Laser and Optical guidance (along with radar) still sorta work, but nowhere near as well as they should. Think... early 50's level of accuracy or worse. The only guidance system that's guaranteed to work is an actual human eyeball actually looking at the target.

Beacuse P-51s are crappy fighters by today's standards. If you put a fighter that was stellar in its day (Zero) against a fighter that's terrible in its day (modern-production P-51) the former will win. I haven't touched on the exact mechanics specifically to give myself a little narrative wiggle room here. But I'm going for the idea that modern fighters can still pull out wins if the pilots know what they're doing.
That's so utterly broken. Modern fighters are very much quality over quantity. Back in the day, it was not so. Fighters could be affordably mass-produced in absurd numbers, because the technology to increase the lethality of individual fighters was limited.

So no, it doesn't hold water. Magic or not, it's just not even narratively equivalent. America would never be able to afford to produce F-18s in anywhere near the kinds of numbers that it could produce P-51s back in WW2 (which it did, by the way, at relatively low cost).

So if you really want to make it a matter of "no technology, just numbers of peers", then mass-produced F-86s or P-51s should be able to go up against Abyssal fighters 1-to-1. Otherwise, the Abyssals should have massacred everyone by the time carrier shipgirls started appearing in sufficient numbers, since missiles constitute 95% of any modern fighter's (or ship's!) armament, and all of the sudden they're all useless. And Abyssal fighters would outnumber modern jets massively, too.

And, well, it'd just make sense, too. If you want to leave more focus onto the battleships, then allowing the nations of the world a means to defend themselves--albeit not easily or without losses--from unstoppable air raids would just make sense.

Missiles constitute pretty much the entirety of modern air defense, as well as dogfighting. Abyssals being completely immune to that means that they basically have free run of the world wherever they have carriers or Princesses, since aside from a single escort carrier, there are only a handful of friendly carrier girls in the entire Pacific. And they have to scout shit manually.
 
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How does that even work? Zeros shouldn't even be able to catch Hornets, let alone keep them in gun-range long enough. And how do they deal with heat-seeking, proximity-detonating missiles?
I view it as similar to a video game effect, particularly racing games in the arcades; where the lead driver is doing everything right but still can't pull away from the incompetent noob in the next seat because of that fucking boost mechanic. He's just dragging the other guy along and right before the finish line that dipshit will swerve into his bumper, make him crash, and guess which loser steals first place?

It's been years since I last played one, but yes, I can still be bitter about it.
 
I view it as similar to a video game effect, particularly racing games in the arcades; where the lead driver is doing everything right but still can't pull away from the incompetent noob in the next seat because of that fucking boost mechanic. He's just dragging the other guy along and right before the finish line that dipshit will swerve into his bumper, make him crash, and guess which loser steals first place?

It's been years since I last played one, but yes, I can still be bitter about it.
......I have absolutely no idea how that has any relevance to dogfighting between jets and propeller planes. Or magic.
 
Well, SAAB would be happy as now everyone is snapping up whatever fighters they can grab, so very likely the Gripen is going into full production...

Ooo! Idea, because of the need for aircraft, EADS brings out the old plans for the Mako and begin producing them.

Such a cute little plane.
 
You have a point. I'll probably change it so there's some relative scaling with tech and so on and so forth.
I should also include warships with all of that. There's literally no point to building Arleigh-Burkes (sp?) if all of their technology is fucking useless, so just build fucking Fletchers again, but in the kinds of numbers that actually matter.
 
The main problem with restarting production of even stuff like Sabers or Spruance-class DDs is that the knowledge and tools flat out don't exist any more. Retooling productions lines to build them would take time. Quite a bit of time, as the institutional knowledge to even build the tools to build the planes doesn't exist any more. Sure, we can do it easily enough, in relation to churning out larger numbers of modern stuff...but it would still take time. A production line geared to produce a Raptor or Hornet, cannot be rejigged to produce a Mustang or Saber. At least, not easily.

Same reason that we kept using WW2 surplus barrels and shells for the Iowas...there weren't tools or the necessary knowledge to build replacements.

Ships are even worse off. Shipyards would be easier to repurpose to build modern Fletchers or what have you, yes. But that presumes Abyssals haven't blown the shipyards to hell and back already. If they have, then now you have to rebuild the yards and retrain your work crews. Even if they haven't blown them away, the US ship building industry is not what it was in WW2. People often forget that the massive industry that produced the swarms of ships and aircraft during that war was built up in the pre-war years. By contrast, in modern times, we've lost most of that construction potential thanks to differing priorities and outsourcing.

