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Attempting to Shatter the Skies: An Ace Combat Plan Quest

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Once again good job everyone with their proposals! That been said what happens next, is there going to be vote to choose one of them?

Also glad to have another "super plane project" among the proposals
 
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Anyway, if we want to go nuclear, SILEX might be interesting. It uses lasers to seperate isotopes, is within the right timeframe, and would allow us to enrich a lot of material at low power cost.

Then, all we need to do is diphon of sone material...
 
I am biased towards DAWN SHEPHERD (obviously) but those side effects of the use of nuclear ramjets I hadn't expected. Don't think they're going to be any issue though, not needing as much ground based infrastructure means more progress can be poured into actually completing the interceptor and while I hadn't expected fissile production to be a major issue there are multiple ways around it. That's not really a problem specific to only DAWN SHEPHERD either, anything that's doing something nuclear in either bombs or powerplants is going to need to tackle it.

If not an interceptor plane though, I'm waffling between either JOYEUSE or ALBATROSS.

What kind of mandates do people think would go best with DAWN SHEPHERD then, since that's the part I'm least sure about? Covering Aurelia is an easy inclusion with a Huge project, and maybe Secure Imports if we're looking to try and source our nuclear material and some other parts abroad?
 
I personally would like to draw the other Artic countries into GDI. So we could take the mandate to expand GDI if we plan to do that.
 
It would probably be of more benefit to us to bring in Aurelia, which is immediately next door to land we have occupation/garrisoning over, and which is a LOT richer than any of the Antarctic states.
 
Alright, that all makes sense. Trying to get Aurelia to join and contribute funding if we're extending protection regardless is good, and with Secure Trade to ensure that we can procure uranium from elsewhere that's our three minimum.

Any others that we think wouldn't be an issue to fit in? How hard do we think it'll be to stop the population flight, or how many benefits would the research institutions bring for this project? Interior Logistics would have a good chance of being helpful if we looked our own local uranium to mine instead depending on where it's found, but we don't know where that will be yet or if we even will find some.
 
7th Hex said:
Any others that we think wouldn't be an issue to fit in? How hard do we think it'll be to stop the population flight, or how many benefits would the research institutions bring for this project?
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Stopping the population flight is almost certainly going to take one of a short list of things, as I see it:

1) Oppressive deployment of troops or spies to control movement in Chaldea.
2) Mass conscription of the Chaldean population into controlled facilities, which connects to (1).
3) Such a vigorous, aggressive campaign of bunker/shelter construction in Chaldea, specifically that no Chaldean can reasonably doubt that they will survive Ulysses where they are with the means to rebuild.
4) To some extent we can mitigate brain drain, a specific part of the reason the Chaldeans are worrying about this, by hiring Chaldean experts. This will not do much to limit flight of refugees who don't have skills useful to us, or who just want to get out of Antarctica even if offered a job.

...

Now, the problem here is that of these options, only (4), the least effective, is 'low cost' for us.

(3) is high cost BUT specifically aligns well with strategies that involve just obsessively building bunkers or seawalls and don't really concern themselves with making any superweapons.

(2) is at risk of involving us getting into extra-spicy atrocity territory...

And (1) has that problem AND the problem of not being directly connected to building an anti-Ulysses defense AND the problem of involving deployment of exactly the kind of troop forces we are very, very overstretched with because of our starting conditions.

...

So frankly, I don't think stopping the Chaldean population flight is a viable mandate for us, unless we are investing heavily in bunkers or seawalls as our primary response to Ulysses in which case we can pursue strategy (3) as the core of our plans.

Silvis said:
If we're protecting all of the Antarctic continent. Then protecting those historic sites should be pretty easy.
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The historic sites we're being commissioned to protect are going to be in the territory of the two member states we already have, or the "in between" area GDI is presently occupying and administering. The Celestial Dominion probably isn't as concerned about historic lands on the other side of the continent.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The historic sites we're being commissioned to protect are going to be in the territory of the two member states we already have, or the "in between" area GDI is presently occupying and administering. The Celestial Dominion probably isn't as concerned about historic lands on the other side of the continent.
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My point is that we would be covering them anyways. So we might as well take the mandate.
 
