She was a harsh, especially when she mentioned "I don't give a single rotten fuck" about Pennsy's problems, but her conduct was appropriate, having personal problems just before an operation could lead to terrible fuck ups, an considering Shinano's willpower, which has the strength of wet toilet paper, i agree with your statement.
There were limits to what Jersey could really do. She can't just scream at Pennsy like a Marine DI, as that wouldn't have had the proper effect. Plus. Pennsy's technically not hers to correct. Pennsy's under Richarson's command, and so her rebukes should be coming from her admiral, Jersey just quelled the immediate problem.

Also, since Pennsy is really @Old Iron's character, I didn't want to steal too much character development from him.
In regards to the leveling effect, i think i got an idea of how it works.

Imagine a scale 1-10. With 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. An F-22, being a top-of-the-line modern fighter, would rate as a 10. Similarly, a Me-262 would rate as a 10 on the Abyssal side. When these top-tier weapons on both side fight, the F-22 would be the clear winner.

However, if the Me-262 goes up against a Harrier or Mig-21, both rated on a scale of 5, then it's a complete slaughter.I estimate that It would take human aircraft at a scale of 8-9 to match Scale 10 Abyssal aircraft and Scale 10 human aircraft e.g F-22's that can truly overpower Scale 10 Abyssal aircraft.

I hope this fits what many have described on the leveling effect. Feel free to correct me.
Spot-on, except if two top-tier weapons fight, it would be a fair fight with no side having a clear advantage. I'm not quite sure where you got that from. (One-for-one, human aircraft pull out ahead, but the Abyssals sually have numbers on their side, which balances things back out again.)
 
There were limits to what Jersey could really do. She can't just scream at Pennsy like a Marine DI, as that wouldn't have had the proper effect. Plus. Pennsy's technically not hers to correct. Pennsy's under Richarson's command, and so her rebukes should be coming from her admiral, Jersey just quelled the immediate problem.

Also, since Pennsy is really @Old Iron's character, I didn't want to steal too much character development from him.

Quite, still though, i feel sorry for Pennsy, and i see a part of myself in her......

Spot-on, except if two top-tier weapons fight, it would be a fair fight with no side having a clear advantage. I'm not quite sure where you got that from. (One-for-one, human aircraft pull out ahead, but the Abyssals sually have numbers on their side, which balances things back out again.)

Wow thanks!, as to how i got the idea, i should have elaborated that while human top tier weapons outmatch their Abyssal counterparts, the Abyssals can easily replace theirs, as for the humans, not only do they have a limited number of top tier weapons, they also replace theirs at a snails-pace rate compared to the Abyssals, thus in the long run, the immediate superiority of human top tier weapons counts for little against endless numbers.
 
Arizona's lips tensed, and she fought back the urge to whack the bigger battleship's knuckles with a ruler.
The Mombote is strong with her...
"Jersey, language please."

The big battleship blinked. Then her stern features twisted into a scowl. "Oh, Fuck! Sorry!" She reached over the table to rustle Jane's hair. "Don't say any of the fucking words I say, okay, kiddo?"
~sigh~ At least you're trying, Jersey...

And it's a little funny to watch Pennsy complain about the IJN murdering her sister Arizona in front of her... when she's sitting right there at the table, calmly having breakfast with Shinano.
 
And this is a problem I have with this story—the lack of balance between carriers and battleships. Yes, I have heard both the Watsonian and Doylist reasons. Yes, I love the surface combat. No, I still don't like the reasoning. This imbalance can lead to Abyssal carrier spam, in which no matter what, the shipgirls WILL lose when they either sink or run out of ammo. Not even subs are safe—the Abyssals would likely bring destroyers an light carriers for ASW, and they would drown the subs in ash cans. Unless, there are enough carriers to balance out the battleships.

...Yeah, I've been thinking way too hard.
The Abyssals haven't been spamming carriers though. They've almost been more constrained than allied forces when it comes to available decks. (Mostly because shore-based forces can pick up the slack, so it takes more decks to mount significant attacks while keeping enough in reserve for fleet actions.) There is a reasoning for it though, which hasn't been fully explained, although it's been hinted at pretty heavily.
Well while Far Cry Primal is installing I may as well try to write Belated Missile Cruisers and show people how you do cold war shipgirls. :V
Yes, do that. It's relevant to my interests.
 
Shipgirls show no signs of being able to "swap out" their munitions for steel-hulled ship munitions or modified versions of same.