Gearing up to become the Arsenal of Democracy again would take time, even without the need to rebuild tools, knowledge, and possibly shipyards.
 
Not a plane had touched Nagato. Not one. Her anti-aircraft gunners were starting to get bored at their posts. The battleship could hardly believe it. The sky was black with brawling fighters, but she almost felt safer than she did at Yokosuka.
Not Hoppo-chan's fault she's got tunnel vision.
Reppu, Reppu, gimme all the Reppus!
Nagato rolled her eyes. So much for professionalism. It was a good thing Musashi and Jersey didn't get along. Nagato didn't know how she'd be able to handle the two of them together.
b
"Nagato!"
There's an unnecessary 'b' in between the lines.
"You got it!" said Gale, smiling as she offered a teasingly enthusiastic wink. not unlike the typical over-caffeinated children's show host. "With that many planes in the air, it'll be hard for the Princess's planes to set up good attack runs."
Exactly. It's the same problem the USN ran into when formulating the number of carriers in a fast carrier task force: You've only got so much airspace and air-traffic controllers, you rather quickly hit a point where you've got planes wasting fuel loitering around rather than doing their job.
"But Chou-10cm-Hou-chan is!" The animated turret in her fore mount waved its tiny flipper hand at Jersey, its barrels slewing around to point in a generally fuckhuge-mass-of-abyssal-planes-ward direction.

Akizuki smiled, giving her foremost turret a little kiss on its armored roof, "Chu chu!" Her turret… fucking blushed at the attention, its adorable little eye… hole things glancing away as it suddenly found the splintered clouds utterly entrancing.
Oh, right. Those things exist.
"How's her deck looking?"

"Uhmm…" a slurp of noddles, "maybe half a dozen fighters on CAP," said Akagi, "Everything else is either headed your way or landing for resupply."
1. *facepalm* Stop eating on the job Akagi!
2. Hoo boy. Assuming Hoppo's ATCs can manage the number of craft they've got, Jersey's about to get swarmed.
That's 150 after the taffies munched all the Lancasters.
Wait, I thought the ice-carrier had Beaufighters as torpedo bombers?
And it's kinda pointless when you have battleships that run off hamburgers and cuddles.
So which is easier: re-learning how to invent and mass-produce the wagon wheel, or just using the magical one that's already there? Exactly, you use the magical girl-ship carriers for all your aircraft needs.
 
So which is easier: re-learning how to invent and mass-produce the wagon wheel, or just using the magical one that's already there? Exactly, you use the magical girl-ship carriers for all your aircraft needs.
For fuck's sake...

I already explained why this is nonsensical. Until the American shipgirl carriers arrive, the number of shipgirl carriers in the Pacific is going to be brutally small. Meanwhile, not only do Abyssal aircraft have free reign over everywhere over land that isn't guarded by carrier kanmasu, but Abyssals have airbase kanmasu of their own.

So no, you can't conduct national-scale air defense with a handful of carriers across the entire goddamn Pacific. Even if you could, it's grossly wasteful--let the kanmasu handle the more active combat roles by freeing them up from long patrols along coastlines.

Plus, none of that addresses how humanity hasn't been utterly devastated before the kanmasu showed up in significant numbers, since they're apparently the only viable defense against Abyssals.
 
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I tend to assume the Abyssal threat is a gradual ramping up, personally. At first, it's small-scale. Modern forces have brutal difficulties taking them down, but they are small enough in number that it is possible though losses are fierce. It is into this that the first ship girls appear, providing a backbone for modern militaries. But as ship girls appear, the Abyssals begin appearing in ever greater numbers. Modern ships and planes begin to really struggle for whatever reason, and you get the situation where kanmusu become the major striking force. Since they were already starting to come back, they can start taking over in patrols and such though not completely.

And then you end up where we are now, the Abyssals overrunning conventional forces to the point where kanmusu are almost the only thing able to stand against them.

Though it is still a problem when the IJN has at most, and this is presuming the never-saw-combat Unryuu class is a thing...

21 carriers.

