallow her breathing had become. She was hungry. So… so hungry. Her bunkers were all but depleted, and still with every passing wave a little more shipped out from the gashes torn along her waterline."Will we?" said her sister. The snow queen glanced over, and knew in an instant her statement was false. She could see it in the way her sister's gaunt jaw hung slack from her eyeless face. The way she clutched her empty stomach. She felt it in herself too.
They were not going to reach the empress's fortress. One of them was going to eat the other first. It was simply a question of who held on longer.
The snow queen scowled, slewing her battery over to face down her sister.
"Sister!" rasped the princess, bringing her own batteries to bear.
"You're thinking it too," hissed the snow queen. "There's no way we'll both make it!"
In that instant, for only the briefest fraction of a second, half the horizion burned with the fire of a thousand dawns.
—|—|—
"Aloha" said Mo as her rifles dropped to their loading angles.—|—|—
"That's not possible!" the snow queen shrieked. She'd only seen it for a moment, but the image was seared into her brain like it'd been branded on her very gray matter. Twin stacks, long, knife-like bow. That battleship, that damn battleship was back! "This can't—"Before she could utter another word, a sixteen-inch super-heavy shell slammed into her upper-works, severing her windpipe cleanly in two and silencing her in an instant.
—|—|—
The battle… wasn't one. There was no maneuver, no give-and-take of strategy and tactics. The engagement was a brief, decisive execution. The three Iowas stood off in the inky midnight gloom, far out of reach of even the most optimistic shot the battle-damaged Abyssals could attempt and poured shot after shot with pinpoint precision.In less than an hour it was all over. The sun was starting to rise on an ocean cleansed of the Abyss's taint. It was a small victory, perhaps. But it was without doubt a victory.
"Fatality!" roared Wisky with the deepest grunt her already smokey contralto could manage.
There was a loud smack as Jersey's glove met her face. "God fucking dammit, Wisky!"
The littlest Iowa turned to her sister with a smile that said more than words every could.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
No no no, it's the other way around. The enemy spots your planes coming and stops shooting at your side's surface ships. They either break off the surface action or just ignore it for those critical minutes during which your planes are actually attacking. Because defending against air attack is higher priority.
Under absolutely ideal conditions if you had a fleet already in position and everything was perfect, it might help your surface fleet get some shots in unopposed, mind you...
But that only happens in Japanese naval staff planning sessions.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
USN ships can theoretically track surface targets while engaging air ones. It'd be exciting as all hell, and the only place it might happen is a cruiser duel, but it is a capability USN vessels have.
- Location
- In the depts of despair.
To be fair even in the most suboptimal conditions bombing an enemy fleet to cover for an attack run by destroyers actually works, or at least it opened a small window of oportunity at Samar, the only battle when both air and surface forces attacked simultaneously. The real danger to do that is not only that mistiming the air strike is a really easy way of getting the attacking naval assets vulnerable to gunfire, but that the bombers make a blue-on-blue on your ships, something that didn't happen at Samar thanks to the incredible difference in tonnage between both forces and sheer luck.No no no, it's the other way around. The enemy spots your planes coming and stops shooting at your side's surface ships. They either break off the surface action or just ignore it for those critical minutes during which your planes are actually attacking. Because defending against air attack is higher priority.
Under absolutely ideal conditions if you had a fleet already in position and everything was perfect, it might help your surface fleet get some shots in unopposed, mind you...
But that only happens in Japanese naval staff planning sessions.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm pretty sure the USN captains in question would still be wiser to say "all right, main battery, take ten while the air defense boys handle this, then back to shooting those damn cruisers."
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
No? Because a cruiser, especially a CL, doesn't have a powerful enough muzzle blast to fuck with AA, and continuing the surface engagement involves keeping the main battery director pointed at whoever you want to die while the secondaries and AA shoot planes. The FCC and RPC handle the rest.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm. Fair point about the (relative lack of) muzzle blast.
My paradigm didn't shift fast enough from 'battleship' to 'cruiser.' My apologies.
My paradigm didn't shift fast enough from 'battleship' to 'cruiser.' My apologies.