Belated Battleships (KanColle) [REHOST]

[Simon_Jester]

Levelling effect will "nerf" AEGIS destroyers in the sense that they'll perform like the most ferociously effective "Wow, that is a stupidly big destroyer" destroyers of World War Two.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they manage to perform on par with Atlantas.

@Simon_Jester there's where there's a gray area, because while the Harrier has never been competitive with the main fighters of its day*, its missiles, on the other hand...

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The way I figure it, in the WWII comparison frame of reference, guided missiles don't even exist. There is no such thing as a good/bad/ugly "WWII guided air to air missile."

So the leveling effect would presumably fall back on comparison of the planes themselves.

 

[LudicrousSpeedGo]

Bonhomme Richard is the steel-hulled amphibious assault ship, there to provide a Marine contingent for seizing the island. Not one of the carriers of that name. Not going to be contributing much to the air defenses.

Levelling. Effect.

[sighs]

An Abyssal jet fighter from 1945 is competitive with the best modern fighter aircraft. It just is. Deal with it.

A Harrier, even armed with high-end air to air missiles, is not.

Do not expect the very small number of Harriers Bonhomme Richard could realistically be carrying to play much of a role in this action.

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Do more research, mate.

LHD-6 carries a half dozen Harriers, and 20+ AIM-9X capable helos. Plus RAM and Sea Sparrow.

The -262 is not comparable to modern fighters, its purely a high speed slash and dash plane. In WW2, p-51s downed them if they drew them into a turning battle. Against top class AIMs and the Standard Missile? Toast.

And since WOG says Burkes are still murderously effective AA platforms, guided missiles still workon some level.


And while you're correct that the Harrier is Air to Air capable, not a fighter, it is operating in conjuction with top class WW2 fighters and the best gun and missile AA platforms around. The air is going to get kinda thick as the humans deny Air Power to the Abyssals.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Okay, I'm done slowly repeating the words "levelling effect." I've made my point, it's been ignored, goodbye.

 

[Spectre]

Burkes from what WOG has stated are about the equivalent of an Atlanta each, and are about the only things that might work, the Shidens don't stand a chance of catching a 262 outside of when the latter's at takeoff or landing. The Harriers are little more then cannon fodder (I think it was mentioned in one of the earlier parts that missiles are basically back to Vietnam levels of efficiency) and if baka bombs are anthing to go by, and kills by the girls AA will come from pure luck.

 

[LudicrousSpeedGo]

Okay, I'm done slowly repeating the words "levelling effect." I've made my point, it's been ignored, goodbye.

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Not ignored, you just missed WOG about guided missiles vis a vis the Burkes.

As near as I can tell, an ME-262 against a leveled AIM or SAM is going to be similar to an F-104 against the SA-2... a losing fight.

Plus, the humans' objective is not to down Abyssal fighters; it's to keep them off the BBs until they murder their Airfield and run out of gas.

 

[PAGDTenno]

Not ignored, you just missed WOG about guided missiles vis a vis the Burkes.

As near as I can tell, an ME-262 against a leveled AIM is going to be similar to an F-104 against the SA-2... a losing fight.

Plus, the humans' objective is not to down Abyssal fighters; it's to keep them off the BBs until they murder their Airfield and run out of gas.

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Leveling effect depends on the platform. Why? Fucking magic bullshit. It's not going to affect the AAMs from the Burkes the same way it affects the AAMs from the Harriers.

Now, general characteristics of planes seem to persist through leveling effect, so the 262 will probably still be an energy fighter, not a turnfighter.... which means if Shinano's Shidens can force the 262s into a turnfight, the 262s are gonna get murderized. Horribly.

You theoretically could take postwar 21" torpedoes. Hell, they fit them to Fletchers after the war, but the thing is after WW2 us torpedo doctrine changed.

Torpedoes became an ASW only weapon. Ranges and warhead size shrank to the point of them being next to useless against surface targets.

Now modern torps are another story. We moved to a 12.75" torp around the time of Vietnam. That hardware is not compatible at all.