Houshou, Kaiyo, Kaga, Akagi, Soryuu, Hiryuu, Shoukaku, Zuikaku, Ryujou, Ryuhou, Chitose, Chiyoda, Junyo, Hiyo, Taihou, Amagi, Unryuu, Katsuragi, Shinano, Shoho, Zuiho.

Though, the point is redundant so far as this story is focused because cute battleships doing cute battlethings, and all.

(Brits might contribute a couple more carriers, and I'll probably have Melbourne in the Tiger omakes, but the point remains)
 
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It really does not matter if it takes more time to set up a P-51 or Cleveland production line compared to running the existing ones. If the best modern science can field is getting a one to one kill/death ratio we will run out of planes and ships at a rate those existing lines cannot hope to match. The only way to keep a presence up would be defaulting back a few tech levels and produce "advanced enough" units like mad. With the lack of our massive WWII fleet reappearing this seems to be our best bet to hold on long enough to get them back in operation.

(No pressure Crowning but that needs to be figured out or we are all going to die.)
 
That's 150 after the taffies munched all the Lancasters.
Wait, I thought the ice-carrier had Beaufighters as torpedo bombers?
It does. The Lancasters were the four-engined high-altitude level-bombers that got butchered attacking Jersey's convoy on the way to Japan. (Remember, it was that attack that tipped everyone to the existence of Habakkuk/Hoppo-chan in the first place, because there was no known facility in the region that could handle aircraft that goddamn big.)
 
Personally I just figure that the magic gave the abyssal planes modern or better ECM and countermeasures as well as degrading the performance of the guidance packages and boosting the abyssal performance such that the Air Force's missiles mean one plane can shoot down 1 or 2 enemies with all their missiles, with the Raptor being better than the F-16 or F-18 due to the fact it's an air superiority fighter, and then they enter dogfighting range and they are one for one.

Sure, the abyssal planes die in greater numbers, but there's more of them, and they are refilled faster.

It's a case of modern planes are built to fire off missiles, and when you can no longer reliably kill a single target with one missile, you start getting in trouble. And then the dogfighting occurs against planes built to dogfight boosted to be competitive to modern planes which means they are much, much better in dogfights... As such, unless they can put up enough missiles that the abyssal all die attrition's what kills them. And even if they do put up enough missiles, well, they'd better hope they don't run into a second, or third wave before they get back to port...

Eventually the countries are probably going to build fighters that are specced for dogfighting with a few missiles thrown in to soften up the abyssal in which case even the magic buffs won't be able to truly save them. But that's going to be years, if not a decade or two away as first they have to figure out what the differences between a missile fighter and a gun fighter are, and then they need to develop the systems, fix the systems, put them together, fix the goddawful mess that is the prototype, test the new prototype, figure out what they didn't do wrong... and only then can they make the new fighter and it's actual systems...
 
Personally I just figure that the magic gave the abyssal planes modern or better ECM and countermeasures as well as degrading the performance of the guidance packages and boosting the abyssal performance such that the Air Force's missiles mean one plane can shoot down 1 or 2 enemies with all their missiles, with the Raptor being better than the F-16 or F-18 due to the fact it's an air superiority fighter, and then they enter dogfighting range and they are one for one.

Sure, the abyssal planes die in greater numbers, but there's more of them, and they are refilled faster.

It's a case of modern planes are built to fire off missiles, and when you can no longer reliably kill a single target with one missile, you start getting in trouble. And then the dogfighting occurs against planes built to dogfight boosted to be competitive to modern planes which means they are much, much better in dogfights... As such, unless they can put up enough missiles that the abyssal all die attrition's what kills them. And even if they do put up enough missiles, well, they'd better hope they don't run into a second, or third wave before they get back to port...

Eventually the countries are probably going to build fighters that are specced for dogfighting with a few missiles thrown in to soften up the abyssal in which case even the magic buffs won't be able to truly save them. But that's going to be years, if not a decade or two away as first they have to figure out what the differences between a missile fighter and a gun fighter are, and then they need to develop the systems, fix the systems, put them together, fix the goddawful mess that is the prototype, test the new prototype, figure out what they didn't do wrong... and only then can they make the new fighter and it's actual systems...

Hell, if we want to give them a decade or two, how about some Cronenberg-esque targeting system that uses a vat-grown eyeball, hooked into a computer system for targeting?

Frankenstein-tech for the win!:p
 
Couple of things: No boosting needed, if missiles are removed.

