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Belated Battleships (KanColle) [REHOST]

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You assume logic is present. I once heard an environmentalist here speaking at a Community Council meeting in my hometown, who didn't want a solar panel field, because he didn't want to "deplete the Sun."

BY THE WAY: The Field was built anyway. :p
 
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PAGDTenno said:
... You know, sometimes the silliness of environmental activists amazes me. And their inability to do math. I'm gonna do some real fuzzy math, just to give an idea of the numbers.

Copper is present in seawater at .5-4.5 nmol/kg. Assuming both Independence's entire hull was made of copper and it dissolved entirely (61,000 t copper into 2.5 quintillion kg of water, or 55.3 million kg into 2.5 quintillion kg water, or 865 million moles into 2.5 quintillion kg.), the concentration of copper in the Gulf of Mexico would increase by .346 nmol/kg. Now, obviously, Independence's entire hull isn't made of copper, and the amount in her antifouling pain is probably under 200 tons. So the real increase would be around .001153 nmol/kg, which is a .2% increase in oceanic dissolved copper, assuming 100% leaching. Which is pretty fucking unlikely, because if it worked that way, antifouling paint wouldn't work.
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*gasps*
Don't ever confuse a hipster environmental activist with something so... so... privileged as *math* and *chemistry*.

Besides, the real reason is that for these sorts of environmental defense cases the lawyers and activist groups involved sue purely to get the legal fees paid out by the government. Since the activist group and the lawyers are usually the same people, it's a very profitable activity. File your lawsuit against the EPA, the EPA doesn't really care enough to defend against it so they consent decree out and the court invariably awards 'reasonable' fees to the plaintiff, which the EPA lawyers and administrators don't have to pay out of their own pockets. Money gets wasted on something totally useless from some other departments budget, the activists get their payday, the taxpayers get stiffed. Everybody in Washington is happy.
 
PAGDTenno said:
... You know, sometimes the silliness of environmental activists amazes me. And their inability to do math.
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The biggest problem is that you don't exactly need a master's degree in ecology to call yourself an environmental activist, just like there's a zillion bozos out there who will argue economic policy on the Internet with ULTIMATE SUPAH INNUMERACY switched on.

If everyone who stood up and expressed an opinion on economics was called an "economic activist," I suspect 'economics' would be just as much a cuss word to just as many people as 'environmentalist.'

Copper is present in seawater at .5-4.5 nmol/kg. Assuming both Independence's entire hull was made of copper and it dissolved entirely (61,000 t copper into 2.5 quintillion kg of water, or 55.3 million kg into 2.5 quintillion kg water, or 865 million moles into 2.5 quintillion kg.), the concentration of copper in the Gulf of Mexico would increase by .346 nmol/kg. Now, obviously, Independence's entire hull isn't made of copper, and the amount in her antifouling pain is probably under 200 tons. So the real increase would be around .001153 nmol/kg, which is a .2% increase in oceanic dissolved copper, assuming 100% leaching. Which is pretty fucking unlikely, because if it worked that way, antifouling paint wouldn't work.
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Hm. Devil's advocacy moment:

Would the concern be an increase in copper levels in the entire Gulf of Mexico? Or in the waters immediately around the scrapping site? Most people I've heard complain about polluting the ocean don't proceed on the assumption that the pollutant will be rapidly dispersed throughout a large body of seawater.

I mean, five thousand tons of fuel oil rapidly leaking out of a wrecked ship doesn't sound like a problem if you divide it among the billion billion tons or so of seawater on the entire planet. That's only five parts per quadrillion, right?

But the fuel oil has to pass through the surrounding waters on its way out to the ocean. Which is considerably more of a problem if it happens in an estuary that only contains, say, one billion tons of seawater to begin with. That'd be rather more toxic. I mean, maybe five parts per million of fuel oil isn't bad for little fishies, I don't actually know, butit's the sort of thing that has you stop and ask "wait is this a problem" instead of "haha you must be joking."
 
The paint removal isn't in the Gulf though. It's being carried out at the shipyard in Bremerton. Where they routinely scrap old nuke subs. And repaint ships being fixed since the early 1900s, when they used even nastier and cruder compounds in marine paint. The Navy will never shut PSNS or the shipyard down because then it would be instantly declared a Superfund site and there is no budget big enough to completely clean that. Add to the fact that they still find the occasional old decaying tunnel on base where ordnance got stashed back during WWII.

Everything about the situation is just silly because the activists just stopped people from scraping a layer of paint from a ship that is going to be scrapped in waters far away from them.
 
[Nods]

I, too, have felt the burning fiery pain of watching local politics blow up because someone starts yelling things that grossly contradict the facts, but nevertheless gets believed because they are loud.

:(
 
not sure if this is appropriate but i'm concerned, did farmer bob get a kick in the teeth for his latest fair napping bit?
 
Simon_Jester said:
Would the concern be an increase in copper levels in the entire Gulf of Mexico? Or in the waters immediately around the scrapping site? Most people I've heard complain about polluting the ocean don't proceed on the assumption that the pollutant will be rapidly dispersed throughout a large body of seawater.
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Its a pretty reasonable assumption in the Gulf of Mexico, as the water is warm, and the currents are fast.
 
If the paint removal were being done in the Gulf of Mexico directly, I'd say it's a fair approximation assuming there's no strong thermocline or anything.

If the paint removal were being done in an estuary or a bay, I would say differently.

Timescale matters, too.

I guess my point is simply that environmental safety issues aren't trivial, as illustrated by Bremerton being so polluted it'd be the granddaddy of all Superfund sites if they ever tried to clean it up. It takes actual facts, logic, and information to make the call. Environmental concerns shouldn't be either raised up to block all action OR dismissed out of hand, purely on the strength of a single facile calculation, even if all the math was done correctly.

Done right, environmental science is like maritime engineering- a lot of work.
 
Guys, can the debate on naval paint and environmental aspects go to it's own thread, and we get back to cute battleships doing cute battlethings here? I'd rather debate 'How many bras can Albie steal before everyone notices?' than the minutia of paint disposal.
 
I think the fact that Albie somehow couldn't be found while Jersey and Shiny were on the train yet the very instant they go to get off she's just... there. No warning, just suddenly appears and runs off the train in a rather funny way. That was the moment where I thought to myself, "Wait, is this a trait shared by all subs?". In that instant I knew terror since if all subs are stealthy like that, then there is no hope of escape if a lewdmarine sets her eyes on you.

Now in regards to the latest chapter; aside from the funny image of trying to launch a fuming standard from a catapult (which personally I would equate that to having an angry cat thrown at you) this is really the only way how to sum up my reaction to reading this particular Abyssal perspective segment. The fact that it's more or less spelled out on who's getting Murphy's anvil dropped on their head has me greatly worried about Pringles.
 
Hrm... Distraction time!


Meanwhile Albie is stealing all of your gel pens.
 
Abject Testament said:
I think the fact that Albie somehow couldn't be found while Jersey and Shiny were on the train yet the very instant they go to get off she's just... there. No warning, just suddenly appears and runs off the train in a rather funny way. That was the moment where I thought to myself, "Wait, is this a trait shared by all subs?". In that instant I knew terror since if all subs are stealthy like that, then there is no hope of escape if a lewdmarine sets her eyes on you.
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You think Albie is good? No one even knew Archie was there until she was needed to babysit Shinny.

Including that poor, confused fishie.
 
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