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That's for surface ship and air-launched torps. SSNs and SSBNs still carry heavyweight 21" torpedoes, namely the massively powerful MK48.

I don't think any WW2 sub is gonna be launching those anytime soon.

 

[Spectre]

Leveling effect depends on the platform. Why? Fucking magic bullshit. It's not going to affect the AAMs from the Burkes the same way it affects the AAMs from the Harriers.

Now, general characteristics of planes seem to persist through leveling effect, so the 262 will probably still be an energy fighter, not a turnfighter.... which means if Shinano's Shidens can force the 262s into a turnfight, the 262s are gonna get murderized. Horribly.



That's for surface ship and air-launched torps. SSNs and SSBNs still carry heavyweight 21" torpedoes, namely the massively powerful MK48.

I don't think any WW2 sub is gonna be launching those anytime soon.

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isn't the shiden an energy fighter as well, and still piloted by relatively green pilots against what are likely to be the likes of Jagdverband 44 in the 262's if the last Abyssal carrier was any indication.

 

[theJMPer]

Everyone wanting nukes, ayy lmao. Come on, people. Shipgirl magic bullshit is a thing, but it's not so much of a thng that a girl with a 1945 fitout can reach a decade plus into the future and pull nuke shells out of her ass.

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This. And modern nukes aren't gonna be effective against Abyssals because of the leveling effect. Crossroads used the biggest bomb ever built, and several of the ships involved were barely even incapacitated. That's the kind of damage we can expect if we drop a Tsar Bomba, with smaller nukes scaling down respectively.

Bonhomme Richard's a Wasp-class amphib. While she can carry about 20-odd Harriers (actually @theJMPer shouldn't she have F-35s by now?), that's in pure Sea Control Ship configuration. In present amphibious assault config she'd be carrying much less, maybe around 4-6 Harriers at best, in order to have more space dedicated to MV-22s and CH-53Es to deploy Marines to the beach and Cobras to cover those Marines. And that's a problem, because while the Harrier is a great aircraft and all, levelling effect is going to work against it. It's basically got a similar kinematic profile to the old A-4 Skyhawk, except the A-4 is faster, has better range, and a ridiculously higher roll rate. This is why the F-35B was such a big deal for the USMC and everyone who wanted to upgrade from Harriers.

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The USMC only reached initial operating capacity (with a paltry 50 fighters) on July 31st, 2015, a full year after the war broke out. Bonnie Dick's stuck with Harriers for now.

The -262 is not comparable to modern fighters, its purely a high speed slash and dash plane. In WW2, p-51s downed them if they drew them into a turning battle. Against top class AIMs and the Standard Missile? Toast.

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Leveling effect, yo. An Abyssal 262 will fight on par with an F-22.

 

[PAGDTenno]

isn't the shiden an energy fighter as well, and still piloted by relatively green pilots against what are likely to be the likes of Jagdverband 44 in the 262's if the last Abyssal carrier was any indication.

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The Shidens are energy fighters, but they can turnfight. 262s can't for crap.

 

[LudicrousSpeedGo]

Leveling effect, yo. An Abyssal 262 will fight on par with an F-22.

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Can I ask you to be consistent with universe rules? If ship characteristics influence level effects, the plane characteristics should too.

 

[Simon_Jester]

LSG, he is being consistent. He really, really is.

Big nasty almost-a-cruiser AA destroyer with AEGIS performs, against Abyssals, like a big nasty almost-a-cruiser World War Two AA destroyer: somewhere in the range between the late-war USN destroyers, and the Atlanta-class.

Murderously fast, agile interceptor with supermaneuverability, stealth, and AIM-920-SLAMARAMA missiles performs, against Abyssals, like a murderously fast, agile, World War Two interceptor. Like an Me-262, or perhaps more applicably a P-80.

VTOL ground attack aircraft with the weapons for air-to-air but not the sensors or maneuverability performs, against Abyssals, like a World War Two ground attack craft with the weapons for air-to-air but not the sensors or maneuverability. Like, oh, I don't know. A late-war Hurricane with the rocket pods and stuff?