While ALL USAF and USN (thank you F-4...) fighters carry a gun pod, contrary to old WW2 planes, they dont' have that many SHOTS (remember, 330 rounds when your gun spits OUT 10+ rounds per pull?) Eyeball to Eyeball shooting, means generally, at BEST, they'll get maybe 10-12 shots on target. While the average 20mm that modern birds means, 1 shot will off any WW2 fighter... Problem is, OUTSIDE the A-10, everything the US (and rest!) have, generally will die as well if a WW2 fighter gets a shot in, because they're just about as fragile as a WW2 bird.

It's WORSE. Modern fighters, again outside the A-10 and now the F-22 plus the AVB-8 (Harrier!) But NOT the F-35 to the same extent(*bloody JSF II*), handle compared to the prop jets... like PIGS, big time. So, in actual VR range combat? it'd be like a Lighitng (P-38) trying to dogfight a Zero. Didn't work too well. (Which leads to a tatic, really, for the US, fly all jet fighters LIKE the P-38, zoom and boom tatics, don't try to fight, be interceptors) (Talk to real pilots. Jets handle well, even the late generation F-15/16, but the Raptor and similar vectored thrust birds (very complex and electronic pieces of kit, are the ones that FINALLY attain equal MANUERABLITY to the P-51, A6M/A7M, etc. ALL the airforces went with "speed over turning" as their rule)

Add in, that the Abbies can spam their warbirds, and you have a real issue. We only HAVE about active duty, figure oh, 3000-4000 total fighter aircraft. Figure at least 20% died in the first month by their training being completely wrong for what they faced.
To defend the US, Mexico, ALL of Central America, and most of South AM?

No boosting needed. Just take missiles out of play, and MAJOR problem.

As long as the Abbies are willing to expend 6 to 1, they'll keep the USAF AND USN and USMC trimmed to size.

Even with 'updated' tatics turning most Jets into interceptors... yeah. I can see how it's going.

Now: For the overall battles that most people lump as the Battle of Leyte Gulf. (I did this in other threads, I think GG, about Hasely's undeserved bashing)

I've mentioned this before: IT ISN"T ALL HASELY'S fault.

In fact, the Japanese were VERY brilliant, and acutally did a awesome job predicting AND planning the battle. The other side plays to win, guys.

However: Three issues, all in Setup.
1: Battle of the Phil. Sea (aka the Turkey shoot). Spurance got reamed politely for letting Turkey chan and most of her fleet to escape, responded with he was given TWO 'missions of equal weight' and had to judge (I agree with him, btw, but I'm Army so..) which was more important, and chose to cover his landings (he was right, that WAS the Japanese objective)

This lead Nimtz to _EXPLICTLY_ order Hasely: "Go for the Enemy Fleet FIRST, as your utmost priority"

2: Contrary to views of FADM Hasely, he was a smart man, and had a good idea how the Japanese were trained and how they SHOULD think. And did a generally GOOD job (he defended Spruance over Phil. Sea), on guessing what they'd do. (Since in a lot of ways they WERE what He'd do in their shoes. Simliar training)

3: Japan threw out the rulebook and chose to expend assets that Hasely and most other American combat commanders WOULD NOT DO. Not only did they violate the Mahan doctrinces, that both sides used, they violated the basic rules of war, by inviting defeat in detail (which is what happened, if you think "They didn't do their mission") nor did Hasely and others REALLY realize how badly wrecked the Japanese industry was, nor how few ships were left, nor what situation the Japanese REALLY were in. (For all of ONI's successes in the war, missing this was a _big_ one.. but frankly, given how insane the Japanese military WAS, and how little anyone talked to each other? Yeah. Understandable)

So. In the leadup? Japan got brilliant. And played their pair of two's... about as perfectly as you could have for their mission. To be frank, Japan deserves the kudos here. The Plan was about as brilliant as it could be, all things considered, and since this was the spot BOTH sides had in mind for "THE Desicive battle" per Mahan theories, go all out.

Now, in Battle two things:
1: Kinkiad wipes out Southern force in the classic crossing the T. Hasely knows this, thinks the Japanese forces are done, goes after the remaining Naval carriers to finish the job, thinking (correctly, as Kinkaid was doing so, btw) that Kinkaid would get BACK to cover Taffies. However, Hasely was misinformed of EXCATLY where he was, and how fast he was going.