Silvis said:
My point is that we would be covering them anyways. So we might as well take the mandate.
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I don't think that point is correct. The primary threat we're expecting is tsunamis.

If we have a surefire method of preventing any tsunamis from reaching our shores, well and good, the mandate costs us nothing- but only the most ambitious projects available have much chance of preventing all tsunami damage, because we'd need to shoot down some asteroids that are coming in far, far from our shores.

If our method relies on buildling bunkers and seawalls and so on, then protecting a hunting ground or fishery against the impact of a tsunami will require us to build defenses in wilderness areas that are not normally threatened. We'd be agreeing to cover some targets that would normally be much lower priority, extending the total amount of defenses we are committed to building and/or forcing us to divert resources away from protecting population centers, agricultural zones, and industrial capacity.
 
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The Technology of Peace
  • Threadmarks
    • June 19th, 1996.

    The past two weeks have been a whirlwind of activity within the embryonic GDI's offices, scientists and engineers revered and scorned in equal measure flocking to Antarctica to propose how best to save the world. Despite false starts and some overly enthusiastic designs, there now stood a list of ideas that were at least physically possible to build in three short years. Probably.

    The following proposals have been accepted as viable by the Global Defense Initiative:
    Final planning must now commence.


    Create a Plan which uses at least one of the above projects. You may include as many projects as desired, so long as the total estimated point cost is at least 2,500 or larger. It is not recommended to go beyond a total estimated point cost of 10,000 as that will be extremely unlikely to complete in time. Please indicate the total scope of your chosen projects in your plan.

    In addition to the project centerpiece, you must also vow to uphold and fulfill at least three mandates for the duration of the first planning period (Q3 1996 - Q3 1999). Evaluation of success or failure of these mandates will be considered only after Ulysses has impacted.

    You must select one Antarc and one Chaldea mandate, as well as one other mandate from any list, for a total of three. A Joint mandate may count for either host nation, but only counts as one. You may, if desired, take more than three. It is possible, and intended, to tailor the mandates taken to synergize with the megastructures.

    Antarc
    • Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia - the Antarc Throne has privately made it known that it would be greatly appreciated if whatever mitigation measures taken against Ulysses are also effective at safeguarding their cousins across the straits in Aurelia
    • Perform exploratory drilling - it has long been suspected that there is oil within Antarc waters, but the stoic conservatism (and conservationism) of generations of rulers have continually forestalled attempts to confirm this, with the current situation however any resource that the Celestial Dominion may be able to bring to bear is valuable
    • Protect ancestral fisheries and hunting grounds - the ancestral practices of the Antarc people have continued without interruption for over four thousand years, and they are intimately tied to the islands and shores that are most threated by planetfall, leading figures in government and among popular movements have agitated for something be done to protect them
    Chaldea
    • End population flight - Chaldeans are fleeing in droves to the safety of Anea, where many still hold citizenship and have family, poor relations between Chaldea and its mother countries has only exacerbated these tensions, and leading figures among the Bureaus are concerned of a brain drain orchestrated by Estovakia and request that it be stopped by any means
    • Establish world-class research institutions - with little in the way of natural resources, luminaries within Chaldea have approached GDI with the proposal that Brotherhood researchers assist in creating universities and laboratories that will draw scientists from around the world in an attempt for them to make their mark upon the world stage
    • Improve interior logistics - one of the largest industries of note for Chaldea is deep Antarctic research, both their own as well as providing supplies for other nations' research stations, any action taken that would ease these operations would be looked upon favorably by the Directory
    Joint
    • Create a meaningful military - the Global Defense Initiative Council, a body which at the moment consists of Kane, the Antarc ambassador, and the Chaldean ambassador, have noted that between the host nations and the irregular forces in the Brotherhood of Nod, any major power could likely invade them in the aftermath of all but the most optimistic Ulysses scenarios and bid that it be mitigated by building up GDI's military strength
    • Expand GDI - alternatively, the Council has proposed that GDI deal with its military weakness and relatively paltry funding by simply bringing more nations into the fold
    • Secure international trade - acting independently of the Council, both the Antarc and Chaldean governments have made it clear that they hoarding and financial meltdowns which have already begun in the wake of the announcement of Ulysses are expected to only get worse, and are concerned that vital imports may simply stop unless action is taken