We've reason to think that one shipgirl can share ammunition with another (since carriergirls can share planes). But that doesn't mean they can take shells or torpedo warheads from just anywhere.

Please don't start fixating on how to combine modern weapons and shipgirls to somehow make the shipgirls more effective. Please. That never ends well.

Except it doesn't, because for some reason, the Abyssals don't actually have carriers to spam, any more than the Forces of Good (TM) do.

Deal with it.

Oh God no. Nothing modern.

Sorry, I was more meaning something like the old 1947-50s, pre-ICBM, artillery shell sized atomic (NOT nuclear, but atomic) warheads. Which, iirc, were gunbarrel type fission warheads. The ones that were somewhat infamous in that the blast radius was larger that the distance the artillery could fire the round.

Aka, utter crap as a cannon round, even for naval artillery, but perhaps not a bad idea for torpedoes. Perhaps.

And ONLY as an ASW weapon in using the massive vacuum bubble produced, plus the compression wave, to implode a submerged submarine. It's use as aneeded anti-surface weapon would be, well, non-existent at best, and instead might just piss off the Abyssals more than normal, rather than actually do anything. To actually do anything to a surface ship would require damn near a direct hit, and that would put the firing unit WAY too close to the fireball, to say nothing of what might happen to any friendly airborne units in the vicinity who's pilots are briefly flash-blinded. So again, ASW only. Launch it from max range, and set it to go off when the torp 'runs outta gas', and not a moment sooner.

But anything post-1955? NOPE NOPE NOPE, A WHOLE LOTTA NOPE. NOPE.
 
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Put me down as really liking seeing Jersey in her officer's mode there, giving Pennsylvania a necessary dressing-down. Also as really feeling for Pennsylvania, who does seem to have caught the worst of a shipgirl's quirky perception of intervening time and not-quite-human thought patterns in terms of the sheer anguish her experiences and history are causing her.

Also, while we're largely limited to seeing it from a human and shipgirl perspective, with only brief windows into the perspective of major Abyssal characters, I continue to be intrigued by the fic's steady exploration of what the Abyssals are and how they work. We've already seen, with a fully armed and operational Habakkuk and Battleship Princess and the Saratoga That Should Never Have Been, that that Abyssal navy is outfitted with could've-been and never-were ships, and the appearance of Ar-234Cs continues that into the Abyssal air wing, with an aircraft that was still in the testing stages at the end of WWII now available to be launched en masse from Woody Island. Now I wonder (or worry) just what else the Abyss has in its bag of tricks; if New Jersey is, as far as battleships go, "the best that ever was," does that mean the Abyssal arsenal is going to be an increasingly ghastly parade of "the worst and weirdest that never were?"

Also, re: the levelling effect: as I understand it, this puts vehicles of comparable role and quality but of different eras on a roughly even footing, e.g. a really good modern dogfighter, a really good WWII-era dogfighter as created and launched by a shipgirl carrier, and a really good WWII-era dogfighter as created and launcher by an Abyssal carrier or installation should all perform similarly? I'm kind of curious as to what extent the definition of 'really good' there is absolute and to what extent it's relative, e.g. has the sheer performance of the F-22 (design brief: "vastly better than any other air superiority fighter out there,") and the F-35 (design brief: "better than any other air superiority fighter out there, except the F-22,") pushed the top end of the scale and inadvertently hamstrung other aircraft vs. Abyssals? Has the quest for future-proof weapons that aren't just better than any conceivable opponent of today, but also better than any conceivable opponent they might face in the foreseeable future, given rise to the Abyss as an enemy against whom you need those most superlatively sharp swords in your arsenal?
 
I'm sure you did, however i can't blame Pennsy for being who she is now.
Do I blame her? No.

But it doesn't matter if I blame her. It's not about blame.

Pennsylvania's attitude is (literally) insane and dysfunctional. Insane in that it's out of line with present reality, and dysfunctional in that it's stopping her ability to function as a fighting ship. She's being too paranoid and hateful to work as part of a fleet, too angry and poorly restrained for other shipgirls to feel safe around her, and so malicious that she's causing psychological trauma to other shipgirls.

Does she have reasons to be that way? Yes. Does it matter, for practical purposes, what her reasons are? Not very much- Jersey's right about that. Because ultimately, someone could die if she keeps this up and doesn't put a lid on it. It might even be someone Pennsylvania doesn't want dead.