2: Given the training both sides had, Hasely had NO reason to expect or belive that the Japanese would split up their battle line. Even if they DID, he figured some would remain with the carriers to protect them (The fact the Japanese did NOT do a similar FCTF concept is one of the hilarious facts, nor that they never developed the battlegroup concept)
Therefore with everything HE KNEW, he was RIGHT to go after them.

Caveats:
"He should have left some behind!" Again, see above. CONCENTRATION of Forces is a universal military doctrine. Don't split up, don't invite defeat in detail.

"He should have double checked where Kinkaid was!" ... Yeah, this one's harder, but he generally trusted his staff to do so, and Kinkaid's people were usually on the ball.

"He should have KNOWN they'd do this!" Um, why? He knew their dotrince, their basic stragetic assumptions, he had fought them repeatedly.

THEY THREW OUT THE RULE BOOK COMPLETELY, threw OUT EVERYTHING.

For the first time in IJN history, they tried something that was completely OUT the box they operated in, and.. .it WORKED.

While BASHING Hasely (feel free, I don't like him ethier), is fine and good, please do give credit to the Japanese who came up with one out of the box solution, that only because Center force got completely delayed and disorganized by Taffy 3, would have at least destroyed a decent amount of the landing forces and severely set back if not stopped for at least a month, the invasion of Luzon, and might have severely delayed the taking of the other objectives on the various command's part.

As for his fueling, Destroyers EAT lots of fuel in 33 knot dashing, and he was going to do so, that's why he refueled, someone mentioned fuel states, and the fear of running OUT.

Jersey's free to hate Hasely for it, emotions aren't logical, she knew the ships left to die, and well, there's "I wasn't THERE to protect them!". There are arugements ethier way, but it's all hindsight. (Plus, part of it might simply be black shoes hating brown shoes)

Perfectly fine. She fought there, she gets that right

We weren't, we don't. We have to look at as a whole.

And that's taking in the OTHER side's existence, plus factors BEYOUND the immediate battle.
 
While the average 20mm that modern birds means, 1 shot will off any WW2 fighter
Ugh no they won't If you really want I can find the tables again but the performance of 20mm rounds hasn't increased all that dramatically since WW2. IIRC they have gone from 11mm of armour penetration to 13mm for a 90 degree hit on RHA penetration testing. By the end of the war many fighters were carrying 2-4 of the things + a bunch of .50 cal. A good burst on target will drop the plane but 1 shot isn't a major threat. 30 and 40mm explosive rounds are a slightly different matter but even those need to hit something vital to cause a 1 shot kill and you'll be lucky to get that on a moving target.
 
Ugh no they won't If you really want I can find the tables again but the performance of 20mm rounds hasn't increased all that dramatically since WW2. IIRC they have gone from 11mm of armour penetration to 13mm for a 90 degree hit on RHA penetration testing. By the end of the war many fighters were carrying 2-4 of the things + a bunch of .50 cal. A good burst on target will drop the plane but 1 shot isn't a major threat. 30 and 40mm explosive rounds are a slightly different matter but even those need to hit something vital to cause a 1 shot kill and you'll be lucky to get that on a moving target.
and 5-8 of them _will_ kill a WW2 fighter, since the problem is hitting them with a burst, not getting the entire burst. Remember, all jets since the F-4 (and AVB-8, they're the sole exception to the active duty birds) mount a GATLING gun, meaning by and large, if you hit with it, you'll put in at least 3-4 rounds. Enough to kill most, if not all WW2 fighters.
 
Now: For the overall battles that most people lump as the Battle of Leyte Gulf. (I did this in other threads, I think GG, about Hasely's undeserved bashing)

I've mentioned this before: IT ISN"T ALL HASELY'S fault.

In fact, the Japanese were VERY brilliant, and acutally did a awesome job predicting AND planning the battle. The other side plays to win, guys.