...

And anomalies like Abyssals being impossible to hit with guided missiles, or radar/sonar not working right, or whatever, will apply to whatever effect is required to make that happen.

Focus on the weapon systems and the platforms, not the weapons themselves, and the leveling effect is so easy to understand and is very consistent.

It is literally that simple.

 

[Spectre]

Can I ask you to be consistent with universe rules? If ship characteristics influence level effects, the plane characteristics should too.

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he is though just like the F-22 is considered a full Generation better than the Teen series and it's contemporaries, so is the ME-262(gen2 compared to gen 1 for ever allied plane outside of the Meteor)

 

[Whiskey Golf]

The USMC only reached initial operating capacity (with a paltry 50 fighters) on July 31st, 2015, a full year after the war broke out. Bonnie Dick's stuck with Harriers for now.

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Huh. I'm off by a decade, I was thinking it was in 2025. Oh, right. GG and Eternity. Damnit Whiskey. ._.

Well while Far Cry Primal is installing I may as well try to write Belated Missile Cruisers and show people how you do cold war shipgirls.

 

[Harry Leferts]

Do more research, mate.

LHD-6 carries a half dozen Harriers, and 20+ AIM-9X capable helos. Plus RAM and Sea Sparrow.

The -262 is not comparable to modern fighters, its purely a high speed slash and dash plane. In WW2, p-51s downed them if they drew them into a turning battle. Against top class AIMs and the Standard Missile? Toast.

And since WOG says Burkes are still murderously effective AA platforms, guided missiles still workon some level.


And while you're correct that the Harrier is Air to Air capable, not a fighter, it is operating in conjuction with top class WW2 fighters and the best gun and missile AA platforms around. The air is going to get kinda thick as the humans deny Air Power to the Abyssals.

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Those helos by the way? At best, they'll be comparible to Sikorsky R-4 Hoverfly. In other words... mincemeat for the Abyssal fighters.

 

[PAGDTenno]

Helos are awful in air-to-air. Their primary purpose is ground attack.

 

[LudicrousSpeedGo]

LSG, he is being consistent. He really, really is.

Focus on the weapon systems and the platforms, not the weapons themselves, and the leveling effect is so easy to understand and is very consistent.

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Except, no he isn't and no it's not.

1. obsolete F-4s against Zeros? How well would a p-26 or p-36 fare? How did the Allied Zeros keep up with the Phantoms?
2. Battlecruiser Princess. Because the PBY patrol bombers magically disappeared from history.
3. F-2s waiting on the -109s to die before attacking the Stukas.
4. ShIp and weapon characteristics matter... to the point of early vs late war Mk 14s. Plane characteristics (wildcats, zeros) get handwaved away at the system level

Don't get me wrong, I get that it serves the narrative and is reflective of a middling acquintance with WW2 aircraft and a passing nod to post war planes. But consistent it ain't.

 

[Spectre]

Except, no he isn't and no it's not.

1. obsolete F-4s against Zeros? How well would a p-26 or p-36 fare? How did the Allied Zeros keep up with the Phantoms?
2. Battlecruiser Princess. Because the PBY patrol bombers magically disappeared from history.
3. F-2s waiting on the -109s to die before attacking the Stukas.
4. ShIp and weapon characteristics matter... to the point of early vs late war Mk 14s. Plane characteristics (wildcats, zeros) get handwaved away at the system level

Don't get me wrong, I get that it serves the narrative and is reflective of a middling acquintance with WW2 aircraft and a passing nod to post war planes. But consistent it ain't.

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for point 3 those weren't 109's they were 190's AKA the plane that gave even late model 51's and tempests a run for their money over Europe.

 

[theJMPer]

obsolete F-4s against Zeros? How well would a p-26 or p-36 fare? How did the Allied Zeros keep up with the Phantoms?

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Are you talking about Iron's Omake a while back? And for the record P-36s didn't have an atrocious time during the war. Not as good as a late-war plane, but solid enough to splash a few Zeros and hold its own against a spitfire. F-4s are likewise decent--but not spectacular--in the modern world.