Perhaps the most accurate thing Jersey said in that whole chewing-out is that Pennsylvania's behavior leads to:

"You're gonna watch your sister die to a bomb all over again. Only this time it'll be all your fault."

Because seriously, that IS where it leads.

You can sympathize with her, or not. But it's worth reflecting that her sheer level of unrelenting hate is endangering her life, and that of others, and crippling her ability to do what needs doing- namely, killing Abyssals. So go ahead and sympathize. But I wouldn't waste mental energy trying to come up with reasons why Pennsylvania isn't being so unreasonable after all.

What she's doing is insane, in the literal sense of mental illness. It can be sympathized with, it can be understood, but it can't be treated as a valid or reasonable point of view.

She was a harsh, especially when she mentioned "I don't give a single rotten fuck" about Pennsy's problems, but her conduct was appropriate, having personal problems just before an operation could lead to terrible fuck ups, an considering Shinano's willpower, which has the strength of wet toilet paper, i agree with your statement.
Oh, Shinano has plenty of willpower.

What she doesn't have is self-confidence.
 
Pennsylvania's attitude is (literally) insane and dysfunctional.

Insane and dysfunctional??..not really, i think it's more towards "Pennsy is mad with grief and pain with all the hallmarks of a shell shocked veteran." Insane and dysfunctional would imply that Pennsy is literally insane and is beyond saving. What she needs right now is lots of heavy duty counselling...lots of it....

You can sympathize with her, or not. But it's worth reflecting that her sheer level of unrelenting hate is endangering her life, and that of others, and crippling her ability to do what needs doing- namely, killing Abyssals. So go ahead and sympathize. But I wouldn't waste mental energy trying to come up with reasons why Pennsylvania isn't being so unreasonable after all.

What she's doing is insane, in the literal sense of mental illness. It can be sympathized with, it can be understood, but it can't be treated as a valid or reasonable point of view.

Hmmm sounds like you dislike/hate Pennsy. Well that's understandable, each to his own i suppose.

Oh, Shinano has plenty of willpower.

What she doesn't have is self-confidence.

I stand corrected, Shinano has the self-confidence level of wet toilet paper.
 
Insane and dysfunctional??..not really, i think it's more towards "Pennsy is mad with grief and pain with all the hallmarks of a shell shocked veteran." Insane and dysfunctional would imply that Pennsy is literally insane and is beyond saving. What she needs right now is lots of heavy duty counselling...lots of it....
I am using 'insane' along the lines of the dictionary definition. Pennsylvania is "In a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill."

And I am using 'dysfunction' in the literal sense of "not operating normally or properly; deviating from the norms of social behavior in a way regarded as bad."

Arizona was, when summoned, a borderline case herself. She's made tremendous progress and gotten a lot better- but she was definitely dysfunctional at first. Read her early appearances in the story if you don't believe me.

Pennsylvania is more dysfunctional, and her inability to control those dysfunctional behaviors rises to the level of a serious mental illness. Especially in the context of having to work with the Japanese for the collective sake of humanity.

Hmmm sounds like you dislike/hate Pennsy.
I bear her no ill will, but I'm very worried that her anger and dysfunctions will cause harm to the fleet. Possibly enough harm to outweigh the good done by her combat performance.

There's a reason why soldiers can get medical discharges for psychiatric conditions. It doesn't mean anyone hates them. It means they cannot be in a place where lives may depend on their correct behavior.

Because there's a limit on how much insanity a fighting organization can cope with and still fight effectively.

If the war situation weren't utterly desperate, I'd advocate exactly that for Pennsylvania- that she be medically discharged and placed in therapy until such time as she can work with the Japanese without strangling them.

More pragmatically, I'd say send her over to Britain, but that is literally on the other side of the world and operational necessities don't permit that as a short-term solution, even if it might be a necessary medium-term solution.

I stand corrected, Shinano has the self-confidence level of wet toilet paper.
Agreed.
 
I am using 'insane' along the lines of the dictionary definition. Pennsylvania is "In a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill."

And I am using 'dysfunction' in the literal sense of "not operating normally or properly; deviating from the norms of social behavior in a way regarded as bad."

Fair enough.

Arizona was, when summoned, a borderline case herself. She's made tremendous progress and gotten a lot better- but she was definitely dysfunctional at first. Read her early appearances in the story if you don't believe me.

I know, but it was never this bad, and in Ari's case she took it upon herself to get better.