    Example Plan:
    [ ] Wow I loved Ace Combat Five
    -[ ] Project SOLG but we actually complete it on time
    -[ ] Total Scope: Ginormous
    -[ ] Get a photo op with the Prime Minister of Yuktobania
    -[ ] Construct a space elevator
    -[ ] Rub Kane's bald head


    Vote opens ​
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • I'm all in for giant laser, so Project Stone Splitter it is for me. We chose to call ourselves the GDI, so I don't see any reason to back away from the "Global" part of the Defense Initiative! Sure, it's incredibly daring, but if we only wanted to protect our neighbors, we shouldn't have called ourselves the GDI. :p

    As for mandates, these would be ideal I believe.

    [] Plan: Global Defense
    -[] Project STONE SPLITTER
    -[] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    These are all things we want to do anyways. Aurelia's too rich to pass up on, and it synergizes with expanding the GDI which also aligns with our goals of absorbing our warring neighbors into the project. Doing so is a step towards securing international trade.

    Lastly, we do want more researchers here for our weapon project, so Chaldea's goal of a world class research institution is something we also want. Aurelia can probably help a lot in this regard, since money talks and they do have top class labs which could benefit this mandate.
     
    [] Plan: To the Skies!
    -[] Project ALBATTOSS V3
    -[] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    I believe that this will certainly be able to achieve our goals of eliminating the fragments that would threaten our coastal cities and potentially help other nations due to the range of our "arkbird". With the introduction of new members(potentially securing new funds and resources) as well as trading globally would certainly help push our project to be completed before the deadline of the Ulysses asteroid.
     
    [] Plan: In True Ace Combat Tradition.
    -[] Project DAWN SHEPHERD
    -[] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    In true Ace Combat Tradition. Let's just blow up our problems using incredibly advanced planes.
     
    My plan has some convergent evolution with @LucidProp 's Global Defense. Both revolve around a giant mega-laser. The big differences are:

    1) More mad science vibes! :D

    2) I'm not taking an extra mandate to increase international trade. That's not because I don't want to, but because I don't want us to get in trouble if we do not, in point of fact, actually wind up doing that. It is usually better not to lard down an already ambitious plan such as 'build a Huge/Monumental superweapon' with other mandatory tasks that demand your attention. It reduces your flexibility in how you go about pursuing the goal.

    3) Project JOYEUSE is, officially, rated as 'Huge,' while Project STONE SPLITTER is, officially, 'Monumental.' Very similar concepts, but for whatever reason JOYEUSE is more reasonably scaled to what we can be fairly sure of completing. Importantly, Joyeuse is actually a 'Moderate' project surrounded by some supplementary 'enhancer' projects to extend its range and capability. So while the core 5000-pointish megalaser still needs to be built, there's room for a 'partial success' rather than us being totally screwed if we only complete 90% of the overall project.

    @grimely , may I suggest that you require planmakers to post the full expected scope of their plan along with the rest? Because otherwise we're not clearly differentiating between plans that we can almost certainly fulfill (Moderate) and plans we are really going to struggle to fulfill (Monumental) for purposes of what gets voted on.