However: Three issues, all in Setup.
1: Battle of the Phil. Sea (aka the Turkey shoot). Spurance got reamed politely for letting Turkey chan and most of her fleet to escape, responded with he was given TWO 'missions of equal weight' and had to judge (I agree with him, btw, but I'm Army so..) which was more important, and chose to cover his landings (he was right, that WAS the Japanese objective)

This lead Nimtz to _EXPLICTLY_ order Hasely: "Go for the Enemy Fleet FIRST, as your utmost priority"

2: Contrary to views of FADM Hasely, he was a smart man, and had a good idea how the Japanese were trained and how they SHOULD think. And did a generally GOOD job (he defended Spruance over Phil. Sea), on guessing what they'd do. (Since in a lot of ways they WERE what He'd do in their shoes. Simliar training)

3: Japan threw out the rulebook and chose to expend assets that Hasely and most other American combat commanders WOULD NOT DO. Not only did they violate the Mahan doctrinces, that both sides used, they violated the basic rules of war, by inviting defeat in detail (which is what happened, if you think "They didn't do their mission") nor did Hasely and others REALLY realize how badly wrecked the Japanese industry was, nor how few ships were left, nor what situation the Japanese REALLY were in. (For all of ONI's successes in the war, missing this was a _big_ one.. but frankly, given how insane the Japanese military WAS, and how little anyone talked to each other? Yeah. Understandable)

So. In the leadup? Japan got brilliant. And played their pair of two's... about as perfectly as you could have for their mission. To be frank, Japan deserves the kudos here. The Plan was about as brilliant as it could be, all things considered, and since this was the spot BOTH sides had in mind for "THE Desicive battle" per Mahan theories, go all out.

Now, in Battle two things:
1: Kinkiad wipes out Southern force in the classic crossing the T. Hasely knows this, thinks the Japanese forces are done, goes after the remaining Naval carriers to finish the job, thinking (correctly, as Kinkaid was doing so, btw) that Kinkaid would get BACK to cover Taffies. However, Hasely was misinformed of EXCATLY where he was, and how fast he was going.

2: Given the training both sides had, Hasely had NO reason to expect or belive that the Japanese would split up their battle line. Even if they DID, he figured some would remain with the carriers to protect them (The fact the Japanese did NOT do a similar FCTF concept is one of the hilarious facts, nor that they never developed the battlegroup concept)
Therefore with everything HE KNEW, he was RIGHT to go after them.

Caveats:
"He should have left some behind!" Again, see above. CONCENTRATION of Forces is a universal military doctrine. Don't split up, don't invite defeat in detail.

"He should have double checked where Kinkaid was!" ... Yeah, this one's harder, but he generally trusted his staff to do so, and Kinkaid's people were usually on the ball.

"He should have KNOWN they'd do this!" Um, why? He knew their dotrince, their basic stragetic assumptions, he had fought them repeatedly.

THEY THREW OUT THE RULE BOOK COMPLETELY, threw OUT EVERYTHING.

For the first time in IJN history, they tried something that was completely OUT the box they operated in, and.. .it WORKED.

While BASHING Hasely (feel free, I don't like him ethier), is fine and good, please do give credit to the Japanese who came up with one out of the box solution, that only because Center force got completely delayed and disorganized by Taffy 3, would have at least destroyed a decent amount of the landing forces and severely set back if not stopped for at least a month, the invasion of Luzon, and might have severely delayed the taking of the other objectives on the various command's part.

As for his fueling, Destroyers EAT lots of fuel in 33 knot dashing, and he was going to do so, that's why he refueled, someone mentioned fuel states, and the fear of running OUT.

Jersey's free to hate Hasely for it, emotions aren't logical, she knew the ships left to die, and well, there's "I wasn't THERE to protect them!". There are arugements ethier way, but it's all hindsight. (Plus, part of it might simply be black shoes hating brown shoes)

Perfectly fine. She fought there, she gets that right

We weren't, we don't. We have to look at as a whole.

And that's taking in the OTHER side's existence, plus factors BEYOUND the immediate battle.

Maybe someone (a Japanese ship that was there, maybe) should explain this to Jersey if she gets emotional about it again?
 
and 5-8 of them _will_ kill a WW2 fighter, since the problem is hitting them with a burst, not getting the entire burst. Remember, all jets since the F-4 (and AVB-8, they're the sole exception to the active duty birds) mount a GATLING gun, meaning by and large, if you hit with it, you'll put in at least 3-4 rounds. Enough to kill most, if not all WW2 fighters.
I don't really want to derail a ships thread with more planes conversation but you might want to go google image search battle damage to various WW2 fighters. Not to say a few well placed shots won't drop one but they've been landed after some pretty insane damage. For really insane damage though have a look at the damaged bombers. I'd link pics but I think it's a derail to a ships thread.
 
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