I bear her no ill will, but I'm very worried that her anger and dysfunctions will cause harm to the fleet. Possibly enough harm to outweigh the good done by her combat performance.

There's a reason why soldiers can get medical discharges for psychiatric conditions. It doesn't mean anyone hates them. It means they cannot be in a place where lives may depend on their correct behavior.

Because there's a limit on how much insanity a fighting organization can cope with and still fight effectively.

If the war situation weren't utterly desperate, I'd advocate exactly that for Pennsylvania- that she be medically discharged and placed in therapy until such time as she can work with the Japanese without strangling them.

More pragmatically, I'd say send her over to Britain, but that is literally on the other side of the world and operational necessities don't permit that as a short-term solution, even if it might be a necessary medium-term solution.

My thoughts exactly, there is a difference between blind rage and focused wrath, that being said though, why Britain of all places?
 
I know, but it was never this bad, and in Ari's case she took it upon herself to get better.
Exactly my point. If she hadn't, then by now either she'd have died all over again, or she'd have caused the Sasebo fleet more harm than good.

My thoughts exactly, there is a difference between blind rage and focused wrath,
If she can't focus her wrath on this century's real enemy, then her wrath is indeed blind...

that being said though, why Britain of all places?
Because in the context of Belated Battleships canon, Britain is heavily embattled and dependent on the Royal Navy shipgirl force, just as the Japanese depend on the IJN shipgirl force. Since Pennsylvania has no burning personal grudge against the RN, she might at least be able to contribute usefully to the war effort there. Whereas unless she makes progress dealing with her psychiatric problems, she isn't going to be able to contribute usefully to the war effort in the Pacific.

The two places in the world where a 21-knot 14" gun battleship are most urgently needed are the west Pacific and the east Atlantic (Sky's Eurobotes stories). If Pennsylvania can't function in one of those places, and if operational realities permit, transferring her to the other place is a sensible compromise from a military point of view.
 
Actually, if we're talking where to send Pennsy, under the thought that she cannot stay in Japan, then I would say in Australia or perhaps the Philippines where she could be used to keep the SCS clear. And at the same time she would feel like she was close enough to Arizona just in case.
 
Actually, if we're talking where to send Pennsy, under the thought that she cannot stay in Japan, then I would say in Australia or perhaps the Philippines where she could be used to keep the SCS clear. And at the same time she would feel like she was close enough to Arizona just in case.
But Australia is providing its shipgirls as one of the task forces for this operation. Pennsylvania would still have to interact with the Japanese shipgirls.
 
Actually, if we're talking where to send Pennsy, under the thought that she cannot stay in Japan, then I would say in Australia or perhaps the Philippines where she could be used to keep the SCS clear. And at the same time she would feel like she was close enough to Arizona just in case.
If Sky's posts are any guide, operations in Australia will still require her to work with Japanese shipgirls, because it's not like the Australians have many of their own. And the Philippines are too exposed; she'd be operating effectively alone without support the USN shipgirls lack the numbers to provide. Unless, again, she works with Japanese shipgirls.

Standard battleships are designed to function as part of a fleet. Literally everything about them is configured for large fleet actions a la Jutland. And the only shipgirl fleet on the planet large enough to integrate Pennsylvania, that Pennsylvania doesn't have rage issues with, is the RN.
 
The Burkes on the other hand are AA machines. Or will leveling effect nerf them too?

The way the leveling effect works, more or less, is that stuff from 1945 is competitive with present day stuff. So how badly the leveling effect works on something depends on how competitive it is with present day stuff.

The Burkes have been the best AAW destroyers in the world from the day USS Arleigh Burke was commissioned.
Basically, the Burkes are going to be slightly worse than the Atlanta-class CLAAs. (If there were any Ticonderoga-class CGs available, they'd be the equivalent of an Atlanta, as they remain slightly better at AAW and ASuW than a Burke. Ironically, they might actually be better than a Flight-I Burke at ASW, what with having the helicopter and hangar...) You might put the Burkes at the level of the Forrest Sherman-class DDs that started coming out right around the end of the war--essentially, they were Fletchers that replaced the five single 5"/38 mounts with three twin 5"/38s, giving them one more gun and more centerline space for other weapons like torpedo mounts and/or Bofors quads.

That's for surface ship and air-launched torps. SSNs and SSBNs still carry heavyweight 21" torpedoes, namely the massively powerful MK48.

I don't think any WW2 sub is gonna be launching those anytime soon.
Ironically...