    Then we'd have:

    From @Silvis
    [] Plan: In True Ace Combat Tradition.
    -[] Project DAWN SHEPHERD
    -[] Scope: Huge
    -[] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    From @RadicalCali
    [] Plan: To the Skies!
    -[] Project ALBATROSS V3
    -[] Scope: Monumental
    -[] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    From @LucidProp
    [] Plan: Global Defense
    -[] Project STONE SPLITTER
    -[] Scope: Monumental
    -[] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    And from me:
    [] Plan: With The Aid Of My SECRET WEAPON!
    -[] Project JOYEUSE
    -[] Scope: Huge
    --[] Core Moderate laser tower project plus supplementary laser launch, reflector satellite, and beam upgrade projects
    -[] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
     
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    - []Plan: Boreal Guard
    -[] Project Joyeuse
    -[] Project Citadel
    -[] [Antarc] Protect ancestral fisheries and hunting grounds
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Chaldea] End population flight
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    (if possible Author, could this option be added?
    - [] [NOD] Increase Kane and NOD's status, image and influence through covert propaganda)

    Edit: Plan Changed

    (by the way, the title of the plan is a double joke related to the plans and command and conquer)
     
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    Radius said:
    I honestly think that Projects Solance and Joyeouse have a great synergy with each other, combined they are the perfect offensive and defensive measures to defend against Ulysses (and fulfill NOD's future ambitions), that both are similar to NOD's doctrine in the game is also somewhat ironic.
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    The catch is that if JOYEUSE or STONE SPLITTER actually works, it's going to be most effective at asteroids coming down along trajectories within or near its line of sight (headed straight for us) and least effective against asteroids that impact many thousands of kilometers to our east, around the curve of the planet. The threat is almost entirely from tsunamis caused by whatever asteroid fragments Joyeuse can't get a shot at and break up while they're still orbiting above the planet and "spiraling in" towards us.

    Project SOLACE is a series of underground 'vault' shelters, which would be pretty good at ensuring that a civilian population survives a near miss from an asteroid fragment, but would not be so great at protecting people from a tsunami. Think about what happened at Fukushima, when the flood waters from the tsunami took out the basement-mounted backup generators for the power plant's safety systems. To prevent the tidal waves from wiping out our population, we'd want to site the vaults well inland and well above sea level... in which case the function of keeping the population alive could just as well be served by shallower underground or even above-ground construction. And the property damage, of course, would still be big.

    So I disagree; I think JOYEUSE and STONE SPLITTER would have much better synergy with a system of big tsunami-mitigation seawalls to act as offshore barriers against waves, especially since the tsunamis that hit us would likely be much lower in peak height because they'd be coming at us from a long way off. Unfortunately, I can't actually find a project that fits that description...

    ...

    Conversely, Project SOLACE works very well when paired with a project that is likely to disrupt the asteroid as a whole or reduce global fragment load, but which isn't so reliable at stopping fragments that (contrary to current predictions) specifically come straight for us. For instance, a "Deep Impact" plan involving a team of oil rig workers planting a really large nuke on Ulysses might reduce the total fragment load, but could also radically change how the fragments will be distributed, so that it becomes more likely that we'd take direct hits we'd have no way of stopping.

    Long story short, SOLACE pairs well with plans like the SOLG or Arkbird that protect distant areas but don't provide "hard" coverage against direct hits from stray fragments coming down on our land directly. Something more like a seawall would pair better with plans that do provide relatively "hard" coverage, the way Excalibur or Stonehenge would.
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    So I disagree; I think JOYEUSE and STONE SPLITTER would have much better synergy with a system of big tsunami-mitigation seawalls to act as offshore barriers against waves, especially since the tsunamis that hit us would likely be much lower in peak height because they'd be coming at us from a long way off. Unfortunately, I can't actually find a project that fits that description...
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    Citadel. Also, good idea with the total scope, I'll add that.
     
    Radius said:
    - []Plan: Boreal Guard
    -[] Project Joyeuse
    -[] Project Citadel
    -[] [Antarc] Protect ancestral fisheries and hunting grounds
    -[] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
    -[] [Chaldea] End population flight
    -[] [Joint] Expand GDI
    -[] [Joint] Secure International Trade

    (if possible Author, could this option be added?
    - [] [NOD] Increase Kane and NOD's status, image and influence through covert propaganda)

    Edit: Plan Changed

    (by the way, the title of the plan is a double joke related to the plans and command and conquer)
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    I think it's a bad idea to stack up five mandates, because it means we get in trouble if we fail at those things, and some of them may be impractically hard to provide for. Citadel, a seawalls project, does allow for protection of the hunting grounds, for instance, but nothing we're doing is closely related to the task of ending population flight, and we don't have a lot of spare grunts-with-rifles manpower tochange that.
     