Battlecruiser Princess. Because the PBY patrol bombers magically disappeared from history.

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I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. There were a few PBYs that menaced the convoy across the arctic ocean, but they were all either shot down or stayed away from the battle once it began in earnest.

F-2s waiting on the -109s to die before attacking the Stukas.

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The weren't 109's, they were FW-190's. Top-tier aircraft in their time who could give even late-model Mustangs, Tempests, and Spitfires a run for their money with a good pilot behind the stick. The F-2s on the other hand are basically an outgrowth of the F-16. Decent airframes, but solidly in the last generation. It'd be like throwing Hurricane Mk Is against the butcher birds, so Shinano's Shidens took point and thinned the pack's escorts.

ShIp and weapon characteristics matter... to the point of early vs late war Mk 14s. Plane characteristics (wildcats, zeros) get handwaved away at the system level

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You lost me here.

 

[Skywalker_T-65]

Honestly, straight stat comparisons are going to be iffy to begin with. The Finns made Buffalos- planes infamously bad in the Pacific -dance against the Soviets. Similarly, they made Hawks do much the same.

So saying they're 'decent enough planes' like an F-4 is perfectly accurate honestly. If you know how to use it, the plane suddenly can at least make the enemy bleed...

Which is about what is being said here, from how I understand it.

 

[FC Error]

I'm just wondering why the generation/relative age of human fighters matters; obviously the levelling effect gives no fucks about age, so I'd argue that any fighter regarded as good "in its day" would have at least a decent chance. Not lolstomping, but not just getting slaughtered either. So a Butcherbird and Raptor, for example, would be on fairly even terms. Not so a Wildcat and, say, a Hornet.

Which, uh, does make me wonder why a bunch of Eagles got rekt by ABCP's escorts, but the comparitively-huge Lancers were fine...? I mean, I assume that was solely for the dramatic rescue, but... wat?

 

[Spectre]

I'm just wondering why the generation/relative age of human fighters matters; obviously the levelling effect gives no fucks about age, so I'd argue that any fighter regarded as good "in its day" would have at least a decent chance. Not lolstomping, but not just getting slaughtered either. So a Butcherbird and Raptor, for example, would be on fairly even terms. Not so a Wildcat and, say, a Hornet.

Which, uh, does make me wonder why a bunch of Eagles got rekt by ABCP's escorts, but the comparitively-huge Lancers were fine...? I mean, I assume that was solely for the dramatic rescue, but... wat?

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the f-15's tried a high angle attack against a fully functioning AB Sara with late war AA protection with 3 Atlanta's as escort. By the time the B-1's had shown up at least 1 Atlanta had sunk and the remaining ships had been shot to hell and the bombers were flying at extremely low level, making them harder to spot on radar.

 

[Whiskey Golf]

I'm just wondering why the generation/relative age of human fighters matters; obviously the levelling effect gives no fucks about age, so I'd argue that any fighter regarded as good "in its day" would have at least a decent chance. Not lolstomping, but not just getting slaughtered either. So a Butcherbird and Raptor, for example, would be on fairly even terms. Not so a Wildcat and, say, a Hornet.

Which, uh, does make me wonder why a bunch of Eagles got rekt by ABCP's escorts, but the comparitively-huge Lancers were fine...? I mean, I assume that was solely for the dramatic rescue, but... wat?

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Good in its day is one thing, but the standard of today is now the F-22 and F-35 soooo.....

Again, even in its day, the Harrier was not a competitive fighter.

Helos are awful in air-to-air. Their primary purpose is ground attack.

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A note: Big Dick is going to be heavy of MV-22s and CH-53s. Transports. An LHD doesn't really carry many Harriers or Cobras, and the bulkmof its embarked air wing is going to be used for moving that battalion of marines onboard...

 

[Zone-Meister]

Only had time to read up through the end of Jersey chewing out Pennsylvania, but I like it!