IRL, the Taiwanese Navy has two WW2 veteran submarines sold to them in the 60s as training boats by the USN, one Balao-class and one Tench-class. While the terms of the transfer saw their torpedo tubes welded shut prior to the sale so that they could only be used for training purposes (in particular, as ASW training targets), they have since had said tubes restored to operation (sometime in the 1970s). What's more, the Taiwanese Navy does have a stockpile of Mark 48 ADCAPs that they officially bought for their more recent boats... but the ADCAP will fit into the tubes on those old girls just fine, and modifying the tubes to operate the ADCAP's control-setting gear is a minor thing. It's quite likely that, in any war scenario, those two WW2 boats would be loaded up with ADCAPs that they are under orders to use in Bearing-Only Launch mode (where it basically is a straight-runner until it detects a target on its own, then starts autonomous homing).

Granted, an ADCAP would be comparable to either a late-war Mark 14 or a Japanese Type 95 (smaller version of the "Long Lance" for submarine use), courtesy of the levelling effect, but it's still a case of a WW2 sub being able to launch a Mark 48. (Amusing sidenote: A few years back, the old Mark 4 Torpedo Data Computer on one of the boats broke down, so the Taiwanese Navy contacted the USN for technical support, as per the transfer agreement. The USN's reply was, "...bwuh? Uh, I don't think we've had anyone who knows how to work on one of those since... 1970? At the latest?", and the Taiwanese instead had to contract with the only place that did have experience working on the old Mark 4 TDC, the crew from the Pampanito that had just restored her TDC to operational status.)
 
*shrug*

Historically, the 262 was fitted with radar for night combat, and the Abyssal ones are specifically stated to be the four-engined 262-C variant. So they could probably lift a Fritz-X. I'm not sure the hardpoints can handle the strain(in fact, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to), but the two-engined 262-B had a max load of 1,500 kg, and a Fritz-X is 1632 kg. So the four engined model should have the power to carry a Fritz-X.

TL,DR - The Abyssal 262-Cs probably have the power to lift a Fritz-X, but nowhere to put it. So discussion of Fritz-Xs isn't entirely dumb. Just an instance of not thinking things all the way through.
 
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IRL, the Chinese Navy has two WW2 veteran submarines sold to them in the 60s as training boats by the USN, one Balao-class and one Tench-class. While the terms of the transfer saw their torpedo tubes welded shut prior to the sale so that they could only be used for training purposes (in particular, as ASW training targets), they have since had said tubes restored to operation (sometime in the 1970s). What's more, the Chinese Navy does have a stockpile of Mark 48 ADCAPs that they officially bought for their more recent boats... but the ADCAP will fit into the tubes on those old girls just fine, and modifying the tubes to operate the ADCAP's control-setting gear is a minor thing. It's quite likely that, in any war scenario, those two WW2 boats would be loaded up with ADCAPs that they are under orders to use in Bearing-Only Launch mode (where it basically is a straight-runner until it detects a target on its own, then starts autonomous homing).

Granted, an ADCAP would be comparable to either a late-war Mark 14 or a Japanese Type 95 (smaller version of the "Long Lance" for submarine use), courtesy of the levelling effect, but it's still a case of a WW2 sub being able to launch a Mark 48. (Amusing sidenote: A few years back, the old Mark 4 Torpedo Data Computer on one of the boats broke down, so the Chinese Navy contacted the USN for technical support, as per the transfer agreement. The USN's reply was, "...bwuh? Uh, I don't think we've had anyone who knows how to work on one of those since... 1970? At the latest?", and the Chinese instead had to contract with the only place that did have experience working on the old Mark 4 TDC, the crew from the Pampanito that had just restored her TDC to operational status.)
Jersey: Fixed that for ya.
*shrug*

Historically, the 262 was fitted with radar for night combat, and the Abyssal ones are specifically stated to be the four-engined 262-C variant. So they could probably lift a Fritz-X. I'm not sure the hardpoints can handle the strain(in fact, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to), but the two-engined 262-B had a max load of 1,500 kg, and a Fritz-X is 1632 kg. So the four engined model should have the power to carry a Fritz-X.

TL:DR - The Abyssal 262-Cs probably have the power to lift a Fritz-X, but nowhere to put it. So discussion of Fritz-Xs isn't entirely dumb. Just an instance of not thinking things all the way through.
What are you talking about, the 262-C had two engines plus two rocket motors. I think you're thinking of the Ar 234.
 
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