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    grimely said:
    Citadel. Also, good idea with the total scope, I'll add that.
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    Well, it's late in the moratorium. Unless you're planning to post the chosen plans yourself and list the sizes yourself, that may be tricky.

    Also, Citadel isn't a seawall plan, it's to build giant walls on land along the coast, I notice. This is probably not a great strategy for preserving ancestral hunting grounds, for instance, because the giant wall is going to cause ecological disruption all by itself. A wall offshore has similar problems, but still.
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    I think it's a bad idea to stack up five mandates, because it means we get in trouble if we fail at those things, and some of them may be impractically hard to provide for. Citadel, a seawalls project, does allow for protection of the hunting grounds, for instance, but nothing we're doing is closely related to the task of ending population flight, and we don't have a lot of spare grunts-with-rifles manpower tochange that.
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    while i agree on the fact that 5 mandates is too much (6 if you count the NOD Mandate I added), i still think we can accomplish the minimum needed for each one in time, some are easier than others (with the Citadel Project the mandate of the People leaving Chaldea will be a piece of cake as well as preserving the fishing spots) and others more complicated (how we are going to establish universities in other countries and maintain the trade agreements are a mystery to me, but Kane will figure it out) but in the end everything will turn out fine, both Projects are versatile when it comes to completing, sure, there will probably be parts that can't be finished in time due to the Mandates, but the rewards outweigh the disadvantages.
     
    Radius said:
    while i agree on the fact that 5 mandates is too much (6 if you count the NOD Mandate I added), i still think we can accomplish the minimum needed for each one in time, some are easier than others (with the Citadel Project the mandate of the People leaving Chaldea will be a piece of cake as well as preserving the fishing spots)
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    I really don't think so.

    First, in that I think you may be underestimating the scope of some of these projects. Second, in that specifically preserving hunting and fishing spots isn't going to be "a piece of cake" with giant anti-flood wall-fortresses built on the land, in most cases.

    ...both Projects are versatile when it comes to completing, sure, there will probably be parts that can't be finished in time due to the Mandates, but the rewards outweigh the disadvantages.
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    Joyeuse is a lot less valuable if parts of it aren't finished. And Citadel HAS to be done to a major extent under your plans becuase you're relying heavily on it to side-effect accomplish some of our mandates. I'm sorry, I just don't think we're going to be able to juggle this many balls at once.
     
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    Hm. After realizing that while there are proposals for static underground bunkers and static aboveground fortresses on land, no one actually proposed a seawall...

    Hey, @grimely , is it too late to propose this? Fairly basic in concept.

    grimely said:
    ...
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    -[] Project SHELTERING HAND
    --[] Concept: Build big anti-tsunami seawalls off the coast.
    --[] Scope: Minimal+ . Setting this up to cover, say, a single major urban area might be Minimal, but it's very scalable to cover greater lengths of coastline.
    --[] Approach: Mitigation. If the walls are high enough, the tsunami will be stopped. Of course, a close impact could create tsunamis that will overtop the wall, so it would be desirable to combine this with a mechanism for disrupting any fragments that come unexpectedly close to GDI lands.
    --[] Mobility: Aggressively Stationary.
    --[] Location: Priority zones of construction would be major coastal cities on coastlines likely to be hit by the tsunamis, expanding outward from there as resources permit.
    --[] Environmental friendliness: Imperfect. Provisions may be made for reduction/demolition of the seawalls and conversion into underwater reefs after Ulysses has passed. Unlike most anti-tsunami seawalls in real life, these walls only have to work once, during a specified interval of time.
     
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