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I'm sure you did, however i can't blame Pennsy for being who she is now. Her rage at the Japanese shipgirls and her inability to forgive them is understandable, after all, having your sister and friends murdered in front of you in a surprise attack hardly does wonders for the mind does it?. Furthermore, Pennsy has, IMHO, a "All Japanese shipgirls are Imperial Japanese" mentality. This is blatantly wrong on her part, for reasons that are obviously apparent, but then again, no amount of saying sorry can fix the scars that have been caused by war. Pennsy is scarred, WW2 has latched onto her and refuses to let go and this exacerbated by the attack on Pearl and the gruesome death of her loved ones and the fact that Imperial Japan rampaged throughout Asia and behaved abysmally (understatement), which, in turn, fuels her hatred and "never forgiving" attitude even more. This also makes sense. Shipgirls care for humanity in general, not just their respective countries and citizens....so it can easily be implied that Pennsy feels what the rest of the people in other nations suffered under the Japanese boot. (Admittedly, this is just guesswork on my part, in the story Pennsy rage is stemmed from the fact that the Japanese attacked and killed her friends and sisters, no where does it state her concerns for anyone else, i'm just basing this on a shipgirls natural instinct to embody the best of humanity, so naturally, crimes committed against humanity would resound greatly with them)

Ultimately though, this a situation where there is no right or wrong answer, on one hand, you can say that Pennsy is selfish and refuses to forgive and forget, and that she should focus on trying to see the future, on the other hand, scars that are this deep can never go away, there are still raw wounds that may never heal (people who suffered under the Imperials at the time still never forgive the Japanese, even now, save for a few), war itself has a nasty tendency of latching itself unto a person and changing them, especially in moments where it becomes personal and Imperial Japan really was that terrible at the time.

I guess the saying was true to an extent.

"No one wins in war, it is true, there are degrees of loss, but no one wins."

Jersey is officering! Or possibly carrier-protecting. Or both!

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She was a harsh, especially when she mentioned "I don't give a single rotten fuck" about Pennsy's problems, but her conduct was appropriate, having personal problems just before an operation could lead to terrible fuck ups, an considering Shinano's willpower, which has the strength of wet toilet paper, i agree with your statement.

 

[Burning Baron]

"No one wins in war, it is true, there are degrees of loss, but no one wins."

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'War does not determine who is right, only who is left.' -Bertrand Russel.

She was a harsh, especially when she mentioned "I don't give a single rotten fuck" about Pennsy's problems, but her conduct was appropriate, having personal problems just before an operation could lead to terrible fuck ups, an considering Shinano's willpower, which has the strength of wet toilet paper, i agree with your statement.

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No officer, regardless of disposition, will tolerate dissension in the ranks. Not to mention that J is, subconsciously or no, doing her duty. She was to protect the carriers, no matter what. And, in Shinano's case, she's also protecting a friend. I know the feeling. There are two people in the world that aren't family that I will go to the mat for, no matter what.

 

[Zone-Meister]

In regards to the leveling effect, i think i got an idea of how it works.

Imagine a scale 1-10. With 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. An F-22, being a top-of-the-line modern fighter, would rate as a 10. Similarly, a Me-262 would rate as a 10 on the Abyssal side. When these top-tier weapons on both side fight, the F-22 would be the clear winner.

In a perfect world, I'd agree with you, but I'm being conservative in my expectations because of the leveling effect. Which compares aircraft as they are today vs abyssal equivalents as they were then. F-22s would curbstomp abyssal air. F-35s likewise, because these aircraft are the tops today. The Harrier has never been tops even when it first came out - it was already badly outclassed kinematically by the Teen Fighters and the Fulcrums and Flankers back in the Cold War, and that's just gotten worse in the decades after.

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However, if the Me-262 goes up against a Harrier or Mig-21, both rated on a scale of 5, then it's a complete slaughter.I estimate that It would take human aircraft at a scale of 8-9 to match Scale 10 Abyssal aircraft and Scale 10 human aircraft e.g F-22's that can truly overpower Scale 10 Abyssal aircraft.

I hope this fits what many have described on the leveling effect. Feel free to correct me.